len_smith Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 I need a 21mm lens for my Leica M outfit and am considering the two 21mm lenses in the Carl Zeiss range. There are f/2.8 Biogon and f/4.5 Distagon versions. I have read good reports of the f/2.8 Biogon but I wonder if the f/4.5 Distagon has any optical advantages that offset the smaller maximum aperture? For example, is there less distortion, and is it sharper in the corners at f/4.5 than the f/2.8 lens stopped down to f/4.5? There is hardly any cost advantage (about 10% - 15% cheaper for the f/4.5 Distagon ) so I think there must be a good reason for Carl Zeiss to offer a second lens in this focal length. I am looking for optical competence above all else. I shoot with comparatively heavy and bulky Canon DSLRs so whether the f/4.5 is lighter or more compact than the f/2.8 does not really matter so much to me. The lowest possible distortion coupled with optimum sharpness across the frame are what I am looking for. I would welcome advice from anyone who has used or tested both lenses, plus any pointers to trusted reviews, particularly any reviews of the f/4.5 Distagon. I am also considering the ZM 18mm f/4 Distagon and would welcome links to reviews. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
len_smith Posted September 23, 2007 Author Share Posted September 23, 2007 I apologise for describing the 21mm f/4.5 as a Distagon, when in fact it is a "C Biogon", presumably C for "Classic" to go with the C Sonnar 50mm f/1.5. I wonder if the design follows the Biogon 21mm f/4.5 for the classic Contarex? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian_caldwell Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 Published data from Zeiss shows about 5x more distortion for the 21/2.8 than for the 21/4.5, and that its the "gullwing" type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrivers Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 www.reidreviews.com Sean Reid did a comparison of the 21 Leica, both Zeiss, and the Cosina LTM on an M8. He has also recently reviewed the new Cosina 21P which is an M mount. This is a pay site, but has a wealth of information regarding a number of lenses on an M8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vivek iyer Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 Tony, The 21/4.5 is similar to the old Contax lens. Check out Peter Volle's postings (classic cameras) for samples. Absolutely fabulous. I don't have this lens but I use larger brothers of this lens (38mm for MF and 75mm for LF). It is extremely difficult to say if a wide angle lens is used at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fourfa Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 I'm not clear from your post - are you interested in mounting these on your heavy and bulky Canon DSLRs? None of the ZM lenses are compatible with SLRs. The Contax-N and Contax/Yashica SLR lenses are, but that's a whole different ball of wax... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf_rainer_schmalfuss Posted September 24, 2007 Share Posted September 24, 2007 Hello Tony, the answer is quite simple. If you need the maximum of zero distortion, pick the compact "classic" Biogon 4,5/21mm. If you need more speed, pick the Biogon 2,8/21mm. If you need more wide angle, pick the Distagon 4/18mm. ALL of these ZEISS glasses are excellent! Make your choice. Cheers Wolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jose_angel Posted September 24, 2007 Share Posted September 24, 2007 I`m afraid the ZM 18/4 isn`t available yet. If I`m wrong, please let me know. Have you seen the similarities between both 21`s made by Cosina? (Zeiss 21/4.5ZM and Voigtlander 21/4P). Same elements, groups, almost exactly design on the papers... I suppose both are Biogon derivatives, and the Zeiss one enjoy T* coatings and better construction. Also, I can expect better performance from a lower max. speed (flare and corner performance wide open); the main difference is on the price list... What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf_rainer_schmalfuss Posted September 24, 2007 Share Posted September 24, 2007 Hello Jose, yes, of course the ZM Classic Biogon T* 4,5/21mm is available. The lens is very compact and idea for travel. All the ZEISS ZM glasses can be ordered also directly from ZEISS with your credit card. Cheers Wolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
len_smith Posted September 24, 2007 Author Share Posted September 24, 2007 Many thanks for some excellent replies. As a general comment, all the lenses discussed, including the ZM 18mm f/4 Distagon, are now available in Japan. I presume that supplies will soon trickle into US and Euro markets if they haven't already arrived. Thanks to Brian Caldwell for pointing out the much lower distortion of the 21mm f/4.5 C Biogon. That would appear to make the choice simpler, as low distortion is a top priority for me. I have often considered buying one of the Contarex Biogons and have it converted to Leica M mount. To be able to buy a brand new one with Leica M mount and a warranty is far preferable, especially as the price is extremely reasonable for such a stellar performer. Sean Reid's reviews (recommended by Michael Rivers, thanks!) make it clear that the C Biogon 21mm f/4.5 is indeed a stellar performer. Reid also rates the Cosina/Voigtlander 21mm f/4 P (M mount) very highly, but crucially is reviews don't measure distortion. The