Brides parents want to delay payments for work

<p>Evening all, I'm curious about how the "family" would handle this one.<br>

My situation is that the brides parents are paying for her pictures, in my contract I state a non refundable deposit and the remainder of payment paid by wedding day. <br>

The brides parents wish to rework the contract to essentially break payment up into 3 parts, deposit, wedding day, and when the pictures are delivered.<br>

I do not do this, all kinds of reasons and experiences, but suffice it to say that I feel signing a contract, having insurance, being an LLC should provide as much reassurance to her folks that I am not merely going to take the money and run. Not to mention an arms lengths list of references...<br>

Here's where you folks come in; How would you explain this to the parents (who live far away so meeting with them is not a real possibility) I don't want to come off as a rude Yankee, or be condescending to people who are spending a large amount of money. I just don't want to have to be hunting down payments after my only serious means of leverage has been compromised.<br>

So gang, how would you handle this?<br>

Thanks</p>

<p>Start by understanding that a lot of people are hurting right now.<br>

<br /> You could make this work by only by taking the first third as a non-refundable retainer, the second third at the wedding, and ntil the final third is paid only publishing the gallery of selects at a small size (no larger than 500 pixels on the long side) highly compressed JPEGS. Make sure they all have yourwatermark in the frames (Lightroom makes this dead simple to do) You might include in that gallery some full resolution frames that are cropped down to 500 pixel by 500 pixels of significant details.</p>

<p>Keep all communications in writing to eliminate any "I said, they said" fueld conflicts.</p>

<p>While I understand the concept of times being tight, this is not one of those circumstances, they are asking to delay payment until the images are done and received. Not saying they can't afford the services.</p>

<p>Daniel -<br>

Do you already have a signed contract or is this a "potential" client?<br>

I'm with Ellis on this one - I don't think they're worried about you taking the money and running, but that certainly may be playing into it - but more likely they're worried about money right now (who isn't?) and want to try to spread things out a bit from the wedding.<br>

If you don't already have a contract with them, I'd say go for it. 1/3 now, 1/3 at day of or before and 1/3 after. Do as suggested - don't delivery (phyically) any photos until you get the money... I learned that one the hard way - groom paid all but $100.00 and said that I'd have the balance in week... It's now been 50 weeks. Remember that there's always someone who'll do it the way they want to.<br>

If you already have a signed agreement / contract with them, then you will need to write up a change order, assuming that you want to go through with the change. Both you and they will need to sign and agree to the new terms.<br>

Dave</p>

<p>All people are hurting. Including small business owners. Explain to your clients exactly what you pointed out to us.....you reputation and longevity in the profession. That in itself is their guarantee for their investment. That's what separates professionals from amateurs. And that's how professionals can require what they require. They chose you obviously because of your work and reputation. For them to all of a sudden want to change boats in mid stream is not fair to you.<br>

How about if YOU suddenly told them "gee, with this economy, I'm going to eliminate your main album and only give you an xxxx album". They wouldn't like it. So why should we have to suck it up when a client wants to change things on us. They made a free choice. Abide by the legally binding contract. No one put a gun to their head forcing them to book with you. <br /></p>

 

<p>Daniel,<br>

If you do decide to allow payment in thirds, DO NOT make the arrangements for the second payment to take place at the wedding. You could show up ready to go and they don't have the check waiting or they may pay you but the check bounce, etc. Be sure to collect no later than two weeks before the event so you can be certain of the funds clearing. <br>

Same with releasing the images. Arrange for the final payment to be at least one week before your scheduled delivery date. That way, you can work with them and still protect yourself. I got slammed a couple of times early in my wedding career and learned the hard way, but I learned fast and made the needed adjustments.<br>

Your reputation will help as leverage, but as others have said, these are tough times for everyone and working with a client in some cases might be great for that relationship and for good PR.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

