Can I trust salespeople re AB's versus other light kits?

hi all,

I've been doing a LOT of shopping around; on the web (this forum &

others) it seems that people are generally VERY satisfied with Alien

Bee & White Lightning quality, durability & service (for amateur &

semi-pro work.)

 

When I visited a local photo store, they were pushing the stuff that

they sell, including Elinchrom. I know Elinchrom is a good product

too. But the guy kept telling me that Alien Bees are "inferior" to

Elinchrom, that the service sucks, and that Paul C. Buff only does a

good job on fixes/returns sporadically. He also said that Alien

Bees are pretty bad at maintaining light levels consistently when

you dial down the power.

 

Is this trustworthy, or is the guy trying to make me nervous about

Buff products just so I buy from him in the store?

 

thanks in advance! I'm very new at this, obviously, and nervous

about such a big investment of 1500-2000$$. I'm trying to get as

much advice & insight as possible.

 

thanks!

Jennifer

<I>Is this trustworthy, or is the guy trying to make me nervous about Buff products just so I buy from him in the store?</I>

<br>

trustworthy - NO

<br>

to buy from him - YES

<br>

I have never heard of bad service from the Buff crew, just the opposite!

<P>

As for consistant light levels - never had a problem in 2 years<br>

of use, so as far as I'm concerned ... that's a crock as well.

<p>

I have an iron fast rule - as soon as a sales person starts to <br>

bad mouth a competitor, I'm out the door and looking for a new<br>

place to spend my money. A good sales person DOESN'T need to <br>

put down the competition to make a sale.

<p>

If you insist on going back there ask one simple question <br>

"How long have you owned and used the AB's or the WL's?"

<p>

Your instincts were correct Jennifer!!

I'd recommend the White Lightnings or the Alien Bees <br>

based on the power you need (WL's have more), <br>

amount of anticipated usage (heavier use weights to WL's) <br>

and money you are willing to spend. (AB's are less)<br>

I own (3) AB800's and am very happy with them. <br>

You might want a mix (WL is overkill for a hair light or background).

 

<P>

Good luck..Greg

I am not familiar with either product. But I am immediately suspicious of someone who claims the competitor's product "sucks."

Function, capabilities, company reputation, product reliability, etc. are all factors, as well as your own expectations. I hope you get good advice from Photo.net folks. I find this forum helpful.

 

JF

The Elinchrom is definetly superior to anything that Pual C. Buff has to offer and he is

not JUST trying to sell what he has in the store. Although that is part of his pitch. I have

only used 2 White Lightning lights ever. I used to own a 1200 WS one a few years ago, and

one of the local wedding photographers used to use one awhile ago. I only worked with

him a few times and that was years ago. All we ever used his for was backlighting a large

room, so anything is good for that. I used mine for awhile and it was alright. I DEFINETLY

noticed problems with it holding a true power level, don't recall if it was only at low levels.

If you are looking for something that works fine and will get you going then the AB's or

White Lightning will be fine. The Elinchrom will serve tou better in the long run.

Persoanlly if I was starting out I would get a Dyna-Lite system and then work my way up to

Profoto from there. My kit is filled with Dyna-Lite packs, and a dew Profoto packs. EVERY

pro I assist works with Profoto, many mix Profoto with Dyna-Lite and a few use Broncolor

and Elinchrom. Playboy shooters use Balcar LOL Not one pro I have worked with has ever

had AB's or WL's on set. Please feel free to send me an E-Mail if you have any specific

questions. johnny@johnnytergo.com<div></div>

You get what you pay for, salesmen can help you spend the money.

 

Cheers.

Lee,

You are happy that they replaced the unite, as I would be, but what about the fact that

that one of the units was DOA. Not a good thing!

There are issues here that've been cross connected, I currently have Pro-foto and White Lightning gear, and have had these systems for years, so I feel qualified on a couple of issues.

