Buying 1st 4x5 - For Field Use - Thinking Sinar F1

I've been using large format for a couple of months now, using a borrowed Toyo

45CX and I'm ready to buy my own LF camera. I've been looking for a used

Sinar F1 or F2 in good condition w/ a 90 and 210 lens to start. I'd like to

state my needs and see if anyone has suggestions on a camera that they think

would better suit my purpose, or if they think this is a good choice.

 

I'm a photo student, and I'm looking for a camera that I can learn from and

never feel limited by. I shoot almost entirely in the field, but have used

the studio in the past and plan on using it more in the near future. I do

mainly architectural shots and landscapes. I will need to take this camera

hiking, to the beach, on trips, etc. So far I've been breaking the toyo down

and stuffing it in a MF camera bag, but I hope to use a backpack in the

future. But 95% of the time I'm parking my car and walking with the camera in

the city, this is why I ruled out technical cameras. I've always found the

Toyo a bit flimsy, I hate wondering if my focus has been disrupted while

sliding in negative carriers, so I'd really like a sturdier camera. Plus my

exposures often are several minutes long, I like to shoot at night a lot and

with the lens stopped completely down.

 

Why I've chosen the Sinar F1/F2 so far: A teacher recommended it to me, they

only weigh 8 pounds, there not huge, their are always some on ebay, and I

figure it's a good way to get a qualit built camera, without paying an arm and

a leg for a more expensive and especially heavier sinar. I originally had my

heart set on a technical camera, but I realized I won't be needing to climb

Mt. Everest too many times while in school so I should probably get a camera

that is more full featured and will never have restrictive movements, since

much of my work thus far has required all the movements my lens could allow.

 

Lenses: I have been using a Rodenstock 150mm, I'm pretty sure it was a

Sironar-N (coverage circle=216), but It's no longer in my possesion. I found

myself limited by this lens on a daily basis. I would like something with

considerably more coverage. I can't afford to buy three lenses right away,

and I've frequently had the need for both a longer and a shorter lens (usually

shorter), so I think I would start with a 90mm and a 210mm. For the 90 I've

been looking at Super-Angulons, for a little over $500 on ebay from what I've

seen so far. This doesn't offer much more coverage (circle=235) than the

rodenstock but I don't know if I'd spend much more 1200 on ebay for a Super

Angulon XL or similar lens. For the 210 I'm not sure.

 

Other: I don't know much about wooden field cameras, other than there not as

sturdy as technical cameras. I think they offer more movements but still less

than monorails? But again in the city I've never felt like my mobility was

limited by a monorail camera, and thats where I usually shoot. Also I'm

definatly leaning towards a high quality, used, monorail 4x5 under 10 pounds.

I'd love to have a camera, lens, proper bellows, and film holders for under

$1400, but I can pay a little more or less if I find something thats right for

me.

 

Thanks for the advice and sorry about the long post.

I hiked with a Sinar on one long trip and that was it. Too heavy and bulky for me for hiking. Also the setup time is something to consider. If you think about stopping, unloading, assembling the camera for 2 shots, break it down, repack it, and off you go to the next spot. Do that for 150 slides and you will see what I mean.

 

Compare to my field camera. I now have a Cf tripod, that i can mount the camers to and hang the whole works on my backpack with everything attached including my main lens inside the camera. With this rig, I just stop, take off the tripod/camera from the outside of my pack, unfold, setup and shoot. Its about a million times more convenient, smaller and lighter too.

 

Dont get me wrong because a really like the F1/F2, but for me it was too much to hike with. Great for shooting out of a car though, where you can keep it mounted on a tripod.

 

I ended up going back to a folder. I was after metal, light, stiff and cheapish so I ended up with a super speed graphic. No back movements, but it has plenty enough movements for landscape photography. Full front movements, true rotating back, rangefinder, and tough as nails.

