Complicated advanced wireless lighting D850, sb 5000, sb 800.

I think this might not be possible to do but here goes. I have a d850 with wr-r10 and two flash units 5000 and 800.

I want to trigger both flashes off camera. Can you command from the camera and then have the 5000 optically flash trigger the 800??

I think using my d700 and commanding via pop up flash I could trigger both flashes optically but the second flash may not be in line of sight. For really accomplishing this wirelessly without purchasing third party remote wireless transceivers and receivers I probably need another 5000.

bdmott, So correct me if I am wrong do you want to use the D850 WrR10 combination to control the SB 5000 with the radio controlled advanced lighting system and then have the optical CLS on the SB 5000 control the SB 800 in full TTL? I would try it to see if it works but I am doubtful.

An alternative would be to put the SB800 into slave keyed off the SB5000 and control power on the 800 unit manually.

An easier way to go might be too use the SU-800 optical controller to control both 5000 and 800 optically with the CLS..

If your need is to keep hands off both units while controlling both differentially in TTL this would likely be the best way.

I prefer full manual wireless radio systems and have pretty much stopped using TTL . I don’t currently own a radio TTL

flash but have inexpensive radio transceivers to fire my SB25 and newer SB800 and SB910 flashes with manual settings.

I see your picture is in scrubs so if your trying to do intraoperative photography full TTL may suit you better. Good hunting.

bdmott, So correct me if I am wrong do you want to use the D850 WrR10 combination to control the SB 5000 with the radio controlled advanced lighting system and then have the optical CLS on the SB 5000 control the SB 800 in full TTL? I would try it to see if it works but I am doubtful.

An alternative would be to put the SB800 into slave keyed off the SB5000 and control power on the 800 unit manually.

An easier way to go might be too use the SU-800 optical controller to control both 5000 and 800 optically with the CLS..

If your need is to keep hands off both units while controlling both differentially in TTL this would likely be the best way.

I prefer full manual wireless radio systems and have pretty much stopped using TTL . I don’t currently own a radio TTL

flash but have inexpensive radio transceivers to fire my SB25 and newer SB800 and SB910 flashes with manual settings.

I see your picture is in scrubs so if your trying to do intraoperative photography full TTL may suit you better. Good hunting.

I tried it as you suggested but the 5000 is in remote mode and the flash firing does not trigger the 800. I like having the 850 control all remotes and controlling all their outputs from camera. I wanted to do a colored background via flash and gel on a black background and have other flash for subject. I know I could do it optically with the d700

The SB-800 doesn't have a dumb or pre-flash-ignore optical slave mode (commonly called S1 and S2). So if the D850 and SB-5000 support it, you'd have to use the SB-800 as the on-camera master, and the 5000 as slave, to have any chance of this working.

As I see it, if you want both flashes off-camera, you're going to have to chuck money at it to get what you want to do. Maybe a lot of money if you insist on using all Nikon-branded gear. Or there's a reasonably cheap alternative. Get a YongNuo 560 mkiii, which supports S1 and S2 optical slaving mode for your BG light. It has the exact same output power as an SB-800, at less than the cost of a TTL remote kit. And it can be triggered by a cheap YN RF-603 radio trigger.

What you've described is a fairly simple studio setup. As such, it doesn't need i-TTL control once you've established the relative flash power(s) for a good exposure. Or at worst you've got to walk a few feet to change the power on one of the flashes (Oh, boo hoo! Such hardship!).

Studio and TTL don't go together whenever I'm in control of such as setup.

I'm a Yongnou fan like RJ.

I use a YN560TX II and up to 4 YN560 MK IIIs. Balance them as you like without leaving the camera, so no walkies needed.,,,:)

I hit the same problem: historically (D700/D800/D810) I've used the on-camera flash to trigger my three SB-600s. If Nikon had given me a way to trigger them from the SB-5000 off-camera, I'd reluctantly have gone down the WR-10 route - reluctantly because I don't like the way Nikon's radio trigger attaches, especially if I wanted to use my cabled 10-pin adaptors at the same time. I believe you might be able to trigger both independently from the camera (say with an SU-800, or your SB-800 acting as a master) - but I got a load of SB-600s because I didn't need extra functionality, I vaguely wanted F5 support, they're quite big enough already, and up until then the cameras' integrated flash had been enough of a trigger, so none of my external flashes help me out by acting as a master. Also learning one SB-600 user interface is enough; mixing and matching flashes, especially given how notorious the interface of the SB-800 is, didn't appeal. Given how much I already had to pay for new cards, new card readers, vertical grip... I wasn't inclined to buy a new flash, a new optical trigger, and a new radio trigger. It feels like Nikon didn't really think about the customer story here - I really think that they could have provided a non-pop-up IR trigger in the prism housing, integrated the radio flash into the camera, and just decided that we were already paying so much for a D850 that an extra £50 of parts wouldn't have been prohibitive.