 

Alien Bees aren't fan cooled, they're not Heavy duty lighting units, they are good for what they're designed to do, that is get you in the door via cost effective lighting when every cent counts, they'll do a decent job and last for awhile if you don't use them on extended/punishing duty cycles.

 

Paul C. Buff also makes White lightning units which are fan cooled, made out of metal, and will take a certain amount of abuse/use over an extended duty cycle, my Ultra 1800 is over 15-16-17 yrs old, I've really don't remember how long ago I purchased the unit, it's so old, I've gotten carried away and used it for extended periods where it got so hot you could smell it, and I would simply let it cool down and it would go back to work like a champ, all this BEFORE I bought an aftermarket cooling fan a couple of years ago.

 

Financially challenged/broke photographers owe a debt to the heritage of Paul C. Buff, 25-30 yrs ago or whenever the hell it was, strobe gear was out of this world costwise, you paid through the nose, and if you didn't you were told to get lost until you did, politely of course. Paul C. Buff shows up with his White Lightning units, which the bigtime manufacturers of the day insisted could not work for the prices they were selling these units. They bought up his White Lightnings, took 'em apart, did everything they could to show that the early White Lightnings were piece of shit, they weren't, they were no frills entry level gear enabling a lot of us to get into studio flash for a price we could afford.

 

The White Lighning units are good sturdy fan cooled monoblocs, that paved the way for cost effective lighting, Profoto and Elinchrom are another class of gear, and for more money, you can get these packs w/a great deal of bells n whistles, you get a lot of quality. A Profoto packs undergoes an R-test before it's sold, where it's fired 360 times in the course of an hour and then checked to see how it held up.

 

My White Lightning monobloc has never malfuntioned, my Profoto system which has more versatility and can do more things than the WL has never malfunctioned, this is what you want, good gear for the best price you can get, that doesn't cost you after it goes off warranty, headache free in that you have 'peace of mind' that this gear won't quit while you doing a job, or some shoot that's special to you personally.

 

If you need to get going now no matter what, and don't have much money, go for the Alien Bees, you'll have to be gentle w/them or you'll burn them up, they'll work well for what they are, want heavy duty stuff that's still cost effective, get the White Lightnings, they'll last under heavy duress, AND long enough to be used in conjunction with later acquisitions.

 

Got enough to get high end for the most cost effective price? Now you can start talking Profoto, repairs are said to be expensive, I wouldn't know, I've never had mine repaired.

 

If you have up to 2K, by all means take your time, if you are commited to photography as a lifelong pursuit, get something that you'll grow into.

<I>When I visited a local photo store, they were pushing the stuff that they sell, including

Elinchrom.</I><P>What a surprise. Actually Elinchroms are better but not in a way many

peopel would notice.

Jennifer............being new to all of this, you are at a disadvantage when you approach a salesperson, they can sense this, and they will try to take control. The more you know, the more you research, the more knowledgeable you appear when you show up to talk to a saleman, the more the price goes down.

 

I would respectfully suggest that you research what's best for your situation in other ways, while developling a strategy for how you're going to get that gear for the best price from the salesman.

 

Salesman have 3 prices, 1)Sucker price..........they blurt this rediculous price out to see if you'll bite, even when they know that a lower street price which is hundreds or thousands less is what they'd take in a heartbeat for the gear you want.

 

2)Street price...........this is the real starting point for the negotiating, if the salesman knows you know this, he won't even bring up the sucker price.

 

3)The bottomline figure the salesman will take and not a penny less per his manager.....................self explanatory...........if the salesperson feels you know what you're talking about, he'll try to keep you from leaving without making a sale because he knows you can get it somewhere else.

 

Wait awhile, the gear isn't going anywhere, keep researching, become more knowledeable about what your want, check prices everywhere, promotions particularly, take your time, it will save you money.