<p>Your practice of a half and half payment arrangement is the same as mine, and it's a valid one. One thing I think many vendors (and clients too) fail to realize is that any business has to have cash flow to operate and flourish. I spoke with a friend who operates a popular wedding venue recently. Most folks book that venue for a total cost $5000 or so, depending on services and arrangements they select. The vendor takes a $500 non-refundable deposit (I told him it should be "retainer" not deposit) to hold the venue. He says about 6 or 7 couples a year cancel out for various reasons (they break up, they change their mind, they run out of money, whatever), and there he sits with $500 and no guarantee of booking the venue for that date again at the last minute. It's the same problem with us photographers. We can just as easily get caught out at the last minute with a broken up (or broke) couple, no other booking for that date, and without the rest of "the carrot" to finish the job.</p>

<p>I told him that his problem was that his potential clients have no "skin in the game" this way, and he's losing thousands of dollars to these cancellations. And his venue is a TON more expensive to operate than my photography business. A lot more legwork to keep up too.</p>

<p>What you have to keep in mind is that it may be a whole year or more before you actually get to shoot that wedding and get the other half of the "carrot". You've got expenses between now and then, and must have cash flow to survive. Explain to your clients (verbally in a get-acquainted warm fuzzy phone call) that many such businesses operate this way, and that you have your business to maintain. Your practices ensure that a) you are able to maintain your business even in difficult economic times, b) that you agree to turn away all other offers for your services in the meantime, even if they were to be more lucrative, c) that the fee guarantees to them the excellence of your product and your personal work on their special day, and d) protects you as a business person the same way it protects them as the client. Go over your references, vendor partners, testimonials, etc. if they doubt your veracity.</p>

<p>If that doesn't wash with them, and you really want/need the job, you might offer to let them break up the payment into three payments (first two non-refundable), but all must be paid by the wedding day in full. If they fail to make the last payment, you should still shoot the event (even though your contract says you're exempt from having to do so), and withold their images until paid in full. Be nice, be professional, and be diplomatic. You don't want to run them off, you just want them to play ball and see you as a professional. Stick by your practices.</p>

<p>All good thinking, I already do What George, Ellis, and David suggest as part of my normal work; within 2 weeks of the wedding there's a slideshow up for people to see about 10% of the pictures set to the music of their first dance and a few others.<br>

The clients want me, at this moment no contract is signed, the reason for that is one I wasn't aware of until after the fact, with the parents paying, they sent the contract to parents in TX, people who haven't met me or had me sit in their kitchen to answer questions (as I did with their daughter and future son in law) there away from any questions asked or answered, did they decide they wish to add this provision. Though my contract states clearly that payment must be made by wedding day.<br>

Their position is that they don't wish to pay for anything completely, no matter the cost, until pictures are in their hand. My position is that I will not accept payment on terms dictated outside of my control. My thinking is that well, let's face it, I don't want someone deciding that Uncle Bob's pictures are just as good as mine because in his everyone is smiling at the camera, and why should they pay full price for "fuzzy" pictures...do I wait until the pictures are in their hands, or online to have to try and explain depth of field to the parents of the bride?<br>

What I really need is the most persuasive way to educate my clients parents (or because they are paying are THEY my clients?) that professional photographers sign contracts, provide references, and belong to professional organizations, not craigslist (not that there's anything wrong with that :-))!<br>

So how would you tell them that they shouldn't worry, even though they are?</p>

 

<p>Don't give the files, images, whatever you do, until all of the money is paid. I've had a few clients that took their time paying, I just didn't give them anything until the payments were made. One client came by to see the photo's and wanted to take them, but I had to say no. Within a month or 2 she got her prints. If you give your work away before they make their final payment, most likely you will be in court asking the judge to make them pay you.</p>

<p>Been here before. My response was simply to offer a full refund and suggest that they find another photogrpher willing to do this. I ONLY have the bride and groom as my contract parties, regardless of how they provide the funds...</p>

<p>Not happeining in my world, sorry.</p>

<p>Can you find out the payment terms for the florist, caterer, wedding planner and reception hall facility? I'd make my terms congruent with theirs.</p>