I bought a Godox X1T-N radio trigger and three X1 N flash slaves, because at least at the time they did TTL properly, when Yongnuo didn't (this may have changed) and it was the cheapest option. They're a bit bigger than the minimal Yongnuo triggers - collectively the stack (stored slotted into each other) is similar to the SB-600 in a carry case: probably fatter than an SB-800, but shorter. I'd rather be able to control exposure compensation from the camera, but at least I can change it from the master in the hotshoe, like an SU-800. I may not have had 100% reliability, but I do little enough flash shooting that it may be user error rather than the device. The whole set may or may not have been any cheaper than an SU-800, but if I'm going to pay for something bulkier and less convenient than the integrated flash, I figured I may as well go the radio route for reliability.

Pro tips: I have an ancient Nissin Di28 which works fine and I think is smaller than any alternative Nikon would sell me (it's Nikon-specific, it won't trigger on a bean slave), and the PC sync cable doesn't, I believe, trigger on pre-flash, so if you have cheap hairlights that don't understand iTTL, they can be persuaded to do some fill independently of the main iTTL metering if you don't mind dangling cables around. "Pro" in the "I have no idea what I'm doing with flash, but in case it helps I found these things out" sense, obviously.

Which reminds me, my old Jessops branded optical slave flashes might have ancient batteries in them (and not the lithiums that I normally rely on). I should probably check whether they've leaked.

Rodeo made a good point. You can shoot the SB800 in manual slave and your master SB 5000 if on or off camera will need to be in manual as well to avoid preflashes that would influence the SB800. I tried it but did not gain any insight into the influence of the preflash that I could tell was firing. The sensor on the SB800 should easily pick up preflashes and discharge but was still firing when the main flash went off and my exposure corroborated that. So much for control. So TTL is still a mystery to me.

Just to confirm I get to slave in the SB800 by pushing “SEL” for 2-3 seconds. I toggle two the right with the single tree button to the right upper quad and from there press SEL again and scroll down to SU-4 press select again and then press and hold select to get out of the menu and REMOTE is then displayed. I then use the mode button to select manual and can use the toggle in the middle to manually select power and bobs your uncle.

GODOX makes a nice manual only flash for $60 that has a built in wireless link. The flash and the separate controller both have 32 channels to choose from for firing multiple flash guns all with manual control from one point. I love my Nikon flash guns but I can buy six GODOX flashes of the same power and a controler for $100 less than a single SB5000.

TTL in my mind made sense when film was around and we could not review images in the moment. When I shot fil outdoors I only used flash for TTL fill/compensation with the TTL tuned down to - 1 2/3 to fill in shadows. Flash compensation in TTL is like using partial manual control over your flash gun anyway but the flash output is still influence by where the camera is pointed. Why would I want to do that when I could have total control. Especially in a studio but as well outside. Maybe in a very dynamic setting TTL makes sense.

bdmott, I don’t know if you have ever looked at the strobist (Dave Hobby) web site. He shoots Fuji but I think most of his techniques are transferable to Nikon gear.

I think along with Charles Needle and Tony Sweat he is someone I enjoy reading and listening to. Good hunting.

TTL in my mind made sense when film was around and we could not review images in the moment.

Spot on!

I think this might not be possible to do but here goes. I have a d850 with wr-r10 and two flash units 5000 and 800.

I want to trigger both flashes off camera. Can you command from the camera and then have the 5000 optically flash trigger the 800??

I think using my d700 and commanding via pop up flash I could trigger both flashes optically but the second flash may not be in line of sight. For really accomplishing this wirelessly without purchasing third party remote wireless transceivers and receivers I probably need another 5000.

You need an optical CLS trigger on the camera to trigger the SB-800 as a remote. This can be a flash such as SB-800, SB-700, SB-900, SB-910. SB-5000, or just a flash commander such as the SU-800. The SB-5000 can be triggered remotely using the WR-R10+WR-A10.

