Color Profiles in Mac OXS

Discussion in 'Digital Darkroom' started by patrick_foran, Jun 28, 2009.

  1. I know various forms of this question have been asked elsewhere, and I've read many replies without finding a way to fix the issue. Hopefully I've outlined things thoroughly enough below that someone will read it and say, "Oh, of course you just need to....." : ) (I'm using a MBP with Leopard 10.5.7)

    The color of my photos is correct and consistent within Photoshop, Safari, and Firefox. However, when I view them in Preview/Quickview or iPhoto, they are very noticeably over-saturated and darker. This is true for images taken with both my cameras (a Panasonic and a Canon), images displayed on webpages, and images I save or download from the web. The same is true for video footage: once uploaded, my videos look correct and consistent on Safari and Firefox (in Vimeo, Flickr, Facebook, and Youtube), but always darker and more saturated in both Quickview and iMovie. I've inserted an image below that demonstrates the differences.

    There are two methods I've found that make images display with the correct color in Preview(etc), but each requires manually changing a setting and re-saving each image individually. How can I display the correct color without changing each individual image? The two methods are listed below:

    METHOD 1: If I open a photo in Preview, it is over-saturated. Looking under "Tools > Assign Color Profile," the default is set to "Generic RGB Profile." If I change this to "Display" or "Color LCD," the image looks perfect! How can I implement this system wide, so Preview always assigns the color profile "Display" or "Color LCD"?

    METHOD 2: Take an image that is over-saturated in Preview. When I open a photo in Photoshop, then save a JPEG with the "embed color profile" box checked, the resultant image will display correctly in Preview/Quicklook, etc. (actually it's still a little more saturated, but not nearly as much). So now the question is, how can I get OSX to recognize/embed/not strip out the color profiles from the start? I have about 45,000 digital images (adding more all the time) so clearly opening them each in PS and resaving them with embedded profiles is not an option.

    I've seen the same problem (sometimes with slight variations) posted elsewhere, and no one seems to be able to offer a solution. Can anyone provide a straightforward fix? Changing the color profile/gamma settings for the LCD does not work because, of course, if I get Preview/Quickview/iPhoto/iMovie to display correctly, then everything else looks wrong. There must be some internal OSX setting that controls the way these programs read and display color.

    Any help is appreciated!
    Patrick
    [​IMG]
     
  2. I would hazard a guess that your set up of colour management is way out...
    Firstly, monitor profiles and colour spaces are completely independent of each other. Colour spaces are things like sRGB, Adobe RGD (1998) & ProPhoto. These are associated with (embedded) into images and tell a colour aware application how to translate the "numbers" (which represent a colour) in your image file to the monitor.
    Assigning a profile requires that you know/expect that the image IS that profile. For example, if an image was really ProPhoto and you assigned sRGB it would not look good next time you opened it. Converting to a profile actually changes the number values appropriately and embeds the new profile.
    The monitor (although more difficult on a notebook) needs to be "calibrated". This just means that it is at a known state that can accurately display a colour. Calibration requires a feedback system with a puck that reads colours from the monitor and allows the associated software to build a table that will ensure an accurate display of colours. Names of monitor profiles are usually whatever you want to call them as you create them. But whatever you do, DO NOT use a colour profile in its place.
    Once you have all this done, if an image has a colour space embedded (regardless of what it is) then it should display the same (correctly) on your calibrated monitor. Just dont start "assigning" colour spaces without thought. However, if you have already done this, if you "fix" the image then resave with the new profile embedded it will look ok next time.
    BTW, if you want to colour management enable Firefox, type "about:config" in the URL then search for gfx.color_management.enabled and set it to TRUE.
     
  3. I have this exact same problem on my MacBook Pro, except that it happens in Photoshop as well. It doesn't happen in DPP. I suspect that the OP's image in Photoshop would look like the Preview/iPhoto display if he turned color management on.
    My images are captured in sRGB. If I turn on color management in Photoshop CS2 with North American General Purpose 2 settings, then I get oversaturated reds. My monitor profile is the default "Color LCD" profile that ships with the machine.
    If I open an sRGB file using the "Monitor Color" setting, I get a warning asking me how to handle the profile mismatch. If I choose "use embedded profile" or "convert embedded profile" I get the same problem, because this overrides the Monitor Color settings for this file. If I discard the embedded profile, I get the same color as I see in DPP.
    When I open an sRGB file in Preview or iPhoto, I get the oversaturated colors no matter what I do. It makes viewing and editing images impossible outside of DPP, which I suppose is okay, since DPP is where I do most of my color-critical adjustments, and I use Photoshop for detailed retouching.
    I'm stumped. I've tried calibrating the display using the built-in utility but it is impossible--no matter what I do, the display looks horribly blue. Furthermore, I see no reason to recalibrate the display profile if DPP shows the correct color. I am reluctant to purchase an expensive color calibration product when I don't even know what the problem is. I've read through numerous articles and posts online about color calibration, and none of them have helped.
     