 

Really IMO you need both a Sinar type and a field camera.<div></div>

I had the same decision to make a couple of months ago. I went the route of buying a technical camera and a monorail. When shooting buildings I can use the monorail as the carry from the car isn't that much trouble. For landscape I don't need the same movements so I carry the technical camera. I managed to get hold of an MPP Microtechnical for under $100 and rebuilt it just for carrying around (no rangefinder, extra tripod mount, extra detents for different focal lengths) and this camera has full front movements and rear swing and tilt. For the monorail I managed to pick up a Horseman LX for around $200. Best of both worlds and if you get a lensboard adaptor made you don't have to worry about remounting lenses.

I got into LF about 5 years ago and started out with a Sinar F1 - convinced that it would be the perfect camera. I very much liked the movements and sturdiness of the camera, but after 6 months I just had it! It was too bulky and heavy to carry around. I wnet on a quest to find a field camera that would be lighter but still offer reasonable movements. After 5 more cameras I settled on the Canham DLC45 and couldn't be happier - it offers the movements of a monorail but is very light and compact. If you can swing it financially it might just be what you are looking for. I also got a Shen-Hao as a back-up and I think it is the best value out there right now. It offers a lot of movements, is relatively light, very stable for a wooden field camera and it is a bargain ($600 brand new). I would encourage you to look into the Shen - call Midwest Photo Exchange and talk to Jeff and ask hime if he could send you one to try out - you can always return it (btw they are great people and you should check them out for used lenses too - often you will get a better deal there than on eBay).

Lenses: Most 150mm lenses will have a limited coverage (unless you are willing to spend big bucks). The 90mm will have even less - considerably less, the 210 should give you plenty of room for movements. Look into the Caltar-line of lenses - they are re-branded Rodenstock (Schneider for the older ones) lenses originally sold by Calumet Photo. Identical specs, but you can save $100-150 by buying the Caltar line - they show up on eBay all the time. There is really no difference in the various 210 lenses out there as long as you buy a relatively recent one that is multi-coated. There are 4 manufacturers that offer modern lenses, Rodenstock, Schneider, Nikon and Fuji - a lens from anyone of these will be a high quality piece of glass - you really cannot go wrong. On the 90 end you might want to look at the Rodenstock f6.8 - it'll give you more brightness on the groundglass - which could make a big difference. Wide angle lenses always project a hot-spot on the GG and you'll have to move your head to see the entire scene - the bigger aperture actually does make a big difference.

Good Luck with your choice - keep in mind that in all likelyhood this will not be the last LF camera you buy - I don;t know anybody who hit the target on the first try - it is a very personal decision and you will only know if you made the right choice after you had a chance to really use the camera in the field. The good news is that LF cameras and equipment are very stable in their pricing - so you won't lose a lot of money (if any) if you decide to sell it later on.

While 150 mm exactly meets the definition of normal for 4x5, matching the length of the format diagonal, 210 mm is also a classic choice, probably the reason that you are considering it -- to have plenty of coverage. Another possibility is 180 mm, which you might consider if you liked the view of the 150 mm. This is my normal focal length. I have never run out of coverage with it. As Juergen says, for 90 mm and a normal focal length plasmat lenses, any modern lens from the big four will be excellent. (Really modern would be a multicoated lens, though this is less important for LF lenses.) Some particular plasmat versions have more coverage (e.g., Apo-Sironar-S has more than Apo-Sironar-N), but for 180 mm and longer for 4x5, this doesn't matter much. The recent made-by-Rodenstock Caltars have the series designation "II-N".

I had a Sinar F (basically an older F1) at some point. I found it too wobbly and too

much plastic. With a Sinar and 90mm you absolutely have to use a bag bellows.

Carrying the bag bellows and having to change the bellows for every other shot is a pain.

The camera cannot really be collapsed to a small

package. I now have a Sinar Norma that I am absolutely in love with.

The camera is mostly compatible with the newer Sinars (bellows, back, lensboards, rail).

