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Censored nudes?


doughorspool

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I'm new to this, so forgive the question. I had a photo removed from the "Legacy" contest, I assume because it was a nude model. This was a very nice fine art type photo. Do I have to censor my nudes? A huge part of photography is of the human form. How can that be left out?

 

Sorry, follow up question: Once I have a photo removed from a contest, how do I submit another, different one (not nude), i.e., how do I remove that photo from my list of submissions?

 

Thanks for any responses,

Doug

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Hi Doug - nudes are required to be appropriately categorized as nudes as we have member that use the site that do not with to see that category. Users can click (view or hide) and proper classification to the photo is necessary for that to happen. We also have advertisers that support the site that do not want their ads associated with that category - "brand safety" goes hand in hand with ad budgets of endemic brands to photography - for better or worse - thats the deal. As it relates to censorship our Terms of Use outlines the policy - User Content may include nude photos or other images or material that an individual might find offensive, indecent and/or objectionable. We will determine, in our sole discretion, whether User Content containing nudity is acceptable. Our decision is final even if an individual user disagrees with our judgment. We reserve the right (but assume no obligation) to edit, redact or delete User Content that we consider unacceptable or inappropriate, or for any other reasons, which we need not disclose, at our discretion and convenience. When removing images that are contained in User Content, we may remove only the images to which we object, all the images in a folder, or all the images in the User's portfolio, at our convenience and discretion.
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Do I have to censor my nudes?

Unfortunately, you do. But I'll tell you why the PN policy is confusing. Although we're told we can't post nudes to other forums and your nude has disappeared, in the last year a nude has been chosen a couple of times as Photo of the Week which is a pretty visible place on PN. The inconsistency is somewhat confounding.

A huge part of photography is of the human form.

It is. Not just photography, but all art. Photography and art websites don't always represent well what either photography or art are about.

How can that be left out?

By appeasing a particular group and way of thinking. The policy on nudes is also obviously in large part financially driven in that advertisers (as much or more than considerations of art, photographic history, or what's right) exercise an enormous amount of control.

Edited by Norma Desmond
We didn't need dialogue. We had faces!
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Unfortunately, you do. But I'll tell you why the PN policy is confusing. Although we're told we can't post nudes to other forums and your nude has disappeared, in the last year a nude has been chosen a couple of times as Photo of the Week which is a pretty visible place on PN. The inconsistency is somewhat confounding.

 

It is. Not just photography, but all art. Photography and art websites don't always represent well what either photography or art are about.

 

By appeasing a particular group and way of thinking. The policy on nudes is also obviously in large part financially driven in that advertisers (as much or more than considerations of art, photographic history, or what's right) exercise an enormous amount of control.

 

Not sure what to say other than our moderators use their best judgement and have the best interests of all parties in mind when making decisions. If we don't do this - we have no sponsors and we have no site, and I'm not sure how that helps photography or the subject of art. We do have nudes on the site, however they need to be properly categorized, as we can not show ads on them. If we do we're violation of brand safe agreements we make with sponsors. Want to change this? Talk to ad agencies and their sponsors about how they determine what is "brand safe" - we are simply complying with their requests so we can fund the site. If you look at it through that lens, it makes sense doesn't it?

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I'm new to this, so forgive the question. I had a photo removed from the "Legacy" contest, I assume because it was a nude model. This was a very nice fine art type photo. Do I have to censor my nudes? A huge part of photography is of the human form. How can that be left out?

 

Sorry, follow up question: Once I have a photo removed from a contest, how do I submit another, different one (not nude), i.e., how do I remove that photo from my list of submissions?

 

Thanks for any responses,

Doug

 

BTW - love your portfolio. I can view all your photos if I adjust my settings to view nudes. Each photographer logged in here has the ability to adjust their settings to view them and most do. Some don't - but that is their choice for that entire category.

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it makes sense doesn't it?

Most of it does. Some of it doesn't.

Not sure what to say other than our moderators use their best judgement and have the best interests of all parties in mind when making decisions.

I know we're not supposed to discuss moderation in public threads, but I assume I can briefly respond since you opened the door. I have no doubt moderators have the best of intentions. Nevertheless, there are some inconsistencies, such as the one I pointed out where Nudes have been selected as POTW, a highly-visible and front-page linked feature of PN. Regardless of intentions, it winds up giving strangely mixed messages. That moderators, or anyone else for that matter, use their best judgment doesn't mean that judgment can't be questioned and reviewed for things like this that may innocently get through the cracks.

Want to change this?