It is indeed a bit complicated.

It is indeed a bit complicated.

I think that part of the problem is that many of us up grade our systems piecemeal. In the last 30 years Nikon has had two optical TTL systems and one radio TTL system.

Using manual controls obviates some of the complexity. I still have my 40 year old Vivitar and Sunpack manual flashes whose capacitors I cycle occasionally and I vividly remember my fathers bulb flash guns and Honeywell Strobnar. He had a Leica range finder, a Nikon F1 Photomic and a Hasselblad all taken at gun point somewhere he did not belong on the road just outside Santa Marta, Columbia. Of course they took the car as well. For a time I could still do math in my head and could even use guide numbers underwater with a full manual Nikonos III. I kind of miss the simplicity of it. Now days if your doing a lot of flash stuff even on an amateur level like myself it makes sense to invest in a system that is fully manual and will be somewhat consistent in its components and future proof. That said radio triggering is the way to go if your going to start out. I have always wanted twin 1000W monolights but to what end. Perhaps something smaller and less obvious for my next trip to into my backyard here in the somewhat tame Shenandoah Valley. Stay frosty.

I found it valuable at least to be able to adjust the relative intensity of the flashes from the camera (or the location of the camera) - chimping is less painful than in film days, but if the flashes are set up in a small room it's still annoying to wander around to them all individually. Getting a base level of plausible flash exposure may be less of an issue, although I've been known to wave speedlights on either end of a monopod when walking around to try to improve lighting direction (so off-camera, but highly changing environment) for which I was heavily reliant on the basic flash metering. And the on-camera integrated flash trigger, of course. I wouldn't entirely trust it, but guessing the exposure manually would have been worse for me. If you just want the flashes to activate remotely and you don't mind adjusting the output of each one manually, life is definitely easier - but that was what tilted me (at the time) to Godox rather than Nissin (or using my Di28 as an optical trigger and putting everything else on manual).

Having remembered to look, one of my two non-TTL flash guns did indeed have a couple of best-before 2013 Duracells in it (the other was empty). Also the set of three colour LEDs for macro that I keep were dead (I bought a mini-penlight with a red, a green, and a blue LED so I could colour balance). Fortunately it doesn't look like anything has leaked, so that was a dodged bullet. Lithiums seem to have a better shelf life - for my SB600s I tend to leave three in the flash and one external so there's no question of trickle discharge, or leave the battery compartment open; I should probably empty them properly, but I rarely have a lot of planning time for when I want to use them, and at least this way they stay in sets of similar discharge amount. Not a problem I'd have if I were out shooting every day like a good amateur. (Between these, the old laptops I own, and a number of high powered flashlights, I kind of worry about the flammability of all the lithium batteries in my study. Of course, the smoke meter has one of the batteries I don't trust...)

If you want TTL from two remote flashes with different communications protocols, everything works, but you do need to trigger both independently from the camera, so Ilkka's:

You need an optical CLS trigger on the camera to trigger the SB-800 as a remote. This can be a flash such as SB-800, SB-700, SB-900, SB-910. SB-5000, or just a flash commander such as the SU-800. The SB-5000 can be triggered remotely using the WR-R10+WR-A10.

...statement is back to the problem of the thread: the SB-5000 can be triggered remotely, but then it's not "on the camera" to act as a CLS commander. Nikon managed to drop the ball on this, perhaps because they were hoping everyone would buy lots of SB-5000s or because lots of products got cancelled with the Sendai issues. That would be more convincing if they'd produced any other speedlights that worked with their radio wireless system, if the WR-R10/WR-A10 weren't expensive and inconvenient, or if they'd at least got around to producing a compatible trigger for existing flashes - to my mind, Nikon essentially doesn't have a radio flash system in the way it had with an optical one, and certainly don't support people incrementally building a flash system (in the way that they've maintained such good lens compatibility, mostly). Nikon pushed me to a third-party solution, and since Nikon used to be known for decent flash control and having a complete system, I'm unimpressed by whoever let that happen. Of course, you can also run cables from the hotshoe and do it that way, but Nikon over-charge for that solution too (an SC-29 is "only" $75 for a 1m cable in the US, but lists at £120 in the UK) - and the camera thinks the flash is hotshoe mounted, so it might have some delusions of the lens distance information being relevant.