  4. My monitor profile is the default "Color LCD" profile that ships with the machine.


    Just because it came with the machine doesnt mean its correct... Probability is that its not!
    If I open an sRGB file using the "Monitor Color" setting, I get a warning asking me how to handle the profile mismatch. If I choose "use embedded profile" or "convert embedded profile" I get the same problem, because this overrides the Monitor Color settings for this file. If I discard the embedded profile, I get the same color as I see in DPP.


    The warning to handle the mismatch has nothing to do with your monitor profile. This is a mismatch between your files embedded colour profile and the default workspace you have set in the Photoshop colour preferences.
    When I open an sRGB file in Preview or iPhoto, I get the oversaturated colors no matter what I do.


    How did the image become sRGB? If it wasnt originally sRGB and your merely "assigned" the profile, of course it would be wrong. ie. if it was sRGB and your default colour space in PS was set to Adobe RGB, and you allowed the mismatch to be resolved by PS converting the profile, after which you "assigned sRBG back, the colour information in the image would be wrong.
    I'm stumped. I've tried calibrating the display using the built-in utility but it is impossible


    Dont... you cant calibrate a monitor with just software. You need a calibration system with a monitor colorimeter that has feedback information
    1) Basically, perform a hardware monitor calibration.
    2) Dont "assign" profiles to an image (unless you really know why youre doing it)
    3) Check what you colour space preferences are set to in PS and as well, how it is set to handle the mismatch - auto convert, ask, etc.
     
  5. Just because it came with the machine doesnt mean its correct... Probability is that its not!​
    I understand this, I really do. But at the same time, there's nothing I have been able to do with the display that makes it look any better (and when I mean "better," I mean "more perceptually accurate") than what was set as the default. Yes, it's very likely that it isn't "perfect." But it is close, at least more close than what would be indicated by the oversaturated images in Preview.
    The warning to handle the mismatch has nothing to do with your monitor profile. This is a mismatch between your files embedded colour profile and the default workspace you have set in the Photoshop colour preferences.​
    Again, I am aware of this. But the Monitor Color setting in Photoshop CS2 uses the display profile (in this case, Color LCD) as the working space. That I know is not the correct thing to do, but I mentioned it to illustrate what happens when I change the color settings to this option. If I use the North American General Purpose 2 settings, the working space is sRGB and the files are sRGB, and so there is no mismatch generated, but the color is still wrong, whereas if I open the same file in DPP, it is correct. Why?
    How did the image become sRGB? If it wasnt originally sRGB and your merely "assigned" the profile, of course it would be wrong.​
    Yes, I know this already too. The images are directly from my camera which has set the profile as sRGB. If I shoot in JPEG+RAW mode, Canon's DPP software renders both nearly identically in color (there may be minor differences due to rendering intent for RAW). But then I open the JPEG in Photoshop or Preview and the colors are oversaturated in exactly the same way as the OP described.
    1) Basically, perform a hardware monitor calibration.
    2) Dont "assign" profiles to an image (unless you really know why youre doing it)
    3) Check what you colour space preferences are set to in PS and as well, how it is set to handle the mismatch - auto convert, ask, etc.​
    I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but while your suggestions may be appropriate, they don't address the critical question, which is: Why does the display of the exact same file differ in Canon's DPP software versus Preview/Photoshop? It makes no sense whatsoever. Your recommendation to do a hardware monitor calibration--an expensive proposition--would not resolve this question. To make things even more interesting, Firefox 3.5's default settings also display the same file correctly. I have not assigned profiles manually to any of the affected images--all profiles were assigned by the hardware that captured the image. The preferences in Photoshop should not matter if the working space is the same as the image's profile.
     
  6. Hey, thanks to everyone for these quick and highly detailed responses. I certainly have more to learn about color profiling. However, I have to agree that I still have the same difficulty as Peter Wang, and this is not solveable by calibrating the monitor, with or without a hardware calibrator. The thing is (and I also apologize for sounding like a broken record), my monitor already displays colors correctly. I don't want to change my monitor. In all third party software and all web browsers, my images look exactly right. Why do they look different in native OSX apps? This is what I want to change, how OSX native apps are displaying the color. We're talking about the same file looking different in different applications, so calibrating the monitor won't change how those individual apps read the color profile of the image. The image might look better, but the same amount of difference will still exist in the way different applications display it.

    To put it more directly : I need to change the way OSX handles color profiles, not the way my monitor displays color/gamma/etc.

    In the image I embedded above, I have not changed anything about the color profiles. I just learned that I could change the profiles in Preview, so I haven't been running around willy-nilly changing settings on anything. That is the exact same file displayed in four programs. Preview gets it wrong. Why is this? How can I change it? Calibrating the monitor will change how the Preview image looks, but it will make similar changes to the way the Safari/Firefox/Photoshop image looks, so they still won't match.

