Coming competion for 5D and 30D?

Discussion in 'Mirrorless Digital Cameras' started by ._kaa, Aug 14, 2007.

  1. Rumors are swirling about a bunch of new Sony bodies. For example,

    ?I already told you that my brother-in-law works for Sony on the Alpha project.
    Here is some more info, some is repeated from my previous posts. The advanced
    model will be 14.* MP and close to FF. It will have 1.25x factor and a switch
    for lenses with 1.5 factor. It will be called A300. Because of the pixel pattern
    similar to Sony ClearVid CMOS sensors, Sony will claim up to 2x effective pixel
    resolution. The flagship model will be called A500 and will be 100% full frame.
    Nikon is supplying Sony new steppers to create FF sensors in one shot. Sony
    first joined forces with Konica Minolta, now with Nikon. This gives to both Sony
    and Nikon advantage over Canon, which Sony believes will eventually drop to a
    3rd place; Sony will move up to 2nd place in overall volume of DSLR?s sales. The
    least expensive Sony DSLR will not have optical viewfinder and will be called
    A50. The flagship model will be 20 MP, 40 effective. That is the reason why Sony
    concentrates on top quality glass. Sony?s advantage will be fact that they are
    the foremost sensor maker; their output is several times higher than Matsushita,
    which is second largest CCD maker.?

    The 2 DSLR prototypes that were shown at different shows by Sony were no wooden
    mock ups, but the actual cameras that will be produced. The same goes for the
    lenses. All these were pretty much final prototypes, but Sony could not disclose
    this due to its competition. The main thing that is holding these projects up is
    development of SSS which has to work harder with larger sensors; the insides of
    the cameras may be a little different than on the prototypes shown, not the
    outsides. That was finalized before showing them to the public.

    ?Sony was originally going to buy the Contax brand from Kyocera, but then used
    this infomation in its negotiations with KM, from whom they managed to get the
    DSLR division with all its expertise for pennies on the dollar. KM really wanted
    the DSLR division to be in the best hands; they cared about it more than about
    anything else; the Minolta portion of the KM team wanted to see the legacy of
    the system to continue and to improve as much as possible. The decision to sell
    to Sony was rather emotional.?

    (from http://www.infodigitalcamera.com/blog/342/sony-alpha-high-end-amateur-model/)

    It's a pretty good bet we'll learn about 40D in a week or so, but if Canon
    doesn't update the 5D soon it might find itself in trouble in that market segment...

    Kaa
     
  2. sure, if you are new in photo business and will invest into the unknowns. Can you wait for SOny to come out with the pro lenses like 24 1.4, 50 1.2, 85 1.2,300 2.8, so on? There is always competition, the question is, can you wait? and can your customers wait?
     
  3. "The least expensive Sony DSLR will not have optical viewfinder"
    Then it wouldn't be an SLR. It would be a P&S with interchangable lenses.
     
  4. Sony's current SLR is nice, but image quality isn't up to that of the Canons. And how are they going to capture the pro market? Sorry, but this all seems like some incredibly wishful thinking by Sony. And describing a 1.25X sensor as "almost FF?" Is this an early/late April Fool's joke? Sony is going to give the 5D some competition? With what?
     
  5. It could still be an SLR, provided it had the reflex mirror.

    Course, I don't know why you'd do that if it didn't have an optical viewfinder...
     
  6. "Then it wouldn't be an SLR. It would be a P&S with interchangable lenses."

    It's not hard to imagine an SLR without an optical viewfinder. See EVOLT E-330.
     
  7. Who cares what Sony does ? Nobody is going to ditch their Canon or Nikon gear because Sony decides to expand their line. If you're just starting out, it's something else to consider, that's all. Good luck.
     