Fortunately I can avoid fill flash much of the time just by using the sensor dynamic range for shadow recovery these days (and mostly avoid flash colour balance issues). I did a little (heh) macro shooting last night, could have got a flash gun... but just used the LED torch on my keys. Decent high-power flashlights (4000+lm) can be had for less then I paid for a used SB-600, and you can buy a half-decent third-party mains-powered studio rig for less than an SB-5000. Nikon really don't want my money. On the plus side, at least the D850 has an "auto flash ISO sensitivity control" configuration option.

I disagree, I think the Nikon radio AWL system is really good, and it does permit simultaneous use of optical CLS flashes. The pop-up flash always did more damage than good, and I'm happy none of my cameras (nor any of the cameras I would consider buying) have it today. The pop-up flash gets in the way of good optical design of the viewfnder, blocks my 24 PC from working without literal obstacles, slows down the camera due to its long charging period and cooling time when used, pollutes the foreground with its light, causes an unreasonable frequency of closed or half-closed eyes in portraits and group shots and produces unflattering light. The pop-up flash capacitor is an electrical safety hazard when diassembling the camera, and the pop-up flash permits water to enter the inside of the camera.

The most frequent use scenario for small flash is on the camera. Older flashes can be used until the end of their lives in this role, while the WR-R10 triggers the radio remotes. If you don't want a flash on the camera to trigger optical remotes, use the SU-800 which is quite small and lightweight.

...Duracell AA batteries

I've mentioned this before, but the only brand of AA alkalines that I've had leak rhymes with You're-a-smell.

IMO they are utter and overpriced garbage.

Just to confirm I get to slave in the SB800 by pushing “SEL” for 2-3 seconds. I toggle two the right with the single tree button to the right upper quad and from there press SEL again and scroll down to SU-4 press select.......... toggle in the middle to manually select power and bobs your uncle.

On the YN560iii it's just a couple of button presses.

I've mentioned this before, but the only brand of AA alkalines that I've had leak rhymes with You're-a-smell.

 

IMO they are utter and overpriced garbage.

I've had other brands leak. It's just that the others were cheaper. As I said to my wife earlier today, I'm considering a hard line stance on sticking to lithiums in everything, even though they cost more.

Just to confirm I get to slave in the SB800 by pushing “SEL” for 2-3 seconds. I toggle two the right with the single tree button to the right upper quad and from there press SEL again and scroll down to SU-4 press select again and then press and hold select to get out of the menu and REMOTE is then displayed. I then use the mode button to select manual and can use the toggle in the middle to manually select power and bobs your uncle.

This does confirm most of what I know about the SB800 interface. (They SB600 is a little obscure, but I only had to learn it once for three flashes, and it's a much less capable flash anyway. The SB700 is nicer.)

I disagree, I think the Nikon radio AWL system is really good, and it does permit simultaneous use of optical CLS flashes. The pop-up flash always did more damage than good, and I'm happy none of my cameras (nor any of the cameras I would consider buying) have it today. The pop-up flash gets in the way of good optical design of the viewfinder, blocks my 24 PC from working without literal obstacles, slows down the camera due to its long charging period and cooling time when used, pollutes the foreground with its light, causes an unreasonable frequency of closed or half-closed eyes in portraits and group shots and produces unflattering light. The pop-up flash capacitor is an electrical safety hazard when diassembling the camera, and the pop-up flash permits water to enter the inside of the camera.

Nikon only document that the PC-E 24mm had issues on the D700 and D300(s), I believe (feel free to send me a PC-E 24 and I'll check, if you don't want it back). I don't think other cameras with an integrated flash have any trouble. Actually, due diligence, my 35mm Kiev admittedly will foul the D810 at full shift if you try to turn it to 45 degrees (it's fine upright), but if you add a tilt then it catches the grip of the D850 too. I don't see why the pop-up flash should affect the finder design - it might make the camera taller if you want the same viewfinder optics under it, but I don't consider that to be an issue. The D810 finder is certainly longer than the D850's, but the height difference is negligible - the D810 is actually 1mm shorter than the D850:

Sure, it's a possible point of water ingress (as is the hotshoe and the aperture ring), but that hasn't stopped several generations of Nikon bodies being reasonably rain proof - and I'm not really advocating a pop-up on the D6. One of my objections to the 10-pin socket solution (other than wanting it for a remote release - over the weekend I took macro shots and wanted my remote trigger, and fortunately made do with continuous illumination) is that it's in an awkward place. I'd expect my fingers to get caught on a WR-A10 in that, too, with a tilt-shift.