    If someone could tell me how to make Preview match Safari/Photoshop/Firefox, I would be grateful.

    Thanks again!
    Patrick
     
  7. To put it another way:
    It used to be the case for me that Safari/Firefox displayed the images correctly, but both Preview and Photoshop were over-saturating. I changed the Color Settings in Photoshop to "Monitor RGB - Color LCD Calibrated," and poof , it instantly displayed images with the same color as Safari/Firefox. How can I create a similar "poof" in OSX so it displays that same color?
     
  8. To put it another way:
    It used to be the case for me that Safari/Firefox displayed the images correctly, but both Preview and Photoshop were over-saturating. I changed the Color Settings in Photoshop to "Monitor RGB - Color LCD Calibrated," and poof , it instantly displayed images with the same color as Safari/Firefox. How can I create a similar "poof" in OSX so it displays that same color?​
    I *knew* it. I suspected that you did exactly that, per my earlier post:
    I suspect that the OP's image in Photoshop would look like the Preview/iPhoto display if he turned color management on.​
    When you changed your color settings in Phtoshop to Monitor RGB - Color LCD Calibrated, you have basically told Photoshop you want to make your working space your display space, which is apparently not a good thing, because your display space is not capable of showing the wider gamut that the image was recorded in. That's why it matches in PS now, but I don't think that's what you should be doing in the event that you want to print those images opened, edited, and then saved in PS.
     
  9. Hmmmm....you may be correct, as I have always thought that my printed images came out too dark and over-saturated already, even before I changed anything about the color handling in PS, so if PS is now showing me even lighter, less-saturated images, it seems I've changed it in the wrong direction. So if Preview/iPhoto/etc are displaying "correct" color, why are Firefox and Safari so far off? The reason I originally changed my PS setting was because images posted to any website looked completely bleached of color compared to both the original and what I had generated in PS.

    But there is also the problem that the colors seem "correct" in the web, rather than is OSX. For instance, in the image I posted above, it looks dead-on in both Safari and Firefox, perfect/reaistic skin tones, but if I grab that image and drag it to my desktop, the skin suddenly looks sunburned.

    ach.
     
  10. I suppose it's possible I will have to adjust the settings depending on whether I want to output for print or for web. As it is now, PS matches what I will see on the web, but it will probably look terrible printed. I'm okay with going back and forth, I just want to be able to see consistency in all applications.

    EDIT: yes, I definitely want to use the "display space" color across all applications, as 98% of my images are shared/viewed either online or on my monitor, so I want those two spaces to match each other. For the 2-3% of images that I print, I can save a different setting within Photoshop or keep a proof print around to match the printed colors. So this takes me back to the original problem: now that I've gotten PS to display correctly, how do I change OSX/Preview. I suspect it has something to do with the "Colorsync Utility," but I'm hesitant to go mucking around in there...

    Suggestions?
     
  11. ditn really read the whole thread..but buy a external calibration device and that should fix most of your problem.
    You dont *adjust* your image for your different need; you adjust them until YOU like them on your calibrated monitor. Then you apply a color profile like sRGB if you want to print to a lab, look at it on the web, place it in keynote / powerpoint for projection. All that could be done automaticaly by using bridge / image processor.
    In Photoshop make sure you sleect the correct color space for your need; sRGB, Adobe RGB or Pro Photo RGB ( i dont think you should use Pro Photo for now as it will give you more headache) When those preference are well set, you shouldtn get many more error message.
    In the mean time if you feel for it, have a good read;
    Color Management for Photographers: Hands on Techniques for Photoshop Users by Andrew Rodney
     
  12. Make sure each image you test has the same ICC profile assigned (say sRGB). The previews in Photoshop and all other applications that match are correct. Any applications that don't match are either not using the display profile correctly or at all, or do not recognize the embedded profile. Doesn't matter what the display profile is set at (it could be wrong but every application will preview them identically and wrong). Assigning the display profile is NOT the fix nor the way to be testing this problem. You need to embed (tag) something other than the display profile to know if the applications in question are using the embedded profile and the display profile in tandem to produce a color managed preview. Again, Photoshop is correct in how it builds a preview using display and embedded profile. This isn't to say the RGB numbers are previewing correctly! You may have the incorrect embedded profile or a poor (canned) display profile. But that's a different issue for now.
     
  13. Can anyone tell me, in the image I embedded in the original post, how to make Preview/iPhoto match the others? I'm still not sure. Even if this is not the "correct" thing to do, I would like to know simply to satisfy my own curiosity. Andrew, what you say in your second sentence is correct -- Preview/iPhoto/OSX is the app that is "either not using the display profile correctly or at all, or not recognizing the embedded profile," and therefore doesn't match.