It is MUCH better build and much sturdier than the F1/F2. It doesn't have yaw free

movements but I don't think that this is a big problem. It is more compact than the F1,

because of the different tripod mount and the different standarts. For carrying it around

I slide the two standarts on a short extension rail.

Still, I have to carry the bag bellows and set up time is not very short.

If had unlimited funds I would go for one of the non-folding Ebonies.

The 90mm lens to have is the f8 Nikkor. Sharp, small, light and still 236mm image circle.

I don't think that you can go wrong with any of the modern 180mm or 210mm lenses.

I am personally a big fan of normal lenses. I would go for 150mm APO-Sironar S or APO-

Symmar L. These have a bit more of coverage than the rest of the pack (also Fuji could

have a 150mm normal lens with above average coverage).

On the backpacking issue... check out my prior thread on the topic:

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00GKrn&tag=

 

On lenses, I'll ditto the recommendation for a Nikkor SW 90mm f/8. Great lens, sharp, and lots of coverage. For the 210mm, any of the big 4 would be fine, but I'd pick a Schneider APO Symmar as the top of the heap. For a mid range lens, the Rodenstock Sironar S is the lens to get, but it's ~$650 even used. A used Fuji W 135mm f/5.6 or 150mm (later multicoated versions) are both very good, and under $300.

 

Here's a couple links to help with choosing lenses:

 

http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/future.htm

 

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/LF4x5in.html

 

http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/testing.html

 

Hope this helps!

 

Sheldon

Josh,

 

They call them "Field Cameras" for a reason. The difference between a 5lb camera and a

9lb camera is huge when you are backpacking.

 

A Linhof Tech is a BOAT ANCHOR. I borrowed one from a friend when I was thinking

about getting one and I quickly changed my mind.

I actually have a Sinar F1 that is mint condition with a bag bellows and other accessories. I

am selling it because I need a 5x7 camera. Email me if you are interested. I have hiked with

the F1, it is easy to setup but I will only shoot maybe 10 shots a day max. But isn't that what

you do with large format anyway? I am a fairly strong person so the difference between a 6

pound and an 8.5 pound camera isn't an issue. Come to think of it, I don't think it should be

for anyone. It fits in my backpack nicely. But don't listen to me I am biased.

 

Darcy

In the many years I've participated here I've seen lots of people inquire about switching from a monorail to a field camera for use in the field. The reasons are almost always the same - for field work the monorail was too cumbersome, too heavy, too time-consuming to set up and take down all the time, etc. In that time I remember almost no one asking about switching from a field camera to a monorail for use in the field. That should tell you something.

 

You mention "field" cameras and "technical" cameras. The distinction between field and technical cameras has become so blurred as to be non-existent. A technical camera is a press camera with back movements. But since almost no one uses a "press" camera for "press" work, and since both "technical" cameras and "press" cameras are used primarily as large format field cameras today, the distinction is fairly meaningless unless the rangefinder that is on most "technical" cameras is important to you.

 

The distinction between "field" cameras and "monorails" is also not necessarily as important as it used to be. A "field" camera used to mean a small, light wood camera with a short bellows and limited movements, often just front rise and fall and back tilt and swing. But as "field" cameras such as the Zone VI, Wisner, Canham, et al came along, with their increased weight and size, long bellows, and extensive movements, some of the characteristics that formerly defined a "field" camera ceased to exist. Then there are hybrid monorail cameras such as the Linhof Technikardan and the Toyo VX125 and cameras that are true monorails but that are also small and light and intended to be used in the field (e.g. the Toho) and "field" cameras that aren't made out of wood (e.g. the Walker) and technical cameras that are made out of metal and used as "field" cameras (e.g. Linhof Technikas), and so on and on.

