Cheapo Rangefinders for Street Photography

The winter here in Wisconsin has pretty much put a stop to my

outdoor photography efforts. So I loaded my N80 with some fast

grainy BW film and hung out at a nearby mall photographing people

and I think I really like the experience.

 

Maybe I have read too many Leica legends on photo.net, but I was

just thinking ... maybe I ought to try out a rangefinder for such

off the cuff street photography. Problem is, I know next to nothing

about rangefinders.

 

A search on the various auction sites showed that some older

rangefinders with fast lenses can be had dirt cheap, so no reason

not to try it out for $20. So my questions are:

 

1> Can you point me to a decent online introduction to rangefinders.

 

2> Since my student budget won't get me a Leica, what underrated

rangefinder would you suggest I try out - I have been looking at a

couple of Canonet and Olympus models but really have no idea.

 

3> Do any of these come with interchangeable lenses? If so, it would

only be a benefit if they take Nikon F-mount lenses - although even

then it would have the 50/1.8 on about 90% of the time.

 

4> Any cheap rangefinder that takes 120 film instead of 35mm?

 

I am mainly thinking of BW street photography and then developing

myself. It will not replace my N80. So what I am looking for in

order of preference - small, sleek, silent and unobtrusive,

reasonably fast and sharp lens, light meter, if possible but I could

do without any form of automation. Also any arguments _against_

getting a cheap rangefinder for street photography would be welcome

too.

 

Thanks in advance,

-A

don't do it!

 

it will start you down the road of ruin and you will never be able to get back on track.

rf cameras are addictive.

i have 7 of them and i just got rid of at least that many.

and i seem to always be looking for more.

 

however...

 

if you want cheap & good lenses and don't mind size---look at minolta 7s/9/11, konica s2, yashica gsn. there are lots to choose from.

 

but really, run.............

 

joe

First recommendation: a good Konica S2. It's big, but has a very nice lens. The alternative is the Canonet QL17 G-III, which is smaller and slightly better handling, but I don't like the lens as much.

Back Alley is right...you can get hooked on RFs. Ask my wife.

 

And as a Minolta RF user I second all of his suggestions. If you want small, look for the Minolta Hi-Matic 7sII, Olympus XA or Olympus RC models. More expensive but probably worth it if size & weight are important. For some odd reason the Minoltas generally seem to be less favored and are often sold at bargain prices.

 

You could also pick up an old Argus Brick. No automation there. Interchangeable lenses, too.

 

Arguments against: some of these cameras rely on obsolete batteries to function. Try to find a model which offers mechanical shutter so you won't be SOL if your batteries poop out.

 

There is also a similar thread on older Yashica RFs in the Classic Cameras forum. Good luck.

I'm just about to put a Yashica G on ebay. Contact me if you want pictures. It will fit your

budget and is a beatiful camera. saabnorth (at) att (dot) net

Take a look at the following link. Lots of good info on many types of rangefinders. Look about 2/3 of the way down the page at the Compact 35's.

 

http://cameraquest.com/classics.htm

 

Remember to factor in the price of service. Most of the old Japanes rengefinders need new light seals, shutter service, and a clean and alignment of the rangefinder for best results. All the same, you'll get a fantastic camera for a song.

 

Robert

Cameraquest.com is a must read to get up to speed on these cameras. The archives here on PN also have many, many posts on this type of question. My suggestion is the Canonet GIII QL 17, but they are a bit pricey these days for a reliable one because they are so popular.

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=007Ol6

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=007cXc

 

Alan

unfortuneatly, the <i>don't do it!</i> was a valid point. it hit my at least. but other than that, i'll throw in another vote for the s2.

So you'll get a myriad of suggestions for the actual camera, Olympus XA, Yashica Lynx, Electro GX, G, GSN, Canonet, etc... So I'll try to take on the other questions you have.

 

1. cameraquest.com has been mentioned, photoethnography.com has a good site. Yashica-guy.com and diaxa.com are also some sites you might want to look at.