    Maybe this is the best way to describe: if I see a photo on the web, it displays correctly on my monitor , but the moment I drag it to my desktop (and Preview gets hold of it), the colors change completely. I believe this is because OSX always uses the "Generic RGB Profile," which either strips out the original profile or inserts it where there was none. This is what I want to stop. Please, I am looking for a way to change the way OSX handles color profiles, not for advice on calibrating my monitor.

    Again, please, we are talking about precisely the same image, the exact same file, displaying differently in different applications. This will not be solved by calibrating the monitor. The advice I'm looking for will have to be something about the settings within OSX.

    Again, thanks for all of the help!
     
  14. Maybe this is the best way to describe: if I see a photo on the web, it displays correctly on my monitor
    Unless the browser is color managed (and it would match Photoshop), no, its incorrect. Untagged web doc's are assumed to be in your display profile color space. So to match Photoshop, you'd have to assign this (then they would match although its very unlikely, actually pretty impossible that data from the web is in your display profile color space).
     
  15. I believe this is because OSX always uses the "Generic RGB Profile," which either strips out the original profile or inserts it where there was none.​
    I doubt that it strips out or overrides an embedded profile if there is one. If there is no embedded profile, it does seem to assume Generic RGB Profile by design.
    I could not find a way to change the default from Generic RGB Profile to something more reasonable, but I do not have access to Mac OS X to play around with it either.
    Perhaps it was for legacy reasons, but in my opinion it is inexcusable for Apple to have chosen a default profile other than sRGB.
     
  16. If there is no embedded profile, it does seem to assume Generic RGB Profile by design.​
    Not in Safari, not on my version of OS X, it assumes the display profile. Easy enough to test. Open a document that's a mile away from either profiles under discussion (sRGB, display profile or Generic RGB). Assign each to a copy of the document, then save a copy with no embedded profile and open in Safari. Which matches?
     
  17. Unless the browser is color managed (and it would match Photoshop), no, its incorrect. Untagged web doc's are assumed to be in your display profile color space. So to match Photoshop, you'd have to assign this (then they would match although its very unlikely, actually pretty impossible that data from the web is in your display profile color space).​
    Okay, so let me see if I understand this correctly. What you are basically saying is that the color managed display (i.e., sRGB captured image, viewed in an application such as Photoshop set to sRGB working space, on a display that is using some calibrated profile), should display colors as they ought to appear.
    The logical conclusion to this statement, then, is that Photoshop and Preview are correct but it is the non-managed applications that ignore the ICC tags that are incorrect (e.g., Firefox, DPP). Furthermore, this implies that once the display is hardware calibrated and a custom profile is created, this should in theory make applications such as Preview and Photoshop display correctly, and the non-managed applications such as Firefox incorrect.
    Am I correct so far?
    The problem, though, is that DPP supposedly supports color management. I have its preferences set correctly to the best of my knowledge. And it displays color in a way that closely matches the output as viewed on the LCD screen of my camera (at least more closely than the oversaturated colors in Photoshop). So if I do hardware recalibration of the display, wouldn't that affect BOTH DPP and Photoshop's rendering? See, this is what I don't understand. And I need to understand this before I splash out $$$ for a color calibrator that I can't be reasonably assured will do anything to help resolve this issue.
    But just in case I do eventually get one, which one should I buy? Again, I don't want to spend huge amounts of money. And I need to be able to return it if it doesn't resolve the issue. I'm not exactly ignorant of computer hardware or technology--I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about technical things. But as far as I'm concerned, unmanaged images look to me to be far, far more color accurate than the so-called "managed" renderings.
     
  18. I can confirm that all of my images are displayed by default with Generic RGB.
    I have a Panasonic LX3 and a Canon XT. If I look in "Get Info" for the LX3 images, the listings are:
    Color Space: RGB
    Profile Name: sRGB IEC61966-2.1
    But when I open in Preview, choose "Tools > Assign Profile," it is already preset to "Generic RGB" in all instances.

    EDIT : Sorry, what I wrote above is incorrect. (I'm leaving it there in case it sheds some light on my confusion : ) Under "Tools > Assign Profile," "Generic RGB" is not actually set, it's just the first option that pops up. Actually, if I select Generic RGB and apply it, the image displays correctly! (i.e. not over-saturated, brings back shadow detail, reds and skin tones under control). This is how I want Preview to display the colors. How can I do this?