Hello again Jennifer. It sounds like you and I are at about the same place in researching studio equipment. Not to downgrade WL or AB or Elinchrom, but I have been looking at a Hensel Light kit that B&H is selling for approx. $1200. I think it's called "Power Factory". 2 500ws lights, 2 stands, a case, a 24x36 softbox. They are fan-cooled, 300w modeling lights. In doing a search, those who have bought are pleased but say that accessories are not as easy to come by as they would like. Maybe someone else can speak up with experience or otherwise comment on this package and/or brand.

They also sell a 500J monolight (not in a kit in the US) that is supposedly designed for digital as well, also at B&H.

<p><i>Alien Bees aren't fan cooled</i>

 

<p>That is incorrect. When you turn them on, you can easily <i>hear</i> the fan (a quieter fan is actually a selling point for some higher-end lights). Don't just take my word for it; have a look at <a href="http://www.alienbees.com/b800.html">this description of a B800</a> which reads "the B800 contains a built-in cooling fan," or take one apart and look for yourself.

 

<p>I have some Alien Bees for my personal use, and I've used quite a few higher end lights as rentals over the years. What I can say from personal experience about the original question:

 

<p><i>But the guy kept telling me that Alien Bees are "inferior" to Elinchrom, that the service sucks, and that Paul C. Buff only does a good job on fixes/returns sporadically. He also said that Alien Bees are pretty bad at maintaining light levels consistently when you dial down the power.</i>

 

<p>is that the service at PC Buff does not suck by any standard I'm familiar with. I've enjoyed <i>far</i> better support and service from Buff's people than from companies that make megabuck lights.

 

<p>As for light consistency, the salesman's claim is both bogus and testable. Much of my business is technical photography, and photometry is done from my images; I can measure output consistency from my images very easily. Motivated by curiosity, I did so once; my AB's FWHM output variation was less than 0.01 stops, or in other words, the output is consistent to one-hundredths of a stop. This holds true even at low power. There are a number of variables that affect output consistency, including the 'cleanness' of the mains power (see below), so other peoples' mileage may vary.

 

<p>I've never measured photos taken under a higher-end light that is significantly better or worse than this. There are occasional anomalies in power output with the ABs, but I've seen that with Elinchrom lights too, so I don't think there is an edge here either way. It is possible the distribution curve is differently shaped, but it can't be significant.

 

<p>Elinchrom and similar higher-end models are better in many ways, but I'm not convinced output is one of them, except insofar as power varies. Perhaps T1 and T5 duration is faster too, I don't know; but if not, you will find most of the differences are usability and interface oriented. For example, if you want a logarithmic output adjustment, you don't get that on ABs, nor do you get high-end power conditioning built-in (which might be an issue in output if you don't have nice, polite AC coming out the walls), you don't get setting displays that can be read from a distance, you don't get really bright modeling lamps (though on the upside with ABs you don't get an expensive, hard-to-find modeling lamp bulb, either), and so forth.

 

<p>Using these higher-end lights is a real delight - there is a definite justification for them. I doubt anybody can tell the difference between a shot taken under them, versus one taken under an AB, just by looking.

 

<p><i>EVERY pro I assist works with Profoto, many mix Profoto with Dyna-Lite and a few use Broncolor and Elinchrom. Playboy shooters use Balcar LOL Not one pro I have worked with has ever had AB's or WL's on set.</i>

 

<p>It would be nice to live such a sheltered life. :-) Maybe I'm confused by the traditional distinction between set and studio, but a number of my colleagues use ABs or WLs for location lighting, principally because ABs are indestructible (they have that pound-nails, football-helmet material body), or at least cheap enough to consider a cost of doing business if they do get broken. I don't see many ABs in studios but I've run across a few.

 

<p>The bottom line, though, is I agree with Mr. Tergo - WL or AB will get you going and you will be happy with them unless your needs are very stringent - if you are going to work with these lights for several hours every day, or need to do a lot of shoots on very tight schedules, get something better. If that doesn't describe your use, you should feel at liberty to get something cheaper.

Maybe I'm confused by the traditional distinction between set and studio, but a number of my colleagues use ABs or WLs for location lighting, principally because ABs are indestructible (they have that pound-nails, football-helmet material body), or at least cheap enough to consider a cost of doing business if they do get broken.'

