Competition requires original camera file and DNG not accepted!

<p>I just recently took some great wildlife photos that I wanted to submit to the Wildlife Photographer of the Year competition. However, reading throught the rules it says that if the photo makes it to the final rounds then they will require the original RAW camera file to determine the modifications that have been made, etc..<br /><br />The problem is that I usually import my photos into Lightroom and have them all converted to DNG format, without the RAW file being embedded in order to keep the file size small. DNG format has its benefits and I like using them for these reasons. (too many discussions on this so I won't go into it)<br /><br />So I emailed the company doing the competition and they continued to say that they do not accept DNG files - they require the original RAW file. <br /><br />My arguement is that DNG files are simply converted from the original camera file. So there are no modifications done. Why would they not accept the DNG format?<br /><br />This is overall upsetting for me since I can't submit my photos. <br /><br />Anyone have any idea what to do here? Of course, I am now embedding my RAW files into the DNG format but this is rediculous. <br /><br />Here is their website - anyone else have experience with this competition?</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nhm.ac.uk/visit-us/whats-on/temporary-exhibitions/wpy/">http://www.nhm.ac.uk/visit-us/whats-on/temporary-exhibitions/wpy/</a></p>

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<p> I can't imagine what you can do. It's their contest, and their rules. Maybe you should be considering entering another contest?</p>

<p>That sounds strange. </p>

<p>There's a slim line between a photo contest and a scam to steal images. This one crosses the line.</p>

<p>Well, clearly, they don't understand the nature of a DNG file; and just as clearly, they're not going to be convinced. It would be interesting to know if they require film photographers to submit their negatives. But, as Luis said, it's their competition and their rules. It's probably time to move on.</p>

<p>I don't embed RAW files in DNG files, but I do preserve the RAW files and move them to a DVD for backup and whatever the future might bring. You might consider doing something like that.</p>

<p>Edward, it doesn't look like a scam to me, just a severe case of photoshopanoia...</p>

<p>I guess I was extremely shocked that they will not accept a DNG file as I understand it is the next best thing to the RAW file. Is it not the case that a DNG file is *exactly* the same as the original file except for losing some proprietary image properties that are specific to the camera make and model... ? </p>

 

<p>They probably don't know what DNG is. What can you do? Submit your entry as JPG, and if they select it, you'll have to provide the DNG. It's up to them what to do with it at that point. You're not the only person in the world without RAW files. I usually don't even bother shooting RAW if I'm outdoors. I only switch to RAW if the lighting is funny or it's dark or something.</p>

<p>Photographers need to take a stance against releasing RAW files. RAW is a format to help you produce your work. RAW is not the final product, and shouldn't be subjected to scrutiny. This competition is borderline invasion of privacy, if you ask me.</p>

<p>You can make changes to a file then save it as a .dng It is easy to take a .jpg or .tif file, open it in Adobe Camera Raw then click the Save As box, and convert to .dng. It loses all the benefits of a real raw file, but it is a .dng.</p>

<p>Reading the rules of the contest, I don't think this is an image grab. They specifically state that the raw files is used to verify that the photographer didn't do any manipulations beyond what they allow-minor adjustments, spotting, etc. They also state that entries may be used to promote the contest, but that's it. If the image is used for commercial purposes (for the magazine or for the natural history museum) they will give the photographer the option of accepting it and will pay a royalty. Seems decent for a contest these days.</p>

<p>John, when you converted to .dng did you trash your original files?</p>

<p>John Tonai - I agree with you. I have however one last hope - I have my card still, even though the camera formatted it, I will try to use some recovery software to get the RAW files back. I am crossing my fingers on this one!</p>

<p>A DNG file is a modified format TIF file (so is a PSD). It can be easily changed, and Lightroom does apply changes (deltas) to it (option in LR2.x).</p>

<p>If they have concerns on what changes we made to the image, a DNG can already be suspect by nature of what it is; a converted file. Nature is riddled with hoaxes, zoo shots and the like, and I am sure this is how they intend to thin out the "bad crowd".</p>

<p>Being a programmer, I suspect it would not take too much effort for me to modify a NEF file. This would assume that I wanted to in the first place. I don't think they really thought out what they are doing, but like mentioned - "it's their competition and their rules".</p>

<p>Good luck with the recovery.</p>

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<p>Photographers need to take a stance against releasing RAW files. RAW is a format to help you produce your work. RAW is not the final product, and shouldn't be subjected to scrutiny. This competition is borderline invasion of privacy, if you ask me.</p>

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<p>I agree with you to a point. RAW should not be the final product, but here they state that is not the purpose. The contest rules a very specific of the type of image they want. If an image is published and it proves to be manipulated, it will ruin the reputation of the contest, the magazine and the museum. They are protecting themselves and the photographers who enter correctly. It isn't an invasion of privacy because it is voluntary-if you don't want to release the information, don't enter.</p>

<p>NEVER ... EVER ... Ever ... ... EVER ... Ever ... ... EVER ... Ever ...</p>

<p>Turn over your original RAW. They are simply stealing your work</p>

<p>It's their contest, their rules... If you don't like it - don't enter.</p>

<p>As John points out - they're doing this to avoid hassles with manipulated images. Although as my late father used to say - "A lock only keeps honest people honest" - Someone who is good at manipulating Digital Images could also manipulate the EXIF data and RAW file to look like it came out of the camera. Anything that is digital can and will be altered...it's just a question of how far and how much effort someone wants to put into it.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

<p>What about the cameras which actually use DNG as their internal file format? There are also digital cameras that save TIFFs.</p>