    Thanks everyone for your responses. This must be frustrating....I most likely just need to do some serious reading about color management when I have the time, rather than posting my problem and saying "please fix this!" ; )
     
  19. What you are basically saying is that the color managed display (i.e., sRGB captured image, viewed in an application such as Photoshop set to sRGB working space, on a display that is using some calibrated profile), should display colors as they ought to appear.​
    Got nothing to do with an sRGB setting in Photoshop. You need a display profile and you need an embedded profile in a document for Photoshop to preview the numbers as an ICC aware application. The embedded profile could be incorrect (tag doesn't describe the actual color space of those numbers) and/or you can have a poor display profile. None the less, with the same tagged image using the same display profile, all color aware applications will preview the data the same way. Either you don't have an embedded profile, in which case, some applications like Photoshop will make differing assumptions to the scale of those numbers from say Safari, OR you're not working with ICC aware applications.
    Furthermore, this implies that once the display is hardware calibrated and a custom profile is created, this should in theory make applications such as Preview and Photoshop display correctly, and the non-managed applications such as Firefox incorrect.​
    Again, if the same RGB numbers have the same tag, all ICC aware applications will produce the same preview. Might be incorrect but they will match. If document doesn't have an embedded profile, its possible differing ICC aware applications will assume the tag differently. Photoshop assumes untagged documents are in whatever color space you have set in the color settings. Safari and iPhoto/Preview should assume display RGB. So as I said above, first thing you have to do is ensure the document being testings has an embedded profile. If it does, all ICC aware applications will produce the same preview (albeit, it might be wrong).
    A custom display profile and/or printer profile ensures the numbers actually are being shown to you correctly. But a generic display profile will still work in terms of matching the RGB numbers on the display with all ICC aware applications.
     
  20. Andrew,
    Thanks for bearing with me on this. I do know for a fact that the images in question are tagged as sRGB, because (1) they come straight from the camera, (2) I can open up the EXIF metadata and see that the sRGB profile has been assigned, and (3) if I open them up in Photoshop when the working space is not set to sRGB, a warning dialog pops up asking me how to proceed with color management. So by all indications the images are tagged. And since I haven't overwritten the originals, the same data is being read by the various applications, whether it be Preview, Photoshop, Canon DPP, or Firefox.
    My confusion stems from the fact that according to Photoshop and DPP, both are ICC-aware applications, yet they read the same data and display it in different ways. The file is the same. The display profile has not changed. Both applications report using the sRGB color space as the working space. And yet, they render the same image in dramatically different ways. And this is what I don't understand, and why I presently believe that a hardware calibration of the display will not help with my issue.
     
  21. Thanks for bearing with me on this. I do know for a fact that the images in question are tagged as sRGB, because (1) they come straight from the camera, (2) I can open up the EXIF metadata and see that the sRGB profile has been assigned.....​
    Assign sRGB using Photoshop (Assign Profile, save) to actually embed the ICC profiles. EXIF doesn't count!
     
  22. Under "Tools > Assign Profile," "Generic RGB" is not actually set, it's just the first option that pops up. Actually, if I select Generic RGB and apply it, the image displays correctly! (i.e. not over-saturated, brings back shadow detail, reds and skin tones under control). This is how I want Preview to display the colors. How can I do this?​
    I seem to have misunderstood the problem before, but I still do not think that Generic RGB profile has any place in most workflows. What does it look like if you assign sRGB? If it still looks wrong in that case, then the problem may be with whatever profile Preview thinks the monitor has.
     
  23. I seem to have misunderstood the problem before, but I still do not think that Generic RGB profile has any place in most workflows. What does it look like if you assign sRGB? If it still looks wrong in that case, then the problem may be with whatever profile Preview thinks the monitor has.​
    Hi Joe -- if I assign sRGB through Preview, it does not change the image at all (i.e. it still looks wrong). I'm trying this on several images now, and I hadn't even realized how dramatic the differences are. Setting the profile to Generic RGB via Preview for dark or silhouetted images brings back a ton of shadow detail and texture, almost what I would expect from a RAW file.

    I think you're on to something with the problem being "whatever profile Preview thinks the monitor has." How can I remedy that?

    Thanks so much for the help!
     
  24. I would assume that Preview uses whatever monitor profile is specified in the Devices section of the ColorSync utility, but so should Safari, Firefox, and Photoshop.
    Do all four change if you change the monitor profile in ColorSync? Could you try setting the monitor profile to sRGB as an experiment? Without knowing what your monitor is, I don't know if sRGB is likely to be close or not.
    Also, as a sanity check of embedded profiles, what does this image look like in those four applications?
    00TnUN-149359584.jpg
     
  25. Okay -- I made your suggested adjustments and here are my results:

    First I should tell you that I'm dealing only with the actual built-in LCD of my MBP, not an external monitor (sorry if I didn't make that clear already).