 

 

 

The fan-cooling issue notwithstanding, Alien Bees are entry level lights, they're made out of plastic and not in any sense of the word indestructable, they're not indestructable in how they're made, nor in how long they'll last under a long duty cycle, give them the same duress under a heavy duty cycle like you would a White Lightning unit and you'll burn them up. They're meant to get you started shooting under certain constraits(no long duty cycles @ full power) when your desire doesn't match your wallet, and they're great tools when considered under those circumstances, when your choice is to get at least something or turn to sketching the scene w/a pencil.

 

I disagree with the suggestion of buying gear that is so-called cheap enough that breaking it is a cost of business, and I don't think Jennifer, unless she corrects me, has money to throw away to replace broken gear, the idea is use something in the way that it should be used or get something else.

 

I've said this countless time before, and I'll say it again, get the best made gear you can get, gear you can grow into if you're going to be into this for the longterm, there's cost effective gear, and there's cheap, cheaply made gear, there's gear that will work under a heavy load and there's gear that won't, it's easy to say 'if it breaks, hell that's just the cost of business'...................that's not professional to me, you use the best you can get so it doesn't break/quit/malfunction in the middle of a shoot, and regardless of whether you're shooting for yourself or for a client, or out in the middle of nowhere shooting something that won't be there if you have to take your gear back to the shop and come back, YOU WANT GEAR YOU CAN DEPEND ON.

 

If it would serve you purposes get the AB, but use them the way they were intended to be use, which will cut down your chances of burning these lights up or causing them to malfunction, use as light duty lights, if you need lighting that will hold up under a heavy duty cycle then get lights that will do so. If you're a serious photographer/take your photography seriously, you don't want the distractions of malfunctions/gear quiting on you when you're after a moment that may never be duplicated again ever.

 

Busted gear is also a nightmare off warranty, Jennifer, I'll close w/saying this, do what you have to do to serve your situation because none of these folks will be around to help you pay your repairs or replace your lights regardless of whether it is simple the cost of doing business or not.

Will Crockette did some careful testing and found that some monolights vary in color temperature more than others as you change power.

 

As I recall Elinchromes were very stable.

 

But one way to handle this is to use two units of the same type, dial them to the same power, and use distance to set the ratio. You also need to use umbrella's or softboxes of the same brand, model, and age to get consistent results.

I have nothing but praise about Alien Bees service (ask for John). They've mailed me small lost parts, as well as their re-designed, early-version synch cords that would not trigger my Hasselblad consistently - free of charge, no delay.

 

AB is an excellent product (I use them extensively on-location), of course not as well-built as Elinchrom, but you get what you pay for.

http://www.lightingmagic.com/

<p><i>Alien Bees are entry level lights, they're made out of plastic and not in any sense of the word indestructable, they're not indestructable in how they're made,</i>

 

<p>Of course they are not indestructible in the literal sense of the word - nothing is. But ABs are physically tougher than many other brands, and when someone ran into my bag full of lights with a pickup truck, I was glad ABs were inside and not Broncolors. Nobody standing by or who has heard the story since has ever said "dude, that so sucks that you had cheap lights in that bag; you could have risked losing thousands of dollars more!" In fact, the lights survived.

 

<p>Once I was taking a lighting workshop, and one of the students got tangled with a stand, sending a head from one of the big pro houses fairly gently into the wall. It wasn't a hard impact, but it never worked again while I was there.

 

<p>Now I wouldn't suggest anyone use anecdotal evidence to judge the relative durability of lighting. But obviously, if the ABs can handle getting hit by a truck, they can't be called frail; especially when the alternative can't handle a routine studio mishap.

