Canon 7D

<p>Hi,<br>

I am seriously considering the Canon 7D as an upgrade from Canon 450D. Not that the 450D is of bad quality. Canon 7D should be a good upgrade due to high fps, better high-iso handling and better build.<br>

I have considered the D300s as an alternative but IMO I do not want to invest in Sigma. I have read alot and getting a good sigma lens seems like it is a lottery. So you have to send it back, get another copy and so forth. So I would prefer to stick with Canon lenses.However some people opt for lower build and image quality vs price. Granted but I would prefer to go for faster AF, less AF hunting in the dark etc...Tamron IMO supply better lenses however I have never owned one.Is my reasoning correct?<br>

Could any Canon 7D user provide an 'unbiased' feedback or objective judgement on the quality of images vs the Canon 50D and noise at 100 ISO and 1600..and plus..?. I had read some users that noise is even evident at ISO 100?!.How is that?!. 18MP sensor is too big for an APS-C sensor...<br>

The equipment I would like to invest in is the following:<br>

Canon 7D body<br />Canon 85mm f1.8 USM <br />Canon 70-200mm f2.8 USM non-IS<br>

Maybe a Tamron AF 28-75mm f/2.8 SP XR ZL Di LD<br />Maybe a Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f2.8 XR Di-II LD Asph. IF </p>

<p><strong>Future purchase</strong><br />Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM <br /><br>

I would like to use my gear mostly for (in order of liking):<br>

1) Concert photography<br>

2) General photography / travel<br>

3) Landscape<br>

4) Portaiture</p>

<p>Would be grateful for any ideas.</p>

<p>I upgraded from 450D to 7D just a few weeks ago. It's still early to give to a complete feedback, I can just report some early feelings:<br>

First of all, I've seen a significant improvment in image quality, more than I expected. I compared the two bodies with the very same conditions (lens, lights etc) and you can always see the 7D has an edge.<br>

Coming from the 450D the AF system in the 7D looks just amazing.<br>

I shot a lot in poor light. With the 450D ISO 800 was the upper limit for me, with the 7D I am fine with ISO 1600 and I am going to try and push it even more than that.<br>

I know I am not directly answering your questions, but I felt it was worth sharing since you plan to follow the same upgrade path.</p>

<p>I made the move from the 400D to the 7D.<br>

If you use the 450d manually then you'll find the 7D a lot better, you are sacrificing the P.I.C modes (macro mode, sports mode etc) but you have lot more flexibility in terms of camera speed and AF tweakability.<br>

You don't mention anything that suggests you need 8fps, as such would you consider the 550D? Same chip as the 7D same layout as your rebel.<br>

I used to use an ST-E2 with my 400D I find the built in wireless works better, especially outdoors.<br>

The AF sensitivity (more points, all cross type, versus centre cross type only on rebels) is fantastic, I get a lot more keepers.<br>

I use my 7D with a 17-40 f4L, Sigma 12-24 (The canon equivalent was EF-S only, and more money), Canon 50mm f1.8, Sigma 70mm MAcro and 70-200 f2.8 non IS.<br>

The 70-200 f2.8L sings on the 7D. I used it for speedway and it is a dream to use (once you set up the Ai Servo behaviour the way you want)<br>

The handling is much more like my old 3, love the rear qcd, love the penta-prism viewfinder, much better than on the rebels, love the sheer speed.<br>

On my 400D the top ISO I would use confidently was 400, on the 7D its 1600.<br>

I can't vouch for any of the tamron lenses and I considered the 85mm prime to be inflexable and a little used focal length (effective 135 is too tele for portraits for my taste.<br>

Make the leap and you will feel a lot of handling benefits and a lot of control benefits. I wouldn't rule the 550D out as for your primary applications, it will work almost as well for half the price.</p>