    The image you've embedded above appears in the following ways:
    Preview: If I drag and drop into Preview, the text turns green and says "The embedded profile is used"
    Firefox: "The embedded test profile is not used" in blue/red
    Safari: green text: "The embedded profile is used"
    Photoshop: when I open in photoshop, I get the message...
    "The document has an embedded color profile that does not match the current RBG working space.
    Embedded: Test RGB Profile
    Working: sRGB IEC61966-2.1"
    ...with three options. The different options result in:
    --discard the profile (don't color manage) = blue/red
    --convert to working space = green
    --use embedded profile instead of working space = green

    In Colorsync, my monitor is set to the factory default, which is "Color LCD." If I change this to sRBG, the monitor takes on a cool/blue-ish tone, but the color performance stays the same as I've listed above. That is, everything looks a bit cooler/brighter, but the RGB colors displayed in each instance stay the same in each application.
     
  26. Patrick, too make thing really really simple;
    1_Your monitor should be set to COLOR LCD or better, is own calibration. Nothing else. Not possible. Dont loose your time.
    2_Photoshop should be set to; sRGB (best all you can use color space) or Adobe RGB if you need it (from what i read i think you should stay with sRGB for now). Nothing else. Not possible. DOnt even think about putting a COLOR LCD or else there. SRGB is your friend.
    3_The web, and mostly all application are not color managed by default, so you can assume that if you put a sRGB image it should look good or close too everywhere.
    4_Photoshop, Safari and FireFox (if you turn the option ON) are color managed, meaning that they should look identical all 3 of them.
    5_Why Preview dont give you good result, why does he use a strange color space, ...i dont really care and you shoudltn neither..as you have discover, it give you bad result. Use it to read PDF documnet or to look at a image quickly. Dont use it for serious work.
    6_As for the pop up Photoshop window, you can set your preference to automaticaly do 2 of the thing ask ..but never never NEVER select DONT COLOR MANAGED. You can select in the Ps preference Color Setting, to automaticaly convert your open image to your color space OR to keep the embed profile..i select the second method personnaly IN CASE OF, but since i mainly open only my images, my color space workflow is set to the same one in all my color managed application.
     
  27. JoeC:
    Thank you for posting that image. Here are the results when I viewed it under the following circumstances:
    MacBook Pro (personal machine):
    Firefox 3.5: Text green, embedded profile is used
    Preview: Text green, embedded profile is used
    Canon DPP: Text green, embedded profile is used
    Photoshop CS2 (North American General Purpose 2): Text green, embedded profile is used
    Photoshop CS2 (Color Management off): Text blue/red, embedded profile is NOT used
    Windows XP (work machine):
    Internet Explorer 6: Text blue/red, embedded profile is not used.
    Therefore, my question still remains. Here is a sample image that I believe is tagged sRGB. It does not appear the same across the four applications I use on my MacBook Pro. DPP shows the image one way, Firefox, Photoshop, and Preview show it another way. (Apparently Firefox went over to the Dark Side--literally! Not sure how that happened.) How does that happen, if all four apps "passed" the embedded profile test image?
    00TnXg-149393884.JPG
     
  28. To Patrick Foran:
    Ok, so embedded profiles are working perfectly in everything but Firefox.
    I'm still not certain which of the two versions you posted (normal and oversaturated) is correcting for the monitor. It still seems like there are two possibilities:
    1. Preview is the only one which is supposed to be correct, but looks awful since the monitor profile does not match your macbook's screen. This seems more likely since you said that Photoshop used to look the same until you changed the RGB settings.
    2. Most of your images have no embedded color profile and those four applications make different assumptions about the lack of a profile. Andrew's suggestion that the sRGB is only EXIF data seems plausible.
    To Peter:
    Yes, that image does actually have an embedded sRGB profile. There can be two color conversions to get an image from a file to the screen. One is the image color space, the other is the monitor color space. It seems like this entire thread is about inconsistent behavior on the monitor color space, where some applications correct for it and some do not.
    Without knowing if the monitor profile is accurate or not, I cannot even tell if either version of the image is correct or which one.
     
  29. Ok, so embedded profiles are working perfectly in everything but Firefox.​
    Version 3.X and you've invoked color management? Its off by default.
    Type "about:config" on the address bar on Firefox without the quotes, filter for Color to find the o gfx.color_management.enabled;true (by double clicking on it). Quit and restart the app.
     
  30. Version 3.X and you've invoked color management? Its off by default.​
    This could not be true, because I am running Firefox 3.5 on MacOS 10.5.7, and when I checked the settings as you described, it clearly shows that color management is enabled for tagged images (Mode 2, see http://kb.mozillazine.org/Gfx.color_management.enabled ). I didn't do any customization to the default install, so it is enabled by default in the build I downloaded:
    Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.1) Gecko/20090616 Firefox/3.5
     
  31. Ok, so having found a Color LCD profile on the web, I tried converting to the Color LCD color space and came up with the attached photo. The result matches the way Preview renders it.
    I believe that Preview is the only application that is displaying as intended for Patrick Foran, and recommend trying to get Safari, Firefox and Photoshop to match Preview rather than the other way around. If the extra saturation really is blatantly wrong, then I also recommend finding a better display profile for the MacBook Pro.
    My apologies for not being able to figure that out sooner.
    Peter, you can try this suggestion from another photo forum, though it might be for a different version of DPP: “If not, start DPP and go to Tools > Preferences > General Settings tab and under the Color Matching section, select the monitor profile.”
     