 

<p><i>nor in how long they'll last under a long duty cycle, give them the same duress under a heavy duty cycle like you would a White Lightning unit and you'll burn them up.</i>

 

<p>That sounds like uninformed speculation - you didn't know ABs had cooling fans, and I doubt you know anything about their duty tolerance. I used two of my ABs at full power to shoot a time lapse of a crystal growing - one flash every three seconds, for something like 38 hours straight, praise be to computer controlled shooting for that. I didn't notice a problem. I even left the modeling lights on full and cycle; those Bees should have been melting if they weren't up to a heavy duty cycle.

 

<p>That said, if this weren't a personal project, I would have preferred using some other light. Using any light on a tough duty cycle is bound to provoke failure, some more than others. But ABs do not start smoking when used at full power, even after 45,600 flashes.

 

<p><i>I disagree with the suggestion of buying gear that is so-called cheap enough that breaking it is a cost of business,</i>

 

<p>I'd guess you aren't in the pro world, then. I can't say how many times I've seen photographers build a makeshift diffuser, flag, reflector, or whatnot, rather than use the "best made gear you can get." And for that matter I've seen some raunchy lights used from time to time, by some pretty skilled people.

 

<p><i>and I don't think Jennifer, unless she corrects me, has money to throw away to replace broken gear,</i>

 

<p>If she's tough on her gear, that would be a factor to consider in the purchase. She can throw away money on gear that is easily broken, or throw away money on presumably more expensive gear that is more durable. There's no real evidence here about which is which.

 

<p><i>it's easy to say 'if it breaks, hell that's just the cost of business'...................that's not professional to me, you use the best you can get so it doesn't break/quit/malfunction in the middle of a shoot</i>

 

<p>I'll eagerly up this ante - I've never heard a more unprofessional suggestion in my life. Every <i>professional</i> knows that you cannot rely on <i>any</i> equipment - no matter how high quality, no matter how expensive - to perform flawlessly throughout a shoot. All professional photographers know that you need backup. It is naive to think that the path to reliability is to have the best available gear.

 

<p>In any case, those photographers who have adopted cheap lighting for locations have done so because of the dangers the lights face <i>in transit</i>, not during the shoot. Cheap lights may prevent you risking damage to your studio bread-and-butter lights that you are counting on having for the next month's worth of work; they may prevent you having to make a large insurance claim when they don't survive rattling around in the back of a pickup truck; they may interfere with your ability to tell a great story about the time that Coast to Coast Airways destroyed ten grand worth of lights on a single flight. These are the reason some photographers have adopted cheaper location lighting, and from the sounds of it with considerable success, since I don't hear about these lights dying at the drop of a hat.

 

<p>But one thing cheap lights don't do is <b>prevent you having a backup</b>.

 

<p>Now, all that said, I'm not particularly married to my ABs. I have access to enough higher-end lights that I think I have a pretty good idea of what I would <i>like</i> to be using in an ideal world. I'm not recommending any light to Jennifer, but I think some perspective would be helpful:

 

<ul>

<li>If you are going to be shooting constantly with your lights - six hours a day, five days a week, for months - get something higher end than ABs. If nothing else, you will appreciate the user interface improvements.

<li>If you are a hobbyist, if you are a professional but your studio lighting needs will be infrequent, or if you are purchasing lights for special needs such as locations or hostile environments, you should feel at liberty to get ABs, because it is objectively true that their output is consistent, and nobody with actual experience that I know of has said anything other than that their service is excellent - i.e., your salesman was conning you.

<li>If you have other motives, such as you want sexy gear, by all means buy from an outfit with a nice glossy catalog that isn't colored green.

</ul>

 

<p>But what isn't helpful is disparaging ABs as being cheaper than they are, or dismissing high-end lights as being unjustifiably expensive. They all have their place and it is important to get a good match of equipment to purpose.<div></div>

I had a decent budget for lighting. Did my research, talked to commercial, wedding and portrait professionals who use all the brands I was interested in, including AB, WL, Elinchrome, etc. I had about a $2500 budget to get started. I ended up with a fairly complete kit built around AB800 units.