<p>James - unlike the other two I went the other way as the 7D is the first APS-C body I have owned. It is a remarkable camera and produces very good results. Its sports performance is as good as my 1DIIN which it is well on its way to replacing. IQ wise it is very good - not up to 5DII standards by still a big upgrade from a Rebel. In terms of ISO I will post some crops of hockey shorts to show high ISO noise. While people complain of noise at 100 ISO this is the results of one of two things - either they are super critical (between 0.5% and 1% of pixels will be noisy at ISO 100) or they have camera setting issues. In general the 7D is great up to 800 ISO - above that things get trickier. You can get good images at ISO 1600 and even 3200 but you need the exposure spot on and to be careful with noise processing to retain detail while reducing noise. With care, especially if shooting RAW the 7D is quite usable at ISO 1600 and 3200. <br>

In terms of lenses I own the 85 f1.8, 70-200 f2.8 non IS and the 24-70 f2.8. All are great lenses but if budget is tight consider the following things. The 70-200 F2.8 is great for low light, sports and portraits but is very heavy for travelling so you may want to also consider the 70-200 f4 IS unless you know you need F2.8. I have both lenses but the F2.8 mainly comes out for sports while the F4IS gets carried a lot. If you do get the F2.8 lens then you may find you do not need the 85 F1.8 as the difference is small - my 85 is very soft at F1.8 so it is really an F2 lens. I think you do need a wider lens and may want to consider the Canon 17-55 f2.8. I have not used this lens but it is evidently very good. On my 7D I find I use my 16-35 f2.8 II a lot but do not use the 24-70 f2.8 very much. If you want a full frame lens than the 17-40 f4L is also an option. I cannot comment on the Tamron lenses as i have not used them.<br>

By the way you can buy Nikon lenses for the D300s (or even the Tamrons you list) from what I have seen the d300 is a very good camera.<br>

here are some crops of ice hockey shorts taken at high ISO in low light (typically EV7). these are extreme crops of about 1% of the image.</p>

 

<p>Thanks for the input. Great to know about your experiences with the Rebel series and 7D. Noise is really visible on the rebel at ISO 1600. Definitely. However how does the 7D performs when shooting in low ISO - are you able to notice noise?. say ISO 100? Obviously, ISO 800 and above one could say the noise levels are accepted and expectable.<br>

Any idea how does the 7D compares with the D300s on the field?</p>

<p> </p>

<p>No IS on the 70-200 f2.8 for concert photography is a big mistake.</p>

<p>I own the 7D and the 5D MkII. For your proposed uses, I'd look to the 5D2 as the superior camera. I use the 7D for birds and wildlife and the 5D2 for travel, scenics, people and everything else. The 5D2 with the 70-200mm f/2.8 would be a killer concert rig. Both cameras are good at high ISO, but the 5D2 is a stop or two more sensitive with lower noise.</p>

<p>Doesn't look like my crops posted so i will try again.</p>

<p>7D at ISO 1600 - 1% crop</p><div></div>

<p>1DIIN at ISO 3200 same lens</p><div></div>

<p>Finally the 5DII just for comparisson. remember these are extreme crops so if you multiply each dimension by about 10 you get the print size. I find that the 7D and 1DIIN produce similar results - the 1DIIN is less sensitive to slight exposure issues than the 7D but theextra pixels of the 7D improve IQ</p><div></div>

<p>the 5DII is actually a tighter crop than the other two probably about a 0.7% crop</p>

<p>I own a 400D and a 7D.</p>

<p>The 7D noise at 100 iso is a result of pixel-peeping, magnifying to 100%. On prints and full-screen views it's not a problem. At high iso there is noise, but I find the noise to be of much better quality than that of earlier cameras. The noise at 1600 iso on the 400D is much more clumpy, and on my old 300D it was very clumpy with major chroma distortion, unusable. The 7D at 1600 iso has almost filmlike grain that looks great in print.</p>

<p>So - is the 7D noise at 1600 iso acceptable? To me it is. However, those who want squeaky clean 1600 iso images are looking at buying a full-frame cam and spending a lot more money.</p>