  8. "It's not hard to imagine an SLR without an optical viewfinder. See EVOLT E-330.
    The E-330 does have an optical viewfinder. See here for proof.
    Silvan...maybe they made the mirror that leads to nowhere?;)
     
  9. Hope your brother in law still has a job after leaking all this information
     
  10. The basic reason for this post was a lot of comments that Canon can afford to not update the 5D because it effectively has no competition. My point is that it looks like the competition is coming.

    The Sony's "flagship" model, A500, is said to be full-frame (not "nearly" FF, but actually FF :) ) and have a 18-20 Megapixels sensor. Oh, and body-based image stabilization. That *is* competition for 5D. Not for people who have tens of thousands invested in Canon glass, but definitely for others.

    Kaa
     
  11. Yeah.

    It look like.

    But we still haven't it in hand, now. For what we know, Canon has a 5D mkII ready, or the 1Ds MkIII.

    So, wait and see? No?
     
  12. What are Sony CCDs like now? Are they as reliable as those manufactued between 2002 and 2004?
     
  13. "What are Sony CCDs like now? Are they as reliable as those manufactued between 2002 and 2004?"

    Sony manufactures CCDs for Nikon. So just look at current Nikons :)

    Kaa
     
  14. The sooner Canon starts losing sales to DSLRs with in body stabilization, the sooner they will offer it too.

    I've been testing a Sony A100 with in-body stabilization and for the lenses I've tested it with (up to 80mm focal length), it's just about as good as Canon's in-lens stabilization. Since the A100 costs about $600 for the whole camera and IS can add anything from $200-$400 per lens, it's not hard to see the economic advantage. And that's not even considering in-body stabilization allows you a stabilized fast prime system, as well as stabilization with all existing lenses and with older manual focus lenses.

    It's possible lens stabilization is much better for long telephotos like the 600/4, but there's nothing at all stopping Canon offering both in-body stabilization AND stabilized lenses. The system should be smart enough to allow the use of one of the other, but not both at the same time.

    After shooting with the A100 I can tell you that, despite being a dedicated Canon user, I want body based stabilization in an EOS body. I don't think the 40D will have it, and that could result in me not buying one.

    Just because Canon invented stabilized lenses for DSLRs, that should not prevent them from acknowledging that in-body stabilization has many advantages. If they are smart, they won't allow the NIH (not Invented Here) syndrome to cloud their thinking.
     
  15. Competition is good for everyone (almost). I don't however think Sony will claim the pro user base. Instead I think they'll get some amatuer, pro-sumers, and gear junkies to buy thier "Pro" level product. I'm sure there are still many die hard Minolta film camera fans out there who would jump on this band wagon. So, yes it might make a dent in new buyers market. But taking anyone away form Canon? I doubt it. If this is true (and I hope it is) them maybe we'll get some price relief after Sony posts some numbers on market share. But don't hold your breath.
     
  16. As always, any competition for Canon is good for Canon users. When Canon is no longer the
    only company producing a full frame DSLR, we can expect to see renewed healthy
    competition in this sector that could lead to cost reductions and improvements in features.
     
  17. "The E-330 does have an optical viewfinder. See here for proof."

    No one has suggested otherwise. Remove the optical viewfinder from the EVOLT and you are left with an SLR that has a functional electronic viewfinder. In other words, the EVOLT demonstrates how one would build an SLR without an optical viewfinder, contrary to the suggestion SLRs must have them. I apologize for not being explicit.
     
  18. "It will have 1.25x factor and a switch for lenses with 1.5 factor"

    What is a lens with a 1.5 factor?

    "Sony will claim up to 2x effective pixel resolution"

    What does that mean?

    New cameras in the pipeline, sure. But is it me (and the wine I'm drinking) or is this mostly fanciful?

    Canon in third place? Well maybe. Canon are not yet fully aware of stuff that appears on photo.net? Wouldn't count on that.
     
  19. "What is a lens with a 1.5 factor?"

    That's probably a lens designed for a sensor of specific size -- the size that would imply a 1.5 focal length "multiplier".

    Under such terminology, Canon's EF-S lenses (e.g. 10-22) are 1.6 factor lenses.