  32. Joe, are you saying that the OP should use the Color LCD profile (or a custom display profile) in Photoshop and other application? hope not....
     
  33. Oops, didn't realize that images had to be posted somewhere to display them inline, here is the attachment again:
    00TnZm-149415984.jpg
     
  34. Joe, are you saying that the OP should use the Color LCD profile (or a custom display profile) in Photoshop and other application? hope not....​
    Hmm, I guess that was ambiguous. I mean that the Color LCD profile should be used as the monitor profile and not the RGB working space. Really a custom profile for the particular MacBook Pro would be better, but I'm not sure how to come up with one without a hardware colorimeter or spectrophotometer.
     
  35. But I don't *want* it to look oversaturated, and I can guarantee you that Patrick F. doesn't want that either.... :(
    When I open an sRGB image in PS with the color management on, I get oversaturated reds. That's the problem. I don't care about the application(s) telling me my profiles are matching and I've got a color-managed workflow. I don't care that Preview and Photoshop make the colors consistent across applications or in the print output, if the colors they show are consistently WRONG! I care about how it LOOKS and I am telling you that the way Photoshop and Preview are displaying the image is WRONG. At this point, I almost want to throw up my hands in frustration and say I don't care about color management period, because it only makes my images look horrible. I was doing way better without it, things were printing just fine, and I got CLOSE ENOUGH with my results. I don't need it to match up against a spectrophotometer's output, I need it to not look like everyone I take a picture of is afflicted with rosacea .
    I don't understand how anyone can look at the comparison posted by the OP and tell me with a straight face that the version that Preview is displaying is somehow the "correct" one. His face is WAY too red and it looks like he just tipped back a dozen shots of vodka. I also have a hard time believing that, after all this discussion, nobody has adequately addressed the same question I have asked repeatedly, which is why DPP shows me what I see on my camera's LCD, and what I think the image should look like, no editing, and yet Photoshop doesn't, when both by all indications are ICC-aware apps!
    You want proof that I'm using the right settings for DPP? I've attached the preference panes for both DPP and PS.
    Look, I'm sorry for the ranting. I know you're all trying to help and I do appreciate it greatly. I'm just so freakin' p***ed off by this issue, which I've never been able to get a satisfactory resolution to ever since I started using color management.
    00Tnb7-149431584.jpg
     
  36. Here's the way Photoshop CS2 is set up for me:
    00Tnb9-149431784.jpg
     
  37. But I don't *want* it to look oversaturated, and I can guarantee you that Patrick F. doesn't want that either.... :(
    I am not suggesting that anybody put up with it being oversaturated. What I am saying is that if the Color LCD profile is correct for the MacBook Pro's display, then the software is using it to make up for an undersaturated monitor. If the Color LCD profile is not correct, then ideally it would be replaced with a profile that was correct.
    Failing that, setting the monitor profile to sRGB would be a reasonable choice, so that sRGB tagged images would not be corrected for display to the monitor. I recommend that you do just that, and then I would expect that images would match between all applications. Myself I am nearly as unimpressed with this Color LCD as I am with Generic RGB. In my humble opinion, Apple has embraced two real duds of profiles there.
    I don't understand how anyone can look at the comparison posted by the OP and tell me with a straight face that the version that Preview is displaying is somehow the "correct" one.​
    On my monitor it is not the correct version, however it is possible that on the OP's monitor it is the correct version, since they are completely different monitors. It is also possible that neither one is correct on the OP's monitor.
    I've attached the preference panes for both DPP and PS.​
    Photoshop has not had a preference setting for the display profile since several versions ago, but it should use the display profile set in ColorSync. You can see in the DPP preferences that it is doing exactly what I suggested and converting to the sRGB color space instead of to the monitor color space. So with one change in ColorSync everything should both match and look the way you want it to.
    So as far as I know, that should be your resolution right there.
     
  38. Have you tried it in Aperture 2.1 maybe this programs works better with MBP?
     
  39. This is only a suggestion, and I do not know if it will work - but since reversible, it should not hurt to try. Mac OSX machines usually ship with Generic RGB profile enabled (in either displays/Color in system preferences or colorsync). Many have commented that Adobe RGB works better, particularly for laptops. Try this and see if it makes any difference. (This is really just a guess so it may just be a stupid suggestion)
     
  40. From all this long discussion..and since color management seem on top of the conversation..would it hurt the OP and anybody else to use a hardwae solution to get is monitor calibrated..
     
