Common Courtesy

<p>Forgive me for bringing this subject up again but I am becoming more and more frustrated.</p>

<p>You would think that anyone who submits their work for critique would have the common courtesy to offer critiques and comments on the work of others. Now OK! A lot of this may be my problem. I refuse to comment or critique photos submitted by people who have asked for more critiques than offered comments. I do make the exception for new members.</p>

<p>I have spent a large part of my Sunday (and many other days) looking at photos in the queue and when I come find one that might be worthy of a comment, I find the contributor to be selfish, expecting comments but offering few. A while back, those that run this site said they were going to do more to encourage critiques. Frankly it is not happening.</p>

<p>Is anyone else frustrated with this? </p>

<p>I suggest a system, where a photo would only be available for critique when the contributor had actually offered a comment or critique on the work of others. How that system would be implemented is another matter. However in the meantime, each time a photo is submitted for critique, a window appearing encouraging you to critique the work of others would be a good idea.</p>

<p>Don't worry, that annoys me as well. Particularly when these people complain to me about how they don't get any critiques or ratings.</p>

<p>Pay to play is coming. Freeloading is over. The system has been programmed. Just needs some more testing and some work on my end.</p>

<p>I look forward to it Josh!</p>

<p>Indeed! Now, if you can just do something about posts like this:<br /><br /><em><strong>Subject:</strong></em> "Urgent! Please help! I have to do a wedding!"<br /><br /><em><strong>Post:</strong></em> "How do I get my camera to do [whatever it is]"<br /><br /><strong>Helpful Comment From PN User:</strong> <em>"Do [this], [that], and [other very specific things, usually found in the owner's manual], and good luck on your project."</em><br /><br /><strong>Original Poster:</strong> <em>[deathly silence, with occasional cricket chirping]</em><br /><br />Honestly, you'd think that people are afraid they'll be invoiced if they use up more screen space by saying thank you. Oh well. Manners are out of fashion now, I suspect.<br /><br />I'd like to think that the new critique/ratings engine Josh is talking about will foster a new sense (and reasonable expectation) of reciprocity, but I suspect that it will only happen in the wider user base where the software/rules/system forces the issue. Shame and manners both died a long time ago, it seems, smothered by a sense of entitlement.<br /><br />Looking forward to the change, Josh - it will be interesting to see how the law of unintended consequences manifests itself on this one. As an IT guy that deals with systems-based business/behavior rules, it's a familiar spectator sport.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Honestly, you'd think that people are afraid they'll be invoiced if they use up more screen space by saying thank you. Oh well. Manners are out of fashion now, I suspect.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Sadly, that particular issue is just the way of internet forums. There are two types of people who post a forum question:</p>

<ol>

<li>people who just need one answer and can't or won't find it via google</li>

<li>people who are interested in the subject of the forum and might become more involved members of the community</li>

</ol>

<p>Sadly, there isn't really any way to tell if a new user is in group 1 or 2. So the way I look at it is that it's always best to be helpful. Group #1 isn't going to come back no matter what, but at least the answer will be there for future people to find. And group #2 may just convinced to stay a while as a result of a helpful answer from a member of the community.</p>

<p>I make a modest prediction, well, call it a suspicion. I suspect that a "pay-to-play"--you can't post because you haven't commented on others work--will reduce the freeloaders all right, but it may not <em>increase</em> the number of comments either. Critiques are very helpful, but societies have been trying to deal with the freeloader issue back into the Paleolithic. The only answer social science/psychology has come up with is that experiments seem to show that positive reinforcement is more effective than sanctions.</p>

<p>I rarely comment on photos in the "critique" forum, but do make comments in portfolios and the like. I have never asked for a critique or comment either. So I don't really have a pony in this race, but it's not a novel problem to anyone who has been involved in any kind of administrative role. Good luck, Josh!</p>

<p>David,</p>

<p>Maybe I'm just odd. Decidedly so, but that's another story for another forum. I think all photographers who submit their photographs are worthy (and their photos, too) of critique. That's what this forum is for -- isn't it? Because there isn't time to critique all photographs, I pick and choose, also. I never check on anyone's critiquing history. Yes, I do run across names or photos (styles I recognize) that I have gotten to know over time that I won't critique for one reason or another. I have to admit I have never thought to see if anyone has critiqued anyone else's photos. I really don't care. I though the idea was to help other people.</p>