    Kaa
     
  20. "Remove the optical viewfinder from the EVOLT and you are left with an SLR that has a functional electronic viewfinder"
    Sorry for misundersanding what you implied earlier. Anyway, the "reflex" in Single-Lens Reflex refers to the mirror. If you remove the optical viewfinder, you remove the mirror as well (Since it will be pointless). No mirror means no reflex, which means it won't be an SLR. It will be just a large sensor bridge camera with interchangable lenses.
     
  21. This kind of report, we get a lot of on photo.net.

    I'll believe it when it hits the stores.
     
  22. Thanks Kaa. I've done a Google for "Sony CCD failure Nikon" and come up with this
    http://news.digitaltrends.com/news/story/8651/faulty_sony_ccds_fail_in_dozens_of_cameras . There are heaps of other articles concerning this. It seems Sony supply CCDs for loads of manufacturers other than themselves but they skimped in production by coating them in epoxy instead of ceramic, and it came back to bite them. I'm sure they will have learned their lesson now though after having to issue a recall and do so many replacements. It's just a shame they decided to keep the recall notice buried in their website over here and to not even let UK main dealers know. I've just had two digital imaging products (an expensive Sony camcorder and a Sony stills camera) repaired for free under their "hush hush" recall that even the main dealer I bought the cameras from hadn't even been made aware of - despite the recall being issued in October 2005 and then extended in November 2006. Any massive company like this that has no thought for its customer base will never again get my custom. I know poor sods who were throwing away their expensive Sony stuff when it was just months outside of warranty as they were told they would need to pay massive repair bills for replacement CCDs - and this was by the shops just a couple of months afo - long after the "hush hush" recall was issued because Sony hadn't told them anything about a recall.
    Sony have a lot of work to do to convince me that I could depend on one of their products before I will ever again buy one. All respect to them for getting my camcorder and camera repaired and back to me within a week, but absolutely no respect for not better publicising the recall and for going cheap on the sensor in the first place - which is a core component of any digital imaging product.
     
  23. Steve Dawson asked "Sony will claim up to 2x effective pixel resolution"
    Steve, Fuji also claim 2x higher effective pixel resolution than the actual number of pixels. Fuji do it in the Super CCD by using octagonal pixels as opposed to rectangular. Just found this...
    "Fuji uses aggressive interpolation to take advantage of the closer pixel spacing on the SuperCCD, producing an image that has more pixels than the sensor itself. In the case of the S1, the camera produces a 6.1 million pixel file from a 3.5 million pixel sensor. The resulting image doesn't have as much resolution as a real 6 million pixel sensor, but images produced by the S1 did show a slight improvement in detail resolution when compared to other 3.5 megapixel cameras." extremetech.
     
  24. I hope Sony gets them on the market soon, and I hope they're great products. The competition will be good for buyers. I doubt I'll ever again buy a Sony anything, but if they spur Canon & Nikon to increase quality and features, while lowering prices, this will be a good thing for the rest of us. I think the large profits of the last several years of DSLR growth need to be trimmed a bit, and marketplace competition is the best tool to do it.
     
  25. OT: Any news on new SSM lenses?

    Happy shooting,
    Yakim.
     
  26. The sony's competitor for 30d and 5d are long overdue, They should have released it just months after they released the A100.

    I think that Sony's strategy about the dslr market Is not audacious enough, to be able to capture bigger market share.

    At first sony's outlook on the dslr market is very bright , they wish to surpass Nikon, Sadly it did'nt came true, And sony's market share in dslr market is shrinking by the day, today. I believe this is because of lack of models to choose from, And of course, the high price of their lens.


    So I think sony should release ground breaking products ASAP, and reduce the price of their lens, So that they'll be on the right track again.
     
  27. KAA,

    The reason Canon is not updating the 5D at the moment is not because there is no competition, but because it does not make sense to update the 5D full frame before updating the 1DS MK2.