 

All I've heard about White Lightning and ABs are good things. I've only heard good things about Paul C. Buff's customer service. I've never experienced any variations in light output (my meter is fairly sensitive), no failures, and I do use them VERY frequnetly. They travel with me, and get used in the studio. They get banged around, popped incessantly, and I've not experienced any problems at all. I've had them going for eight hours straight at venues, only to do the same thing the next day and the day after that.

 

I agree that there are minor differences in build quality, but there's not much of a difference in reliability or features in lights that will fit your budget. If you can swing it, go for the White Lightnings - they have a more powerful modeling light. Otherwise, the ABs are perfect for traveling.

 

I am so happy I didn't spend the money on Elinchrome lights. The extra money went into other equipement I needed.

 

By the way, I use my ABs on location for everything from commercial and magazine shoots to weddings and portraiture.

If you're going to quote me, don't quote me out of context..........you brought up the suggestion that the units are indestructible which you're quick to qualify now, you should've qualified your blanket generalization when you first made IT.

 

I don't believe for a second that you ran an AB THIRTY EIGHT HOURS STRAIGHT @ full power firing every three seconds, that sounds like total bullshit, I defy you to show that to me, do this in front of me, and I'll pay you the cost of the, lights, put your money where mouth is, if this class of lights could withstand that kind of punishment AND on a consistent basis, nobody would even consider buying anything else.

 

Quit putting words in my mouth, you bring up something about hot having a back-up and then you make the bullshit assumption that because I'm giving advice about an initial purchase that somehow that means I don't think a professional needs to have back-up, READ WHAT I DID SAY INSTEAD OF MAKING ASSININE ASSUMPTIONS about what I DIDN'T SAY but it doesn't look like you know how to read.

 

I challenge you to bring your AB over to me and fire them for 38 hours @ full power, once every three seconds, PURE BULLSHIT, now prove me wrong, do it in front of me or ANYBODY, WITHOUT BURNING THEM UP AND I'LL PAY YOU THE COST OF THE LIGHT, because I don't believe you.

 

I'll run over you AB with my truck and bet you the cost of my truck that I'll smash them flatter than a pancake, you can have that bet too ANYTIME YOU WANT IT.

 

You make all these claims now back them up with something more than flapping your mouth.

Firing a strobe @ full power once every three seconds for thirty eight hours means 20 flashes a minute, 1,200 an hour, and after 38 hours straight that means 45,600 consecutive flashes without fail, I would love to see you attempt to back this up, and I'll pay to see it.

good lord, someone got angry. i feel some "yo momma" moments coming on. its like im playing halo 2 right now, but im not...im on a photography forum, talking about lighting equipment...weird.

 

but back to you jennifer. my school's studio had some old WL and AB units in there. now i must be honest and say that many a person used them that didnt have a clue what they were doing and/or didnt give a crap about treating them right. they held up pretty well as far as i could tell. i dont recall any problems with them and even if i could, i wouldnt fault Buff's company bc the newest one was several years old and some of my fellow students could tear up a steel ball.

 

ive never heard of power variations, but ive heard of color temp variations that were supposedly bad. ive seen one test where its variation wasnt vastly diffrent than some other big name units. im colorblind and work mostly in black and white so i cant comment on that from personal experience.

 

i was reading on another forum a thread about WL's. i wish i could find it but their search feature sucks. there was an interesting thought in that thread that i wish i could take credit for but cant. i wish i could give credit where its due, as well, but cant find it. anyway, a guy was joking that part of the reason that WL's and AB's werent taken more seriously by pros was bc they come in wild n crazy colors and have redneck-ish names. he went on to say that they needed to get some well known design firm to do design the outside of the units in a clean and modern way and finish them in brushed aluminum or black, then give them some fancy name and triple the current asking price. he'd sell a ton. i cant help but agree.

 

the only thing that bugs me about my WL purchase is that ill have to go outside of Buffs company if i want a ringflash, which would be pretty pricey.

 

its a fact of life that things will fail sooner or later, but what made me choose WL was the fact that it was cheap enough to have a spare unit or 2 with me at all times, so that i can keep working. if id have gotten something more expensive and had an accident, then id have had to stop right then and there. that combined with Buff's service reputation sold me.