Not really, in this instance. I understand business, and you'd already explained it quite well. Your policy makes sense based on the situation you describe. I'm all for the site surviving and if it takes acceding to the desires or even bowing to demands of advertisers (lots of businesses do), so be it. But knowing that it's unfeasible to change it doesn't mean I have to like it and doesn't mean I can't make clear how I feel about it, especially in expressing empathy to a fellow member whose photo was deleted from a contest. Our culture has an unhealthy attitude toward nudity, and just because it's pretty much accepted and decisions are made based on it, doesn't mean that general attitude can't be questioned even while accepting that policies are ultimately being made based on those attitudes.

We didn't need dialogue. We had faces!
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To play the devil's advocate .. : -) .. nudes create traffic flow, traffic flow creates revenue.

I agree - its a paradox for the digital age for sure. All I can tell you is that US brands that support this site are represented by ad agencies that tout their ads will only run on brand safe sites. Now if we could fund the site without advertising and only through subscriptions...but even then, we would still have a segment of users that have told us they want the choice of seeing nudes (ability to turn on or off). Its a delicate balance. We are doing our best to keep everyone happy - and we all know, you can never keep everyone happy.

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I think it all boils down to priorities. And, again, I'm not advocating the site change because I think you've come up with a realistic policy given the mores that are being demanded by those in charge of advertising. But what's interesting to note is how our society seems almost obsessed with nudity and protecting "brand safe" policies while we've been learning that behind closed doors the policy many in power have adopted has been to practice, promote, or look the other way in the face of rampant sexual harassment and abuse, sometimes by the very people making restrictive policies for the rest of us. We're slowly waking up to the fact that so much of what we, as a society, put up with in terms of so-called safe policies is a mere DISTRACTION. The policies about nudity being demanded are not so much about a sense of decency or brand safety at all. They're more of a manipulation offered to make us think we're somehow a "safe" society, as if not portraying nude bodies somehow translates to our safety or moral or family values. Why else would we be not allowed to show nude women in the more public parts of the site but, if the woman is clothed, we'd be allowed to show her in the same public forum in bondage or being attended to by a man with whips and chains? Because it's not about safety, that's why. My point in speaking up earlier is simply that just because we abide by and even accept these policies doesn't mean we shouldn't recognize the bigger picture of what's actually going on and continue to voice more truthful understandings of the issues in hopes for eventual change. The policies aren't as regrettable as staying silent in the face of them.
We didn't need dialogue. We had faces!
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All sounds good, but in the end lets not lose sight of the fact that we still have nudes on the site and those that wish to view nudes can do so. Those that advertise don't want their ads on those pages which is their choice and we should respect that. So in the end - we have allowed for choice here, which is about as fair as you can get IMHO.
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we should respect that

I accept the advertisers' choice, but won't agree to respect it.

 

As for "allowing for choice," yes, and I can still recognize that it's limited and restricted. Nudes are the only genre of photograph which gets this curtained-off but available treatment and also the only genre that cannot be included in No Words posts, forum posts, or contests, where there's no choice at all.

which is about as fair as you can get IMHO.

I don't think this is about fairness. Life is not fair, something else we learn to accept and can try to change or not, depending on the situation. Those in power, often economic power, have more power than those not in power. Those not in power don't need to be told how fair things are.

Edited by Norma Desmond
We didn't need dialogue. We had faces!
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I believe most people understand that not everyone wants to view nudes and should have the choice to view or not to view - and that advertisers don't want their ads on nudes, so "we" (assuming "we" want their support - because without it, the alternative is no site) should make every effort to respect that - which we do. As for life not being fair, well - that goes beyond the scope of this conversation as this conversation is about nudes on the site and how we require nudes to be properly categorized as agreed to in our T&C when signed up. As I said earlier - its impossible to please everyone. Those that try to please everyone (while admirable for their effort to do so) will undoubtedly fail.
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As for life not being fair, well - that goes beyond the scope of this conversation

If that's the case, why did you bring up fairness in order to explain the policy? I was merely responding to your use of "fair."

I believe most people understand that not everyone wants to view nudes

I understand it as well. I also understand that PN has chosen a compromise which appeals to those who don't want to view nudes, a compromise I've agreed to and have always abided by as a member here. Again, I can understand the compromise and I can abide by the compromise while also voicing my opinion of what I think are unfortunate underlying values leading to the compromise. You keep justifying the policy in response but I'm just expressing frustration at a cultural emphasis on the morality of nudity which leads to such policies.

the alternative is no site

There seem to be photography sites that allow unfiltered nudity, so I'm not sure the alternative is no site. The alternative, I think, would be a different kind of site meant for a somewhat different demographic, likely with a different type of advertising. Having said that, of course those in charge of PN are entitled to create whatever kind of site they want. It's not because there's no alternative that PN does what it does. It's because this is what the owners want the site to be. And they're allowed to do that without rationalizations that put the responsibility on "most people" or the advertisers. PN policy expresses PN values.

We didn't need dialogue. We had faces!
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