  41. I discovered this forum as a result of searching for answers to the same issue at the OP. I have an MBP, and had been using the OSX calibration software since I first got it. I read through this http://www.photo.net/learn/digital-photography-workflow/color-management/monitor-profiling/ several times and was convinced to get the Eye- One.
    A couple days ago, I finally got an Eye-One Display LT, ( about $150 ) and have run a couple calibrations in the Easy mode. Vastly improved over what I could do with my old eyes, in addition to the problem of narrow angle of laptop view etc.
    I agree with Patrick Lavoie, to get your monitor calibrated.
    Thanks to everyone, this discussion, and other threads on this topic have helped me with this vexing problem.
     
  42. But I don't *want* it to look oversaturated, and I can guarantee you that Patrick F. doesn't want that either.... :(
    When I open an sRGB image in PS with the color management on, I get oversaturated reds.​
    This is getting to be a big waste of time for some of us who understand what's going on here and trying to assist.
    You may not like the colors, but the facts are, the color numbers in Photoshop are showing you the correct preview and outside of any ICC aware, matching application, all bets are off. Its like suggesting that a too dark image can be "fixed" by altering the display brightness instead of altering the values in an image editor.
    For the last time! Photoshop is showing the numbers correctly if there's a proper embedded profile defining the RGB values and one has a good display profile. Anything that doesn't match is showing you science fiction in terms of the previews. Doesn't matter a lick which you visually prefer.
    There is no "with color management on with PS". You can't turn it off! Its always on. It always looks at the embedded profile and the display profile to produce an on screen preview. Period. You might have a piss poor display profile or you might have an untagged document (in which case, PS assumes the color space selected in color settings). Or you might have the wrong embedded profile. But the bottom line is, whatever Photoshop is showing you will be correct when the embedded profile is correct and the display profile is correct and if any other application shows you something otherwise, its the culprit.
     
  43. Here's the way Photoshop CS2 is set up for me:​
    Turn all the warning check boxes ON, try again. I'm out of here.
     
  44. I discovered this forum as a result of searching for answers to the same issue at the OP. I have an MBP, and had been using the OSX calibration software since I first got it. I read through this http://www.photo.net/learn/digital-photography-workflow/color-management/monitor-profiling/ several times and was convinced to get the Eye- One.
    A couple days ago, I finally got an Eye-One Display LT, ( about $150 ) and have run a couple calibrations in the Easy mode. Vastly improved over what I could do with my old eyes, in addition to the problem of narrow angle of laptop view etc.
    I agree with Patrick Lavoie, to get your monitor calibrated.
    Thanks to everyone, this discussion, and other threads on this topic have helped me with this vexing problem.
     
  45. sorry about the double post
     
  46. I'm intrigued by this thread because I think I understand color management reasonably well and I think I understand the original poster's complaint as well. I don't however understand what's going on. It seems rather contradictory.
    I have a Mac (running 10.4 though) and a hardware-calibrated LCD. Just to satisfy myself that this whole mess is crazy, I opened the same sRGB-tagged JPEG in Preview and Photoshop CS4. I put the windows side-by-side and looked carefully.
    It was pretty obvious to my eye that there was a subtle difference. I can't now remember which one it was, but one appeared lighter, or perhaps had lighter mid-tones even though darks were the same. In any case, I didn't expect this. It was clearly much less pronounced than the original poster's example. Still, I was surprised.
    I'm assuming that there are some complexities in JPEG decompression or color-managed rendering that lead to differences. Perhaps it's round-off errors or table-based optimizations or whatever. Adobe's code doesn't act the same way as Apple's. Which is closer to correct, I wonder.
     
  47. It was pretty obvious to my eye that there was a subtle difference.​
    You set the CMM to Apple instead of Adobe? And both are viewed at 100% zoom?
     
  48. I've tried my little experiment again. This time I did it at 100%, which is strangely unintuitive in Preview. I left Preview with the Apple CMM and I cycled Photoshop through Adobe ACE, Apple CMM and ColorGear CMM.
    I found that the color settings in Photoshop didn't matter very much, which is no surprise given that my image doesn't contain really challenging colors.
    I further found that, with both programs set to Apple CMM, I could still discern a subtle "lightness" to the Preview render, as compared to Photoshop. Again, nothing as strong as the original poster's example.
    I switched the positions of the window left-to-right and looked again. I started to question my sanity; so, I tried some science.
    I set both programs to Apple CMM, set the two windows side-by-side and used Grab to get a TIFF of the entire screen. I then pulled it into Photoshop and made a new document with two layers. One was what Preview showed; the other was what Photoshop showed. I aligned them and then set the blending mode to Difference for the top layer.
    In a perfect world, I should have seen uniform blackness, RGB 0 0 0. Instead, I could make out some ghost of my image. The RGB values were as high as 8 8 8.
    Again, I attribute this to differences of implementation, optimization or rounding. What else could it be?
     

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