<p>The point is that a photo is a photo ... it is finalized when I say it is finalized. This is not a news or documentary ... who gives a $$#@@#$ what the original file looks like. Despite losing the opportunity to crop and perfect your image with post processing (an important and legitimate part of every workflow) Every RAW file will lack contrast, sharpening, and white balance.</p>

<p>In the end, the company gets to keep your data directly out of the camera and do whatever they want with it ... that is a bad deal. the only reason they want this is their own dishonesty.</p>

<p>Theres a lot of seriously defamatory comment being lobbed around here, and some of it by people whose regular postings are usually amongst the more sensible and knowledgable advice offered on pnet.</p>

<p>But I have to say that some of the preceding comment is plain wrong and misleading. It also suggests that very few of you even took the time to investigate the whole thing properly.</p>

<p>The reality is that this competition is one of the most prestigious of its type in the world, has been running for almost two decades, attracts tens of thousands of entrants, many of them amateurs, but also some the biggest names in environmental photography in the world, some from National Geographic, such as Kevin Schafer, Mike nick Nichols, Jim Brandenburg, etc.and it is held in high regard in the industry such is the quality and breadth of entries. The judging panel generally consists of some very high profile individuals, and the whole event is run in an extraordinarily fair and equable manner with a high degree of integrity.</p>

<p>Winners neither lose their rights, nor are their RAW files stolen, rather - like a dope test - the demand for original files where available is to ensure a level playing field - a process that has ensured this annual image fest contains some of the finest amateur and professional work from all around the globe.</p>

<p>And no, I dont have any connection with it in any way, and have simply enjoyed the entries, and enjoyed participating, and the ill-informed crap that's been bandied about in this thread should be ignored by any further viewers of the topic.</p>

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<p>Well the rules are completely stupid but that said, there’s NO WAY I’d send them a Raw or a DNG. An un-rendered Raw? Its like a contest asking for submissions using color negs. These guys are bozo’s. I fully agree with Thomas on all points. </p>

<p>Ansel Adams (were he alive today) would probably be disqualified from entering! It's unclear to me what they consider "appropriate modifications" as I can't find the rules on their website. I presume that they clarify this in the e-mail to interested parties but there must be a pretty fine line.</p>

<p>...and <em>speaking</em> of dope tests!</p>

<p>Seriously, this reminds me of old beauty pageants that used to require the contestants certify that they were virgins to be able to enter the contest. It's just not relevant.</p>

<p>The fact that this is such a "prestigious" and well-respected contest is one of the problems. These people, least of all, should be setting excessive global standards of acceptable contests admissions. Just because of the notoriety, people will be inclined to ignore the fact that it's noone's business to see the raw camera file.</p>

<p>What's the next step? Require each photographer to have a videographer on site to document the taking of the picture, and require the submittal of a "making of" video with each photo. Then you'll have to get notorized declarations of authenticity from a panel of experts before they'll declare your photo genuine.</p>

<p>This stems from the misguided idea that all a photographer does is snap the photo. Once the shutter snaps, his job is done. You can remove him from the camera, confiscate the photos, and get the result that was intended by the photographer. For some this may be the case, and I suspect that this contest is only for that type of photographer. For the rest of us, better to just stay clear of this contest if you can't abide by the rules.</p>

<p>john w-the only thing i can think of is that the contest people want to know what the original image was to compare it to your submitted image. the reason being is that they want to know what pping exactly was done, to verify that it was inside their rules for pping. as for giving them the raw, i see nothing wrong with it, as long as you keep the original file and send them a copy.</p>

<p>as for your liking/not liking the rules. it is their contest and they can do what they want. if you do not like the rules:DO NOT ENTER THE CONTEST. to me discussion of the fairness right or wrongness of the rules is pointless. it is ther contest and they can do what they want. talking about the rules is a waste of time, and is not going to change the rules one bit.</p>

<p>Believe it or not, this contest may actually survive to run again next year even if the handful of people who think it's "stupid" boycott it.</p>

<p>My, my. Some pretty humorous overreactions, but John MacPherson puts it all in perspective. The RAW files will not be <em>judged</em> , only used as supporting evidence. But no photographer should bother entering who fears that judges of an elite contest who see thousands of RAW images will somehow be prejudiced against a single entry because they don't know how to look at a RAW image.</p>

<p>"Steal images," indeed; such fears are just paranoia run wild. Sheesh.</p>

<p>this is just dumb! first of all it is a PHOTO contest, judging photographs. Why would the original RAW file even be necessary, it's not a competition of who can do the best photo modifications. I personally think that this is whats wrong with photography today, too much time behind the computer worrying about stupid stuff like this and less time out making great photographs. I mean would they ask for the negative if you shot film? Because under NO circumstance should you turn that over. This contest just sounds like a bad idea and I would suggest not entering it!</p>

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<p>Why would the original RAW file even be necessary, it's not a competition of who can do the best photo modifications</p>

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<p>Erm, that's the whole point isn't it? To prove that the finished photograph hasn't been manipulated - by adding or removing elements from it for example.</p>

<p>Yes, it was possible to manipulate film prints, but the point is it was so difficult to do convincingly that very few people had the time, patience, or inclination to do so. Photoshop makes the process much simpler, and more difficult to detect.</p>

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<p>What kind of camera do you have? There may be a way to duplicate it. Why not just rescue the card to find it?</p>

<p>Make with Photoshop a nice oversaturated photo of a dinosaur in top of the mountain and a fish with wings and bear head flying arround, something that is clearly a manipulation, save it as a tiff, open it with Nikon capture NX2 and click save as NEF. You have created your original RAW(NEF) file to send them and maybe they undestand how stupid is their request.</p>