<p>Having been a teacher all my life may have something to do with the idea that I think helping people is good. Wanting something in return (other than it would be nice for an occasional thank you or I don't agree because...) does not play into my needs for self satisfaction or worth. I have not submitted any photographs to be displayed on Photo.net for my own reasons, but will continue to critique other people's photographs without thinking they should be required, or even should be expected, to critique anyone else's in return.</p>

<p>People have their own reasons for not wanting to critique other people's photography. I have chosen not to be the one to decide if their reasons are worthy. I think you learn by being critiqued and by giving critiques. It would be really helpful for everyone to look carefully at photographs and analyze what is good and bad about those photographs. It is a learning process for everyone. I think it would be a disservice to people who what to become better photographers to force them to critique a photograph if they do not want to. You would drive many people away from this forum who are here to learn. Some people just don't want to be a part of the "good ol' boy" network. They just want some help from some photographers they think are knowledgeable and are willing to share their knowledge with others. I hope that knowledge can be shared with no strings attached.</p>

<p>Mark</p>

<p >I’m a member of PN for more than two years and I frequently open the pages of PN for viewing and commenting on other members’ photographs. Reciprocity and social interactions are always desirable. But we must consider the fact that PN is really famous as a forum where photographers can learn photography. I personally had joined PN to learn digital photography and I’m truly benefited. I have learnt many things from expert members. Mark is absolutely right in stating that ‘pay to play’ policy may make PN a difficult place for many new members who join PN, everyday from different countries of the world, to learn photography. They want comments from experts, guidelines from old members. If in return they have to comment, under statutory compulsion, on many other members’ photographs, PN may lose some newcomers who are photo-learners. On the other hand, a large number of ‘very good’, ’thank you’ type of comments may make them confused. Constructive critiques are really helpful to everybody. All photo-learners sincerely try to get some feedbacks from experts and old members. But, I think, comments on demand can never fulfill the requirements of senior members like David. If senior members like David McCracken play the roles of teachers as Mark has mentioned, without demanding any thing, PN will definitely be a better place for new members from different parts of the world.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Sumon</p>

<p>So as long as people like david do all the work, then everything will be fine? That's okay with me I suppose, get to work David.</p>

<p>Seriously people, yeah, it would be nice if we lived in a pretty little world where everyone played fair. But the fact is people aren't happy with what we have now. Nobody gets enough critiques, nobody gets enough ratings. People, good photographers, submit images over and over and do not make the effort to "give back" to the system. There is really no way to increase the average number of ratings/critiques without some sort of "you have to give to get". There is really no way around it, what we have isn't working.</p>

<p>David--</p>

<p>My perspective is different from Mark's. Like you, I will often check someone's history and not comment if they've been selfish here. This site works best when people give and take. Personally, I'm not here for one-way critiques whether it's on my own photos or those of others. I want a dialogue. So I respond to those who critique me not just with a thank you but with further thoughts that could and sometime do stimulate a bit of a discussion. When I critique someone, perhaps because of my style of critiquing, I will often get more than just a thank you in return, sometimes leading to a conversation, sometimes even involving other people who comment on the same photo. Those have been my best PN experiences and I do everything I can to encourage them. When I write a critique, I usually take some time to think and write and have no interest in giving my time to those people who are only here to take.</p>

David, I'm 8 years a member here and active. I love photography, I like taking photos and look and evaluate photos of others. I have learned a lot by doing it and still learn all the time ,as well as developing my English which is a foreign language for me. I do agree with you that there are quite many members that like to get and not to give anything back,let alone acknowledge your critique/evaluation, the time and thought you invest by doing it, and thanks you. With the passing years you find photographers that you like following their work ( because you like their work) and have a dialogue with ( short or long, but still a dialogue), and also make friends.There is also a group of members that enters photos and commenting by saying nearly nothing helpful, I will still thanks them and try to see what and if I can help with my accumulated experience. But as you do, I do it as well for some years now, I check their commenting history, if they do It ( not necessarily for me but do comment on others) and I find their photo interesting for me I will comment and say what I have to say. I'm glad if a dialogue is taking place. I hope Josh program will increase the way members will have to invest some value and not only take.I think this is the purpose of uploading photos to the site ,learning and helping others by telling them what I think.<br />