<p>Hi Daniel ...<br>

I've been doing weddings on a part-time basis for over 10 years now. In a one-line background: been shooting advanced amateur for over 40 years and when I retired I took some courses and started doing wedding photography - first two as second camera with a pro, then one in-the-family freebie for my nephew - using Pentax 645N and for the last year all digital with the usual photos on DVD and an enhanced version with composites and music.<br>

Regarding payments - I could never understand why most - if not all - pro photographers required that full payment be made BEFORE having any of the goods delivered. So against much advice to the contrary, I split the payment schedule into 4 payments: (1) the non-refundable deposit to reserve the wedding date (2) a second payment two weeks before the wedding (3) 3rd payment when I deliver a portion of the deliverables - usually a hundred or so 4x6 and 5 8x12's along with the photos on a DVD (4) last payment when I deliver the enhanced DVD with composites and music.<br>

And I've never had a single problem with this method. I usually have approximately 80% of the due payment by the time the wedding comes around and the first two cheques have had time to clear.<br>

By the way, the deliverables were somewhat different when I shot film but the concept with deliverables was similar. <br>

Ray<br>

</p>

<p> </p>

<p>My contract says 50% with the signed contract and the balance 2 weeks before the wedding dare. I've been asked to change this a few tims, explained my reasons for not modifying the contract and have not lost a couple over this,,,,yet.</p>

 

<p>Thanks all, I'm just going to try and explain it to the parents, as for other vendors, their work is different then ours. We all know of enough bad luck stories where photographers skipped town.<br>

I am just going to do my best to explain to the parents that it's just not done, and they have the option of working with another photographer should my contract not work out for them, thing is, nobody in this market works with deliverables first payment second.<br>

Bob, yours is the scenario I hope to avoid.<br>

thanks guys<br>

d</p>

<p>The problem with Raymond's method, as I explained earlier, is that if the couple breaks up or becomes broke due to any of a world of unforseen circumstances that can happen to anyone, he's stuck with only 1/4th of his money, he's turned away any other possible inquiries, and he potentially ends up with no other booking to fill that date. I'm glad he's never had a problem with that practice, but it's not the best method...from a business standpoint.</p>

<p>Steve, explaining to a customer that you need the cashflow now to cover current expenses is not good business practice. How do you plan to cover the real expenses that occur when you shoot the wedding? In my book, you are running a shoestring operation that is doomed to fail in a faltering economy. Deposits/retainers should, in theory, sit in a trust account to be used when you start the project, not pay last years rent, etc.</p>

<p>This is a primary reason a lot of small businesses go under, they are severely under-capitalized and use deposits, etc, to cover current expenses and when the time comes to deliver the goods and services contracted for they are out of money and out of business, with pissed off customers who will not book similar services from other providers when they have to prepay months in advance.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I think you missed something Bob. First, I don't get into the actual discussion of how I spend my fees with the client. I was simply explaining the reasoning, which I think the OP fully understands, and I hope most here do as well.</p>

<p>To any questioning client (and they're very few, 98% of my clients expect this arrangement), I simply maintain that to stay in business, and provide excellent service, these are my policies. Most photographers I know (except the newbies) do the same thing, and it's an accepted practice to take half and half. I'm paid half to book and the other half on or prior to the wedding day (this is typically where any fulfillment expenses are covered). What's left is what we in the business world refer to as "profit". Since the half retainer fee up front is non-refundable, there is no need for it to sit in a trust account; I can use it to operate my business, market, repair gear, etc. Since the last half covers studio fulfillment (typically proof book, disc, and print package, which is in the $100-200 range at most), and what's left is profit, and since the client gets what he's contracted for, there are no collection issues, no squabbles, and happy clients. There's nothing shoestring about it at all, it's what most of us do.</p>

<p>We have to have cash flow to operate a business. Let's say a $500 or even $1000 lens craps out at a wedding. We can't afford to be without that lens for the next shoot, can we? We have to have enough capital available to not only cover our normal operating expenses, but the unexpected ones as well. We send the lens off to be repaired, buy a replacement lens to use in the meantime (assuming we can't rent one), and then when the repaired lens comes back, we Ebay it to recoup most of our money.</p>