 

All of this is by way of leading up to a suggestion that you not think too much in terms of "field," "monorail," and "technical" cameras and instead think about what you need and what the camera offers. In particular, you might investigate some of the modern "field" cameras such as Tachihara, Shen-Hao, Canham, Wisner, or Zone VI. You might find that one of those cameras fits your landscape and architectural needs as well as a monorail but without the inconveniences of a monorail. I used a Tachihara for about four years for the same type work you are planning and it worked fine for those uses. It had ample movements for those types of work, had an adquate bellows extension (13"), and was extremely easy to use. Or if you don't like wood cameras for some reason there's used Linhof Technikas or even the Walker though you don't see many used Walkers for sale. There's lots of "field/technical" cameras to choose from and I suspect that one of them will suit your needs for field work as well as the Sinar without the inconveniences of the Sinar.

I seem to be swimming against the tide here, but I successfully carried a sinar F2 in the field with a back pack for years. They can fold down very compactly. The camera itself is not that heavy compared to the versatility of movements you get. Where the weight starts to build up is when you have enough lenses that one carries in addition to the camera, a bag and a pleated bellows and an extension rail for longer lenses or close up work with the 210. In addition when the camera gains mass and bulk, you correspondingly need to use an appropriately proportioned tripod.

 

Learning to use view camera movements are much simpler with a monorail than with any field camera whether wood or metal and I recommend it highly.

 

That said, I changed out my system 5 years ago to a Linhof MT 2000. This camera accomodates my 65 through 300 mm lenses. It is not nearly as flexible as the Sinar but with the same compliment of lenses, I shed nearly 10 pounds between not having extra rails and bellows and being able to use a lighter tripod. My 60 year old back appreciates the change, I would guess you are probably a decade or two from that consideration. (I would definitely rule out a "P")

 

Two other things to consider; if you carry two or more lenses, a Linhof Teknica lens board adapter will save huge amounts of weight compared to a Sinar board for each lens. Secondly, you will eventually get about what you paid for the Sinar if you decide to switch later and resell it.

I started out with a Sinar F2 and found it to bulky and heavy. It never seemed to fit neatly

in

the backpack and difficult to fit other things around it. In the end I didn't do much

landscape

work.

I bought the Toho six months ago and find it perfect. I'm now shooting lots of

landscapes which is what I really want to do . I think it is a great backpacking camera.

However the Sinar

was not a waist. I will

take it in the field for pre planned shots when I know I need the extra movements and it is

great indoors, eg architecture, still life, so on.

I think you're on the right track. No field camera will satisfy your architectural needs and

you only want ONE camera. As such, your intructor's recommendation of the Sinar makes

sense. One of the only other cameras I'm aware of that makes more sense is the Arca

Swiss Field (it's a monorail, but they call if field, because it's small)...it's about 6 lbs.

They're expensive new and I don't know if a used one will be out of your price range. Also

note that they recently downsized the rear standard in the past year, making the new one

somewhat more desirable. They also make the Misura, but I doubt you'll find any used

since it is has only been on the market for a year or two. Toho makes an extremely

lightweight monorail for field use. I don't know whether or not it's stable enough for your

needs and I've never used one, but it's worth checking out.

If you can come up with the cash, I would go for an arca swiss. They are small monorails,

but very sturdy and with good movements. I have the 8x10 version and use similarly to

how you describe shooting. I wouldn't trade it for anything. The discovery model is a

lower-cost camera that still has most of the features of the more expensive models, and

the sometimes show up on ebay. Good luck!

I think an Arca Swiss F-Line would be my dream 4x5 camera, but there out of my price range. I'm seeing a lot of people trying to pursuade me to go to a foldable camera, but when I'm not willing to sacrafice rear focus adjustments and rear movements for that. I do want to try to backpack with this thing and from what I've read people some people manage to squeeze an F1 into a backpack, but it's a tight fit or the camera must be dismantled. Let me make clear that I can deal with that. Most of my shooting is close enough to the car where I can carry a cumbersome case and tripod and won't be inhibited by them. The case I was borrowing from my school was like an ice chest. I wish that I had kept better records of the movements I used with every shot I took on the borrowed camera, so I'd know how much rear movements I'll need in a camera. But I do know that the 150mm Rodenstock lens, with a 214mm coverage circle was rarely enough coverage. The lenses I buy will probably have upwards of 350mm (the 210 lens) and I intend to use it. Plus I needed to use the entire 18 inches of monorail a few time for macro shots, and I like that with the Sinar it will only cost me an 80 dollar extension rail on ebay to be able to do that. So that being said is there any folding field camera suggestions that meet those needs?