<p>Tamron 17-50/2.8 should be one of your first buys. Great travel lens and general purpose lens. I like mine.</p>

<p>Also consider Sigma 30/1.4 for concert photography. Produces great colors and the bokeh is super silky smooth. However the edges are soft and as such it's not a general purpose lens - use it for low light selective focus shooting and you'll love it.</p>

<p>85/1.8 is also an excellent lens. Unlike the Sigma it is super sharp when stopped down. Classic portrait lens. Combine with the Tamron for a versatile travel kit. </p>

<p>Keep in mind, with the 70-200mm and a 5D MkII, for concert images you won't be doing a lot of cropping. For sports and wildlife there's lots of cropping involved and you may want to start with a crop-sensor like the 7D (that's what I do for bird photography). For concerts (assuming half-way decent seating or access), portraits, landscapes and travel, you'll crop mostly in the viewfinder and only touch up for compositional purposes, thus you'll take full advantage of the full-frame sensor. For wildlife and sports you'll often crop to get a frame-filling image of a small or distant subject, making the full-frame sensor a disadvantage.</p>

<p>Thanks Philip for the trouble of posting the photos. For that amount of magnification at ISO 3200, I believe that the noise is pretty acceptable for the 5DII.<br>

Today I have managed to get hold of the D300s and get the feel....and guess what...Awesome. The camera feels solid rocks, the controls accessible, the viewfinder crystal clear, the AF points. I was impressed. I could not check the test images on a PC. But with a 50mm Nikon lens on, the images looked super. Was wondering though, whether this brick will become to cumbersome for traveling and general use purposes.<br>

The controls were intuitively placed and menu great. Then checked out the D90 and got the same feel as my ex-450D. Toyish type of feeling. Pretty much decided on the 300s but still thinking whether it would be better to get d300s+50mm 1.8 or d90+kit+50mm+35mm. IMO, i could get the body and then build up the lenses gradually....<br>

@Arie - The tamron is infact on my list :)</p>

<p> </p>

<p>the 7D, 5DII and nikon 300 are all similar weight and size. feel fortunate you are not getting a 1 series!. DSLRs have kept getting bigger - the 5DII and 7D are the same size as the old 1V without the motor added.<br>

As to the crop the 7D with care and good exposure looks great printed 10x8 inch and even at 17x11 you have to examine it to see the noise and softness. I don't know how big your screen is but multiply by about 10 to get the print size you are looking at. With Ice hockey you are usually shooting at 1600 or 3200 ISO in most smaller arenas (typically 1/400 or faster and F2.8) and with care you can get big prints. I suspect the 300 S gives similar (possibly slightly lower) noise results to the 7D. I have compared the 300 with the 7D and the 7D is as good as the Nikon 300 at 3200 ISO Popular photography had the 7D at 2.4% noise at 3200 ISO and the D300S at 3.2%.</p>

<p>For concert, you may want to buy the 70-200 L IS, or a prime such as the 135 L. The widest lens you have on a crop would be the same as a 24mm on a full frame, you may want to consider going wider. I have 2 full frame cameras and unless you like to pixel peek don't fall into the full frame is so much better, it is not for most uses. The main place where the full frame excels is in the wide arena but the new lens that are being introduced for the crop cameras are removing most of the advantage there. About a year ago I purchased the 7D after much consideration over the 5DII and the 7D, I am very happy with my decision of going with the 7D it is an overall better camera, my opinion. Key word is overall. You may want to consider a wider lens for the 7D and maybe forgo the Tamron 28-75 for the time being as the 17-50 and 70-200 cover the most of the what you need 51- 69 is what you would be missing. The Tamron 28-75 is an excellent lens, especially as a walk around lends.</p>

<p>Appreciate everyone's feedback. Will re-post once I had made up my mind. </p>

<p>Thanks for all of your genius opinions. Really benefit a lot from your sharing.</p>