<p>If I kept a retainer fee sitting in a trust account, and could not touch it until the wedding (who would police that, anyway?), that creates a situation of spiking cash flow (peaks and valleys) as opposed to smooth cash flow. I'll take smooth.</p>

<p>I'm not "under-capitalized" with this practice at all. I'm not sure where you get that idea from. Rather, as new bookings come in and existing ones are fulfilled, one can make a very good living with the right business model.</p>

<p>What the parents are requesting was actually the typical payment policy for most studios 10-20 years ago.....their request may be primarily due to what's familiar and comfortable for them as a matter of their experience. I'd probably be OK with it.</p>

<p>I also agree with David W.: no matter who actually provides the payment, the B and/ or G are the ones who sign the contract and are identified as the clients.</p>

<p>I tend to always work on a 3 part fee-schedule anyway - in fact, exactly as your client has asked for. But with the proviso that nothing is handed over without final payment, and usually the final payment is at the viewing.</p>

<p>First payment is booking fee, which is always non-refundable, since the service is to make the booking. Second payment is 50% of the fee; wholly, partially or non-refundable in case of cancellation on a sliding scale commensurate with notice; final payment is balance of account on delivery of product.</p>

<p>Daniel:</p>

<p>I'd simply restate my policy. My fee structure is based on payment up front. If I'm going to have to hire somebody to chase accounts receivable, I would need to increase my fees. Since that doesn't contribute to the quality of the product I create for my clients, I choose not to use that approach.</p>

<p>It doesn't really matter what other vendors do (most of whom are paid up front, too.) The only policy that matters is yours. I'm assuming you have a sound business reason for all your polices. If you can change any of them without adversely affecting your business, I'd question why you have the policy in the first place.</p>

<p>Eric</p>

<p>Hi Steve C. ...<br>

You wrote "... he's stuck with 1/4th of hismoney ..." ... well, not exactly. <br>

I have 80% of my due payment TWO WEEKS BEFORE the wedding and the checks have had time to clear.<br>

Ray </p>

 

<p>To put a little finer point on my final payment policy, my contract is written with specific language that accounts for funds being paid in full (checks have been cashed, or funds are paid in cash) by wedding day. So I'm paid in full (cash in hand) on wedding day. A "two weeks before" policy is standard for many shooters, and is a good idea, but most shooters I know require 100% of funds in hand, not just 80%. I guess we all have our different methods, and if it's working for you, I've got no problem with it.</p>

<p>I personally would not accept any agreement, where they pay you for pictures when you deliver them.<br>

b/c then you'll hear the old standby "well you'll get the money if I like them", I fully understand that lots of people are broke these days ..... and I am too, but I also know a bad business idea when I hear one.</p>

<p><strong><em>What the parents are requesting was actually the typical payment policy for most studios 10-20 years ago.....</em></strong><br>

<strong><em></em></strong><br>

That was so here, too, and now the studio has modified it to be 50% / 35% / 15%.</p>

<p>The 50% on booking; 35% four to two weeks out; 15% on supply of goods.</p>

<p>WW</p>

<p>My own method is 20% to book and balance on the day of the wedding. There have been rare occassions when they forgot the check. Then there are times where I know the couple has to leave the party and go to the room to get the check and I'll (using my judgement) tell them to just mail it to me. I have found that making these exceptions brings an awful lot of good will. You really have to have a feel, though, when those exeptions are made - for the couple. But, I've always gotten paid. 100% of the time. I guess it is because those photos are being held hostage ;-)</p>

<p>There have only been 2-3 times that I allowed the couple to pay a third portion of the balance when the proofs were ready. These were cases when I really liked the couple and really wanted to shoot their wedding but knew things were tight. </p>

<p>I say you have to use your judgement and also decide if you might loose the wedding if you stuck to your policy. How hungry are you? It is very rare that a couple will get divorced or not want the photos after the wedding. I find the photos that you are holding until the check clears is a great motivator for payment. I'd first try and stick to my guns and if there is further objections, I might go ahead. But that's me and probably because I've never been burned.</p>