Josh, many field cameras have geared rear focusing. On many field cameras the front standard is slide into approximate position and focusing is done with the rear. Some field cameras don't have a full complement of movements on the rear, but you don't really need all the movements on both the front and back, e.g., shift on just one end is normally sufficient.

 

The Sinar F1 will certainly do the photographic job. Its a matter of convenience in moving about with the camera vs what features you are willing to give up OR the increase in price that you are willing to pay to have those features in a more portable camera. There are folding cameras that are monorail like, such as the Technikardan, but they don't meet your budget. So for you, maybe the Sinar F1 is a good choice. If you change your mind, you can always sell it and buy a different camera (and transfer your lenses to that camera).

 

Also, you may be overestimating your coverage needs. I use movements fairly boldly, but with my normal lens (180 mm), I've never used more than 53 mm of front rise. See http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Amlt

"I'm seeing a lot of people trying to pursuade me to go to a foldable camera, but when I'm not willing to sacrafice rear focus adjustments and rear movements for that"

 

I don't think anyone is trying to "pursuade" you to do anything. None of us has the slightest personal interest in what camera you buy. But you asked for advice and the advice of most has been to get a field camera. Apart from that, your understanding that "foldable" cameras don't have rear focusing and/or rear movements is incorrect. Virtually all foldable cameras used in the field have rear movements. The only ones I can think of offhand that don't are the old press cameras and the Toyo CF. Even the old Koronas, Kodaks, etc. had rear movements. Rear focus is perhaps a little less common but many field cameras have that as well - for example, my Deardorff, Agfa Ansco, and Ebony cameras all had rear focus.

I hiked with a Sinar on one long trip and that was it. Too heavy and bulky for me for hiking. Also the setup time is something to consider. If you think about stopping, unloading, assembling the camera for 2 shots, break it down, repack it, and off you go to the next spot. Do that for 150 slides and you will see what I mean.

 

Compare to my field camera. I now have a Cf tripod, that i can mount the camers to and hang the whole works on my backpack with everything attached including my main lens inside the camera. With this rig, I just stop, take off the tripod/camera from the outside of my pack, unfold, setup and shoot. Its about a million times more convenient, smaller and lighter too.

 

Dont get me wrong because a really like the F1/F2, but for me it was too much to hike with. Great for shooting out of a car though, where you can keep it mounted on a tripod.

 

I ended up going back to a folder. I was after metal, light, stiff and cheapish so I ended up with a super speed graphic. No back movements, but it has plenty enough movements for landscape photography. Full front movements, true rotating back, rangefinder, and tough as nails.

 

Really IMO you need both a Sinar type and a field camera.<div>[ATTACH=full]140353[/ATTACH]</div>

The prism that you are using on the Super Speed Graphic is it from Linhof?

The prism that you are using on the Super Speed Graphic is it from Linhof?

The member was last seen June 2016. If you click on the member name, you can see if they are still active. Generally you will get a better outcome starting a new thread instead of reviving an ancient one.

The prism that you are using on the Super Speed Graphic is it from Linhof?

Linhof, Sinar, Wista, etc. don’t make prism finders. They offer mirror finders. That means that the viewing image is upright but reversed right to left.

Prism finders are on mf and smaller cameras. They show an upright image that is not reversed right to left.

The member was last seen June 2016. If you click on the member name, you can see if they are still active. Generally you will get a better outcome starting a new thread instead of reviving an ancient one.

June of 2006. Only a decade off!

June of 2006. Only a decade off!

He quoted and addressed a question to member troyammons and that is the individual I referred to.