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Choosing print paper for bright black & white photos


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Hello photography friends! I'm in the process of printing a new portfolio/sampler in A4 size. Some of the portfolio photos will be selected for clients and will be printed in larger sizes and I'm now in the process of finding the correct paper for this. What I need is a paper with the following specs:

1. will not have texture on it.

2. will be as bright as possible to faithfully (and fully) reproduce the available blacks and highlights.

3. will not have banding artifacts since most of my photos have smooth gray gradations that appear on my long exposure shots which include water parts and vignetted edges etc.

4. not matt, should be semi-gloss, pearl or glossy.

5. as close as possible to true white.

6. my available options are papers from Hahnemuhle and Innova.

 

*below is a photo very similar to the other ones in the portfolio, so that you can have an idea of the paper requirements.

 

1245576890_lesserheaventest.thumb.jpg.35935a8cde4d0f301b242713f79268dd.jpg

thank you in advance :)

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I have good luck printing black and white on my Epson R2880 printer with Epson Exhibition Fiber Paper. It should meet your requirements, at least if you use an Epson inkjet printer. Not sure about Hahnemuhle or Innova, but here is an older PNet discussion on printing black and white images for an exhibition,

Printing Black and White Digital images for an exhibition.

 

Nice photo - I like the smooth tonal gradients.

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  • 2 weeks later...
I've seen Epson Fiber prints and they are really good. The L-Prints look interesting.

L-Prints, nothing really new here, smaller color gamut by far than a modern ink jet (not a factor for B&W), not anywhere as archival, less options for papers.

The site for it referenced has more than a tad of marketing B.D. FWIW.

L.Type prints achieve amazing colour fidelity, with delta-e values of less than 1.0 across the gamut.

A meaningless statement as provided! Either they don't know what deltaE implies or believe their audience doesn't either.

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

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Unless it’s darkroom prints, I don’t see much point anymore in printing it yourself if it comes down to pushing a button that says ‘PRINT’ after having done all the digital customizing and editing in post-production and which is the key now prior to making the actual print. But after that, you might as well send it off to a high-end professional print lab which is more likely to do a better job at the actual printing than you can.

As master digital printer and one of the fellows who invented fine art digital printing at Nash Editions (Mac Holbert) states: The printer is a default device. What does that mean? All the work of making a fine print takes place before one pushes that so called PRINT button. So true.

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

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All the work of envisioning a print (which is what also makes the image, whether or not it's seen in print or on screen) is what takes place before one pushes the PRINT button.

Yes, that and preparing for the print; image editing, output specific edits based on a soft proof based on a profile and rendering intent. Output sharpening. All differ based on the printer! AND paper used which can differ tremendously in all the prep. Once that's set and the conversion takes place, the printer IS a default device and one simply presses that so called PRINT button. That doesn't mean all that has to take place prior isn't something many photographers and image makes do now wish to control for their desired rendering of the print:http://www.lumita.com/site_media/work/whitepapers/files/pscs3_rendering_image.pdf

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

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A truly great image transcends whatever its physical output is.

All digital images must be rendered. Either by a computer in the camera or by the person making (or maybe taking) the image. Not all photographers care or can render images themselves or print them. Hence cell phone's and even DSLRs that spit out a JPEG. Otherwise, this is what the digital camera produces:

http://www.digitaldog.net/files/raw.jpg

 

Do you now or have you ever owned a digital photographic printer Phil?

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

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Example of making an image after taking it:

Ansel's Anecdotes - The Making of Moonrise, Hernandez

Example of what a print maker & photographer can do as well! ;)

See: 'I instinctively felt I had an extraordinary image': Ansel Adams on capturing Moonrise over Hernandez

Zip to 5:54 minutes. I rest my case. :)

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

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The difference between you and Ansel Adams is that Adams was into photography and you seem to be into geek pixel peeping.
Seems suggests you're assuming! Yes, Adams was a photographer. You could examine my bkgnd* and see that I too was someone who fed his family shooting national ads, corporate annual reports and magazine work. Yes, non nondescript commercial photography, what specific descriptions would you like?

* https://www.linkedin.com/in/digitaldog/?trk=hp-identity-name

You?

How about that question if you now or ever have owned a digital photo printer? C'mon now... ;)

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

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Whooo...You and a thousand others. Do you want a medal for it?

That you can't answer a simple question about the subject of printing speaks volumes.

Do provide a client list as I did, of your commercial photography. Not snap's but stuff people paid to have created.

You ever shoot the Olympics? Shoot for Apple or Sony or Microsoft, Disney, Forbes or anyone like that?

Edited by digitaldog

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

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For the smoothest tonal transitions without banding, you may also want to check out L-type prints. I haven't tried them yet but their print technology seems especially suited for your type of image.

No.

If you've only imagined it, you haven't experienced it. Which is why I asked about your experience with digital photo printers. But that's moot and I think the mod's are right that we've gone OT and there's nothing to stop someone with little or no experience from stating opinions. Without data, you're just a person with an opinion.

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

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And neither did you tried or held them in your hands yet. Otherwise, you would have said so.