    I suspect if Sony honestly believe that they will push Canon into 3rd place from their current No.1 slot (There are more Pro photographers worldwide using Canon cameras than Nikon)they must be either drunk or on another planet - they will always struggle to be an effective contender as their history is built outside of the DSLR camera market, it takes years to convince sceptical photographers that their new model is not just a flash in the pan!

    Dream on Sony!
     
  28. I dont understand that Sony guys, the R1 was an amazing camera and they stopped it for that A100 Minolta clon. Regards Martin
     
  29. Bob, have a look in this thread.
    Happy shooting,
    Yakim.
     
  30. Well, I guess I'm just more skeptical than others here. I'm all for competition and would like to see Canon be forced to drop their prices on high end gear. They charge entirely too much for the 1Ds bodies.

    Perhaps you explained elsewhere how your B-I-L got around any NDA he would surely be under, but this sounds like unsubstantiated rumors and just doesn't seem "right".

    1) Sony can claim 2x the resolution? Anyone can claim anything they want, but that doesn't make it true as has been proven by Sigma. The 20/40 sounds implausible to me.

    2) Sony believes Canon will drop to 3rd place? Not in our lifetimes. No one is going to bet their business on Sony, and Sony doesn't have the lens line up, accessories, or support network to make that happen. Canon will continue to own the pro market but Sony may increase sales at the bottom. Nikon is the one that's vulnerable and may drop to 3rd if Sony wants to get aggressive, but no one I know is going to give up their Canon gear to jump to Sony....

    3) Sony couldn't disclose that the bodies/lenses they showed were final concepts due its competition? What does that mean? I'm also not sure what SSS means so can you explain that?

    In short, I support competition and think Canon needs a poke badly, but Sony is frequently incompetent when developing anything other than screens. Their absolute failure in the music market after owning it with the Walkman is legendary. Their incompetent introduction of MS/MSP vs. using existing SD or CF was mind boggling, but consistent with their other blunders of trying to make everything "Sony only". Sony can be remarkably dumb for a large company and I'm sadly predicting that they will have little effect on the high end market.
     
  31. Sony seems to be battling itself from within. When they released their 808 / R1 cameras
    they both took CF cards (IIRC) but both were crippled unless one used Memory Sticks.

    I don't think we will be seeing these Sony cameras this year. Maybe they will 'show' them,
    but until it's sitting at B&H and one can order it, it's hardly a released product.

    I mainly think that Sony showed those mockups at the photo show to whet whistles, and
    not to indicate that these cameras would be coming out soon. Remember, at major photo
    shows, under glass = nonfunctional mockup.
     
  32. By definition, there is no such thing as an SLR without an optical viewfinder. They can call it what they like but it won't be an SLR.

    I would be interested in a good EVF camera with interchangeable lenses, I can envision it as combining many of the benefits of the SLR and the more compact rangefinders.... but if its lenses are interchangeable with an SLR line, most of the benefit is lost because the lens mount will make the camera bulky. Take that same concept, put a Leica M bayonet on it and a very good EVF, and I'd like to see it.

    I wish the folks at Sony well, and I hope they have an interesting and successful line. The idea of some combination of Sony and Nikon pushing Canon to third place in the top end DSLR field is unimaginable to me, though, and I expect that they will not lose too much sleep over it over at Canon.
     
  33. Well, the sales figures are the sales figures, and Sony for sure is not toppling Canon from top spot at present, but I believe they could, if they get a couple of things right. I'm not losing any sleep over it and none of us should, because as consumers we will benefit. The Canon execs surely should be keeping an eye on Sony and may well be losing sleep, but that's what they're paid for.
     
  34. what it could mean is that Nikon eventually get a full frame model on the market. sony can make a good product but their customer service stinks and because of that I wouldn't buy another Sony product.
     
  35. If the Sony doesn't come with a built in CD and DVD player, GPS system and pizza take out order hotline direct link I am not interested and will stick with the Canon gear.
     

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