 

2. Others will have their own opinion on the board, but Yashica Electro and Canonet QL17 GIII are the two mainstays in this space. They're easy to use and pretty robust, and the glass on both are great.

 

3. Most of these are fixed lenses, partially because they were made for consumers and also because a lot of them have copal shutters which are hard to build for interchangeable lens. If interchangeable lenses are important to you, it will be hard to come by one that uses an SLR mount. Zorkis and FEDs are russian made rangefinders that do have interchangeable lenses, but I don't know too much about them...

 

4. Once again, since most of these rangefinders were made for consumers, the cameras made in the 60s and the 70s used the more popular 35mm film. The old voightlander bessas and the zeiss ikonta (sp?) i believe use 120 film, but i'm not sure if they are coupled rangefinders and they are a lot larger than the other cameras you've been talking about. On another note, the Holga is not a rangefinder, but it does make fun 6x6 negatives and they can be quite fun to shoot with. They cost $16 bucks new, and they are a toy camera with plastic lenses and severe vignetting.

oh, and heed the others' warning... This can become addictive as all get out!!!

I would most definitely start from here:

 

<p><a href="http://www.dantestella.com/technical/rangefinder.html">Does a rangefinder camera make you a better photographer?</a></p>

 

nothing scientific or anything, purely subjective, but there is some entertaining stuff around the site for sure. Makes good bathroom reading for me.

 

I have been doing street photography in my own enthusiastic amateur capacity for some time now, and I flirted with the rangefinder idea too. As a matter of fact, just last week I played around with one (an old fixed lens Canon rangefinder) in a used camera store.

<p>

The first time I focused with it would be the last time I ever touched a rangefinder. From the moment I understood what rangefinder focusing is all about, I knew it was not for me. The only possible use of a rangefinder for me would be hyperfocal, focusless shooting with fast (TMY, or TMY @ 800) film. But I can already do that using my manual focus Minolta cameras (as far as I am concerned, my black Minolta XD-11 is at least cool looking as any non-Leica rangefinder) using whatever lens I want (the range from 24mm to 50mm makes sense for that).

<p>

There is a new Bessa R3 rangefinder model out there, and a new fast 40mm f/1.4 lens that is apparently a killer has just been released. You might want to go to astore and try one out for your self, as well as some older Canon and Minolta models (Minolta has one Leica M mount model that might be interesting).

<p>

I bet, like me, you will know right away if a rangefinder is indeed right for you. Good Luck. Take a look here too:

 

<p><a href="http://www.rangefinderforum.com/">http://www.rangefinderforum.com/</a></p>

 

Check out this:

<p><a href="http://www.rokkorfiles.com/7SII.htm">The Minolta Hi-matic 7SII</a></p>

 

and this:

<p><a href="http://members.aol.com/manualminolta/minfind.htm">Minolta CLE</a></p>

<p>Abandon all hope, ye who enter here...</p>

 

<img src="http://www.growlery.com/images/camera_insanity/too_many_cameras_01.jpg">

 

<p>The path of madness and ruin...</p>

<p>Regards,</p>

<p>Wiggy</p>

Anupam -

<BR><BR>

I have a Minolta HiMatic and a Yashica Electro GSN you could borrow for a couple weeks

and if you decide to buy either one afterwards, you can have either for $25. The Minolta is

the 11, shutter priority, and the Yashica is the old Electro, aperture priority. I live in

Chicago so let me know if you're interested - but like everyone says, the first one is free or

at least cheap...

<BR><BR>

The references above are good starting points, and also check out <a href="http://

www.photoethnography.com/equipment.html"> photoethnography.com </a>

<BR><BR>

sorsa2 AT comcast.net

<BR>

Don

I'd take Don up on his offer.

 

Rangerfinders are like trying out a mattress, you love it or hate it pretty quickly.

 

I have owned Leicas since about 1978. I also own a selection of Nikons including the D100. Guess which cameras get the most use? So that article quoted earlier regarding rangefinders is pretty humoursous to me.