Is the integrated flash a substitute for an external one? Obviously not. Aesthetically it's in a dumb place (as is any on-camera flash used for anything but fill, and even then it's only a subset of the time you want it above the lens in a landscape orientation) - I've argued before it would almost be better to put a flash output in the middle of the grip and tell people to mind their fingers. Is it better, when you're out travelling (since the D8x0 series and D7x0 series make great travel cameras) and go somewhere dark, to have any flash available without spending a couple of minutes rummaging in a pocket and attaching it to the hotshoe, if you even remembered it? Oh yes, unfortunately for D850 and D780 owners. And yes, having spent a day shooting tiddlywinks deliberately with no flash so as to avoid annoying people, I did need a flash for the trophy presentation in a dark corner, and yes, I've nearly missed it while faffing with a flash. To act as a trigger, I don't think it would even need to pop up or be in the visible spectrum (if you can't be bothered to use an SG-3) - it could just fire from around the prism. As a trigger, because it's relatively dim, I'm not aware of having had trouble with the integrated flash overheating. Still, a dedicated unit has merits - and, for me, the disadvantage of having to pay quite a lot for something I rarely use or want to carry. The 1% of the time I was wrong about needing a flash gun with me, it's been nice to have one on the camera.

I'd love being able to use the in-camera interface for changing flash settings. But the SB-800-class SB-5000 is the only flash it works with, and they're currently £569 - and to replicate my SB-600 rig (I want three flashes for lighting control, not output), I'd need three. The WR-A10 adaptor is £60 on its own (that's at least a couple of triggers from other manufacturers), and it doesn't seem to be possible to buy the WR-R10 to plug into it at the moment. There's no cheaper flash from Nikon with radio support, and there's no Nikon trigger adaptor for existing flashes. The alternative is an SU-800, which is £350 and much taller than the Godox trigger (which has a pass-through for an optical on-body flash if I wanted it). Or an SB-500, which is still bigger, at £200 still 50% more expensive than my entire Godox rig, and is still a substantial investment in what I presume Nikon would like us to think of as previous-generation technology.

Obviously I have limited experience, because I don't have Nikon's radio flash solution. :) (Also I've not poked inside my camera to risk the capacitor - but surely it's not that big?)

I'm sure Nikon's AWL solution is very nice to use from a menu perspective and very solid for connectivity. It doesn't stop it being very expensive, very large, and ergonomically questionable. Third party alternatives are at least a bit better in at least two of those categories.

The most frequent use scenario for small flash is on the camera. Older flashes can be used until the end of their lives in this role, while the WR-R10 triggers the radio remotes. If you don't want a flash on the camera to trigger optical remotes, use the SU-800 which is quite small and lightweight.

Technically it's possible to mount all three of my SB-600s in one hotshoe, but I'm inclined not to. My Di-28 (small flash) will get used until it gets an impact from the wrong angle and its plastic hotshoe breaks - but it won't tilt and it's not a CLS trigger. Even it, or the (larger) SB-500 or SU-800, make the camera top-heavy, need separate batteries, get tangled in straps, and nearly double the height of a D850 - they're just not in the class of the integrated flash, which is a fraction of the size and a fraction of the weight contribution. I'm not aware of Nikon bundling the SB-5000 with their D850 bodies, and even if they were, I can't get the triggers.

My annoyance is that I'm sure this was a penny-pusher at Nikon, saving the cost of the parts and the occasional repair from a snapped integrated flash (something I've never managed to do with any dSLR since 2004). The result is that I had to pay extra money to end up with an ergonomically worse solution than I already had with the D810. Given that there's already a radio window on the D850 to make SnapBridge work, I really wish they could just have integrated the trigger - I really would have bought an SB-5000 if it would have helped me. Meanwhile, as I've suggested before, I'm tempted to weld a couple of these to a metal bracket that I can slide into the hotshoe, hang them either side of the prism, and leave them on the D850. They won't work as well as an integrated flash, but they'd be better than nothing in an emergency. Anyone wanting to kickstarter a better solution out of a compact camera flash unit, especially with a CLS trigger, has my money.

Sorry to rant. I just don't like missed opportunities, especially when they cost me money. I forgive Nikon for going to XQD - that had a clear advantage for the outlay. Losing the flash, for me, made things worse.