previous Skopar had quite a lot of distortion and achieving low distortion is a high priority for me, so I don't think the Cosina/Voigtlander 21mm would be the right choice for me. But thanks to Jose Angel for his suggestion, and as Sean Reid says, there is no better value for money in 21mm lenses than the C/V. The replies from Vivek Iyer and Wolf Rainer Schmalfuss point me more strongly towards the C Biogon 21mm f/4.5 and I thank them both for that. So a decision has been made. It will be the Carl Zeiss ZM C Biogon 21mm f/4.5, a classic lens design with all the benefits of modern manufacture and a very low price. Thank you to all who replied, your comments have been very helpful indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steven_moseley1 Posted September 24, 2007 Share Posted September 24, 2007 Hi, I assume Zeiss has improved it's online order processing, since my own online experience of Zeiss was awful as this post on PN in the Nikon forum will show: steven moseley, Jun 22, 2006; 02:23 p.m. Hi again Shun, Here is my post on another earlier thread on this subject..apologies to all who have seen it.. Hi, I am a UK Contax/Zeiss user and ordered the ZF 50/1.4 from the Zeiss web site about 6 weeks ago... .....the German 'distributor' a company called 'RENTA' taking the payment, emailed me within 24 hrs after I placed the order on Zeiss.de but just said in a curt email the lens was not yet available and gave no payment option details, no ship cost and no delivery date, so I emailed back with the questions.. .....out of the blue came a full invoice, but still no delivery date and they only gave electronic bank xfer as a payment option...I went to my UK bank, who needed more info to process the xfer...I emailed Renta and aked for receiving bank name/address etc.. ....no answer at all after waiting 2 weeks....so I emailed Zeiss to point out the order through Renta was proving difficult... ....email back from Renta about a week after my complaint to Zeiss (they just passed it on and did not bother to email me themselves)....but the email from Renta STILL had not got the missing info to do the xfer.... ....another email from me to Renta asking for the THIRD time, the address/name of their bank.... ....finally after another 5 days...the info I need to do the xfer arrives from Renta..I did the xfer a few days ago and am now waiting....it has so far taken 6 weeks! I feel like I have been dealing with some amateur operation working from someones backroom, so why on earth are Zeiss incapable of setting up a secure wesite ordering service and taking credit cards..I thought the Germans were organised? Conclusion...Zeiss, yet again, shoot themselves right in the foot.. Shun...the production of the 85/1.4 has apparently been halted and no-one knows why..I am a member of the contax.info forum and the guy there is in contact with Zeiss to try to find out why. It is not now available and we do not know when it may appear! Cheers Steve. ...I also assume that Zeiss has now installed online credit card facilities and therefore joined the 21st century? cheers Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vivek iyer Posted September 24, 2007 Share Posted September 24, 2007 It takes a few minutes to order an item from cameraquest and the shipping is very prompt. Never dealt with Zeiss. Will not venture there if it is like this. Easier to import these to Europe from Hong Kong!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
len_smith Posted September 24, 2007 Author Share Posted September 24, 2007 I will be buying from a Zeiss dealer in Japan, with the help of a friend who lives there. I have heard some bad reports about buying direct from Zeiss in Germany, plus the prices are very much higher than in Japan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurentvuillard Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 I owned (then stupidely sold) the original zeiss 21mm f4, it was great and if the new one is like it, go fo rit! What was truly amazing was the sharpness of the Leica 21asph, I did try it and the amount of detail was stunning such as its price! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurentvuillard Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 I owned (then stupidely sold) the original zeiss 21mm f4, it was great and if the new one is like it, go fo rit! What was truly amazing was the sharpness of the Leica 21asph, I did try it and the amount of detail was stunning such as its price! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf_rainer_schmalfuss Posted September 30, 2007 Share Posted September 30, 2007 Hello Tony, can you please give us an example, why ZM lenses are cheaper from Japan as from Germany! Thanks Cheers Wolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
len_smith Posted September 30, 2007 Author Share Posted September 30, 2007 Wolf, The comparison is between the list price set by Carl Zeiss in Germany and the prices asked by several dealers in Japan who compete with each other and sell at a discount to the list price. I am sure that dealers in Germany will also sell at prices lower than the Carl Zeiss list price. However, at this time, dealers in Japan have these lenses in stock, whereas it appears that dealers in Europe are unable to satisfy my order without a long wait. I hope that answers your question. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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