 

i wonder if we should have a thread where people post pics and we have to guess not only what type of lighting equipment was used, but also what brand.

 

personally, i wouldnt trust that particular sales guy, but i would trust elinchrom and personally, i trust Paul C Buff's companies esp white lightning.

 

hope this helps.

 

steven

Wow....thanks SO much, everyone, for your detailed responses! I feel fortunate to have found this forum. :) Since I'll be using the lights for "light" duty work, compared to some of you pros out there, I think the Alien Bees would be a great starting point for me. I do plan to start a studio for myself for portraits, but from what I've heard here, the AB's would be a good starter kit. I can always add more lights later as I (hopefully) start making money doing this. I agree with everyone who said that they've never heard a neg. comment about AB's. I got the "snakey slimey" sense from that salesperson - the one that tells you a con is in progress.

 

thanks again to all. I truly appreciate the time & energy of your responses!

 

Jennifer

Jonathan,

I'm afraid I may be one of those people who have fallen for "sucker prices" before! I never even knew you could barter or bargain in a photography store. I just assumed the sticker price was the only price.

 

Can you give me a few tips on how to start a bartering conversation? For example, if I wanted to get the $1200 Elinchrom kit from the local photo store, is there anything I could say/do to get that price lower?

 

I agree that coming prepared with info could help. If the price is lower on B/H, for instance, would that allow me to get the price lower from the store?

 

Thanks!

Jennifer

Jeff,

thanks for your responses. I love the picture of the geisha woman! I'm going to guess you used AB's, since you posed the question?

 

In general, how long does it take to set up the lights & adjust them to get the lighting "perfect" for that kind of shot? As a beginner, should I expect to take an hour? Are you good enough now that it's a 5-minute job?

 

thanks!

Jennifer

Jennifer..................Several people were nice enough to show/explain to me some important concepts about phtogoraph/lighting concepts, some would sit and talk as long as I had questions, that had a humbling effect on me, the fact that these people freely gave of their time and expertise.

 

Any of us here, are only really here to pass on what we know, I feel good about talking about experiences I've already been through and maybe helping someone who hasn't been through those experiences maybe having an easier time in making some important choices early on in your photographic journey. I started out w/a Nikon FTN and Vivitar Ser. I and photographing in MacArthur Park in the '70s, I shot cassette rolled movie film 5254, and that's all I had money for, 1 camera, 1 lens, and film.

 

I know what you're going through, I've gone through it, we all have/will, it's all part of the learning curve, the part of the learning curve about gear I feel qualified to talk about, I'm 56 and have been buying/selling/using camera and lighting gear for approx. 36yrs now, and can look back on my choices from that perspective. As a young man particularly when I was starting out, my proiorities were school, but I knew then I would love photography for life.

 

I've learned this one fact, there's nothing more expensive than cheap equipment, as a young man I've bought, had it break/breakdown/malfunction, I've had that gear mess up shots, I've wasted the gas and time/time on the phone discussing warranties/arguing w/representatives about honoring their repair warranties, and as I matured as a person/grew as a photographer, I began to wait/to see the big picture a little better.

 

Like some of the used cars I bought when I was in school, some gear is ridiculousy cheap, they do you no good when both are in the shop, which results in time lost because when in the shop you can't use them, and if you have an assignment, you have to use something else, and if you don't have an money, and if you're a student that doesn't have rich parents you have to choose between fixing your gear and eating or the rent, I've been through that.

 

Bottom line, when you're starting out getting into this, is to research, consider your goals, and something else that is admittedly difficult to consider at the beginning and that is the fact that you will grow and expand in your photography, there is gear you can use now, there's also gear that may not be the same gear that you'll want/need for different reason/different things 5 yrs from now, if you can somehow get gear that satisfies your needs now, AND SAY 5 YRS FROM NOW, YOU'LL SAVE TIME AND MONEY.