Which of the facts below, that do not require one to have a print sample needs further explaining? I ask because the print process was recommended and the facts about this process were provided:

L-Prints, nothing really new here, smaller color gamut by far than a modern ink jet (not a factor for B&W), not anywhere as archival, less options for papers.

The site for it referenced has more than a tad of marketing B.D. FWIW.

"L.Type prints achieve amazing colour fidelity, with delta-e values of less than 1.0 across the gamut."

A meaningless statement as provided! Either they don't know what deltaE implies or believe their audience doesn't either.

In an attempt to get back OT, I'd be happy to further explain that indeed, Type L prints have a smaller color gamut with actual 3D gamut maps. I'd be happy to provide a list of papers and surfaces that can be used in this process vs. ink jet and provide some outside references to the archival capabilities of pigmented ink jets vs. silver papers. And if you really want to go there, how deltaE is used and why:

 

Delta-E and color accuracy

In this 7 minute video I'll cover: What is Delta-E and how we use it to evaluate color differences. Color Accuracy: what it really means, how we measure it using ColorThink Pro and BableColor CT&A. This is an edited subset of a video covering RGB working spaces from raw data (sRGB urban legend Part 1).

Low Rez:

High Rez: http://digitaldog.net/files/Delta-E and Color Accuracy Video.mp4

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

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The concerns of the OP when it comes to the choice of print wasn't about color gamut but about b&w tonal range.

And options for papers and surfaces, and I would expect, light fastness over time. I fully admitted that for B&W, color gamut isn't an issue; you must have missed that. The site you referenced is also speaking of deltaE which is marketing BS! A data point. Also, depending on papers, the pigmented ink will have a higher Dmax than any papers the Type L can use.

I'm also not making this up:

Guide to Digital Printing: Inkjet Prints vs. C-Prints – Part 1

Inkjet printers use a greater range of color inks, both dye and pigment, than any other printing process. In addition, inkjet pigment prints exhibit greater contrast, smoother color gradations, deeper blacks (Dmax), and finer shadow details than chemical dye prints.

And:

Durst Lambda Compared to Inkjet: Does One Have a Fundamental IQ Edge?

Really. I've developed papers for inkjet that don't have the gloss differential. I will take that challenge anytime. You will never equal the quality that I have developed with inkjet. Beside the normal advantage of Dmax. Inkjet has a multitude of papers and surfaces including surfaces that match Lambda.

So let's ask the OP if dmax and lightfastness is a concern. If so, Type L prints or any sliver print will be at a disadvantage. I'm very sorry if those facts ruin your life.

 

Meanwhile, for those here that do print in color, here's the significant difference between the Type L print's color gamut on Luster paper compared to my Epson P800 on Luster paper:

http://digitaldog.net/files/LumaJetLustervsP800Luster.jpg

Notice the wider Lstar (black to white) range of the Epson?

Again, sorry if the colorimetric facts about Type L prints are ruining your day Phil, but facts is facts!

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

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It’s hilarious the way you seem to be equating all these boring graphs for actual photography when it comes to seeing and looking at a print.

Boring means you don't understand them? Again, I'm happy to explain them to you. Even though you are utterly unable to answer a simple question I've asked of you about your actual experiences with photo ink jet printers. Anyway, what's boring to you may be useful data to others here who unlike you, may have an interest in what a $600 ink jet can actually produced compared to an old silver based print technology you recommended but have zero experience with too. Enough said Phil.

"The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about". -Wayne Dyer

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

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I've printed hundreds of prints with an Epson 2100 (now clogged up) using Colorbyte's ImagePrint RIP.

That many? ;)

Anyway, thanks for at least finally answering my question. IF you need help unclogging it, or with ImagePrint (I was using it when it was first running under OS9), let me know.

Oh, there are no "abstract numbers" that I've provided. I think you might need a primer on color gamut.

http://digitaldog.net/files/12TheGreatColorSpaceDebate1.pdf

 

Edit: you've got a 16 year old printer there, I may not be able to help you unclog it!

Epson 2100 A3+ printer announced

25th April 2002 - EPSON created new benchmarks for photo-printing in 2000 with the launch of the award-winning STYLUS PHOTO 2000P. Now EPSON has once again developed new standards in photo printing with the launch of the Stylus Photo 2100.

I have to state another fact Phil: Ink jet printers, certainly from Epson have gotten better in 16 years....

Edited by digitaldog

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

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At one point I thought about reviving the 2100 for making Piezography prints with. It would be interesting to compare a B&W L-Type print to a Piezography print. And by comparing I mean holding both in one's hands.

Please do and report back.

If you want Dmax data, I’ll measure if you send.

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

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Personally, I prefer a matte or low luster surface for low key images, like the OP's example, on an inkjet. For normal, detailed or high key images, I use a luster paper. High gloss doesn't work well on an inkjet. Even if you can find the right paper, dense areas cause the surface to swell, spoiling the effect.
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Isn't the OP asking the wrong question then?.

Only if you believe this to be true: High gloss doesn't work well on an inkjet.

 

All generalizations are false, including this one.-Mark Twain

 

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

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The question is how much better does it perform or not with Piezography compared to standard inkjet printing?

 

Piezography Pro

Or without but using ImagePrint, or so on. But not the 'concept' that high gloss doesn't work well on an ink jet. I'm not buying that.

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

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