<p>I'm pleased to hear that the programmers are working on a system to reward useful comments. There are several people, including David, who post great comments. This does not mean they always like the images but they find ways to give their feelings without insult.<br>

My pet peeve are those, again there are several, who always post very short comments (i.e. "Great!", "Love this one!", "Best yet!"). I can only hope the new system will help eliminate that issue.</p>

<p>Mark,</p>

<p>"I though the idea was to help other people."</p>

<p>Yes! I like to help people who want to be helped. It is my opinion that those who expect comments / critiques and don't give them out don't want help. These people just want their egos stroked.</p>

<p>My 2 cents:</p>

<p>I think a lot of the reason that people searching for critiques do not critique others work has nothing to do with fairness or courtesy in the sense you all imagine it to. Because this site is primarily populated with people who are trying to learn, it makes sense that most people here would not critique photos simply because they don't feel qualified to do so. In that sense, it would seem to me to be good manners, and a courteous thought. The pay-to-play proposal is only going to increase the number of inaccurate and uninformed critiques, causing further frustration. <br>

Further, most people who post their works for critique do so wanting comments from experienced photographers, not from any Tom, Dick, or Harry that happens to have an account. Comments from people who haven't even figured out how to use their cameras yet are not going to be helpful to anyone, and requiring them in order for that person to ask for help/critiques seems pretty stupid.<br>

I would propose that critiques can only be given by established professional photographers who have been in the field for a certain number of years, and who have been members here for a certain time as well. Give these people some sort of a reward for their time and knowledge, based on the number of critiques they offer, and do not exclude them from offering images for their peers to critique as well, (though don't include those submissions in the formula that you use to determine thier reward for critiques or you will invite abuse). It would seem a simpler solution to me, and would address all concerns.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"I would propose that critiques can only be given by established professional photographers who have been in the field for a certain number of years, and who have been members here for a certain time as well. Give these people some sort of a reward for their time and knowledge..."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's been suggested before, many times. A few problems:</p>

<ul>

<li>"Established professional photographers" are likely to be too busy working to have time to offer many critiques.</li>

<li>What are members willing to pay for these critiques from professionals?</li>

<li>Photo.net's membership includes mostly amateurs, not full time professionals.</li>

<li>If, instead, we change the definition from "established professional" to respected, credentialed or credible photographers, how is this defined?</li>

<li>Will members agree to graciously accept critiques without complaint or retaliation? If not, why should any expert panel of judges subject themselves to the inevitable whining from those who cannot accept criticism?</li>

</ul>

<p>The peer critique model can work well. There is no need for an expert panel, which would be antithetical to a site like photo.net's peer-to-peer process anyway. The challenge is to provide incentives for peers to critique each others photos. At the moment there is little incentive to do more than offer bland compliments and inoffensive comments.</p>

<p>There is also no agreement about the issue of reciprocity. Some believe that only photographers who give critiques should be eligible to receive critiques. Personally, I distrust the social networking attitude that is often fostered by reciprocity, and prefer instead to critique photos that are usually ignored, regardless of whether the photographer is active in the critique process.</p>

<p>I value critiques from anyone. It's about their seeing, their emotions, their ability to communicate, and their caring about what they're doing. I'm as interested to hear what the man on the street thinks of my photos as I am some gallery curator or some professional photographer. I wouldn't expect the same kind of comments from each of these. A newcomer to photography might not want to start "correcting" things or suggesting technical things he knows nothing about. But he should be capable of telling me how the photo makes him feel and if he comes away from it with anything. </p>

<p>This issue about not feeling "qualified" to make critiques comes up a lot. It's often addressed in the threads. I wonder if there would be a way to address it directly when the new system comes into place. I would like newcomers to know how welcome their comments would be, especially if they make them relative to their experience.</p>

<p>Newcomers, perhaps most importantly, have a lot to learn from commenting on others' photos. In the three years I've been here, I've learned more from commenting on others' work than from the comments I've received. That's because it has often started discussions, has made me more careful in how I look, I've asked questions, I've made mistakes in saying certain things that I've learned from, etc. </p>