 

I know it's a balancing act, but it's the idea of taking a little more time with your purchases/decisions in acquisitions of gear, and seeing if you can get a little bang for your buck, w/gear that you will be using not only now but 5/10 from now., the BOTTOM LINE for me is that I buy only gear because of how it performs off warranty.

 

I was all Rollei 6006 for years, I had two of 'em, one and a back-up , they both malfunctioned several times when shooting a camera, I had to go through the gyrations of using yet a third camera to finish the shoot, I got rid of the Rolleis and acqired mechinical Mamiya 6x7 Pro-SDs, I changed a whole system that was draining me financially in terms of paying for $500 circuit boards and a fortune spent for other things that would go wrong with this cameras and the time they spent in the shop, and that's the worse thing about having gear in the shop, not just the money, BUT THE TIME. I switched to a simpler system in MF and never looked back, that was about ten years ago, I've never had a malfunction in the middle of a portait session with any of my three Pro-SDs.

 

If I understand your sitiuation correctly, you have approx. $2000 for these acquisitions, if you take the time, you can stretch that money to get not only what you need but also enough gear to possibly fulfill your needs 5yrs from now, and while nobody has a crystal ball, if you succeed in doing this, you'll have BOUGHT ONCE TO SERVE NOW AND IN THE FUTURE, this maybe not always possible, but this is what you consider.

 

'Jonathan, I'm afraid I may be one of those people who have fallen for "sucker prices" before! I never even knew you could barter or bargain in a photography store. I just assumed the sticker price was the only price.'....................................Don't feel bad, I've learned all this the hard way too, once for life is for sure, everything is negotiable, and even though salespeople put up a good front, they maybe more strapped for funds than you are, what saves you money is the fact that if they don't move equipment, THEY DON'T EAT.

 

When on the phone, never ask the price of something, if you do, they will tell you, always ask..................'What's your best price on this'.....................................also after doing research on prices from other vendors/middlemen, find the lowest prices, and when on the phones ask, 'Midwest sells this for xxx, can you beat that price?'.........................I've gotten gear selling for $1000, by calling up and stating,..........'I'm not paying $1,000, I don't have it anyway, what will you take to move this thing?,.........and 'dickered' back and forth with the end result is that piece of gear cost $600.00.

 

There are promotions, you may have to make a lot of calls, but you have to call up with confidence, and with the full knowledge that you have the money, they are the ones that would to have it. Salespeople know when you are experienced at the process, NOBODY I KNOW PAYS THE LIST PRICE FOR PROFOTO for instance, there are ALWAYS promotions, the list price for PROFOTO is so steep, the stores know this and will almost always give you a deal/discount on the quiet.

 

Many big name mailorder houses back east(UNOWHO), will take a Profoto pack out of a box, repack it, and sell it as a demo, to move merchandise, because it doens't make them any money sitting in a warehouse gathering dust. You call them up and ask, and depending on who you get on the phone, they may even tell you it's a demo that's never been used WITH the warranty intact.

 

My advice is to let this all sink in, get on the phone with some folks discuss some prices, DON'T COMMIT TO ANYTHING, find out the prices, tell them if there is further interest you'll get back to them. Start to feel comfortable w/the process of negotiation, BUT WAIT, you get better at it, you'll be more knowledgeable at the end of the process and you'll have bought MORE gear for your money.

 

OMT, Paul C Buff sells his stuff at rock bottom prices, this stuff you get for his prices, they've stayed about the same for years, but with the other folks, you can negotiate, GOOD LUCK.

 

 

One thing about negotiating is the saleman doens't want you to know how desperate he/she is to move a piece of gear, you don't want to let him/her know how much you'd love to get that piece of gear, the thing salesfolks respond to most is confidence/you know the price.

 

I've stood in Samy's and went back and forth with a guy, I just decided I wasn't giving in to his last price, I just started looking disinterested and pulled out my car keys, in an instant he knocked down his price a nice chunk of change and we made the deal.