 

Check out http://www.magnumphotos.com/c/Home_MAG.aspx

Many of the photographers listed use rangefinders, even the ones that are still alive. The few that I know say they could have taken many of their photographs with their high school camera.

Thanks for all the answers. I guess I will wade in in spite of all the dire warnings. Don, thank you for your kind offer - but since I am just getting into this whole RF thing - please let me take a couple more days to read up on the models and decide.

 

One limitation I noticed on the Canon QL GIII was the fact that ISO was limited to 800. Is this common. I have been pushing film to 3200 and even 6400 on my N80 and soetimes I just love grain - it would be nice not to be limited in terms of ISO. Do these cameras allow one to use exposure compensation instead?

 

Another thing. I almost never use shutter priority on my SLR. A-p or manual - do all of these bodies allow full manual control, i.e. override camera meter recommendations or are they limited like the Nikon EM?

 

thanks again,

-A

A lot of people here are using the Soviet stuff: FED, Kiev, etc. Seem to be really cheap.

Cheapo rangefinder? You have gotto get a Leica M! If the digital proponents have got it right then these are about to get really cheap really soon!

 

But seriously, you may also consider s small (in size only) SLR? Two come to mind - Pentax ME or MX with a 50mm 1.4 lens. The reason I suggest this is because it is not very much bigger than the Canon QL's, Yashicas etc but the lens is nice and fast. Also the metering is better and they do not use old 1.35 volt batteries. You can hold it in the palm of your hand but I guess it is not totally unobstrusive. A minox (35mm) or XA would be better in this regard but they are getting a bit long in the tooth now.

Well, looks like everyone is on the same page here.

 

To answer your last couple questions,

 

Yes, most of the cameras in this class will be limited to a metered range of ISO/ASA 800. When they were built, in the 60s and 70s, ASA 400 film was really fast and quality wise at the edge of acceptability.

 

And, only some of them have manual override. The Canonet QL17 GIII does, I believe some of the Yashica Electros do. Others too, I just don't recall which. You will be able to find lots of info regarding almost any camera you consider. Which will help you decide which will be best to get second, and third and...

The Yashica Lynx 14E IC has an excellent meter, a great f/1.4 lens and is fully manual.

Some of the rangefinder will shoot fully manual so you could

use them in that mode with 3200 film and a handheld meter.

I've had a few rangefinders over the years. My favourite was a black Konica Auto S3 I bought new in 1975 or 76. Even so, it wasn't used much in comparison to my Pentax 35mm SLR at the time. Personally, I've never seen the point of maintaining separate systems in the same format. Since you already have an F80, why don't you just consider buying a fast prime lens for it, like a 35mm or a 50mm. It's hard to imagine anything being less obstrusive, lighter or even more silent overall than an F/N80 with a small prime lens, and, this camera/lens combination will be better than any compact fixed lens rangefinder from the 1970's. There's nothing a rangefinder can do that this combination couldn't. Still, I guess everyone gets the bug to try a rangefinder sometime : )

 

...and wastes a lot of money in the process of finding out.

Automation is less expensive in these older cameras. Canonet 28's are cheaper than Canonet QLGIII's, Olympus 35 ED's are cheaper than 35 RC's or RD's, etc, and may give better images and be more reliable IMHO. Also there are all mechanical cameras for reasonable prices, Kodak Retina I's, Agfa Solinettes and Ansco Regents

Anupam - Read up, borrow a few, burn some film, have fun. Answers to all your

questions are above or in one of the links - there's no shortage of info on old

rangefinders. If you or anyone in the Chicago area wants to test drive my very inexpensive

Minolta or Yashica, this is an open offer. They're fun cameras with excellent glass but my

eyes and hands are too slow, and I have other toys to shoot with.

does a butcher have only one knife, a surgeon only one scapel?

 

cameras are tools to get jobs done.

 

an slr is a fine tool and so is a rangefinder. they have different jobs is all.

 

joe