Best Way to Learn Large Format (ie 4x5)

<p>Hi everyone.<br /> <br />Please forgive the newbie question.</p>

<p>I am interested in learning how to use a large format camera. I think I want to begin with a 4x5 camera on a tripod. My aim to shoot black and white portraits of people using slow speed, low grain film to make large prints with.

</p>

<p>I love Avedon's book, "Into the American West". I'm not as ambitious as to start try using an 8x10 camera like he did (and on the road!). 

I think 4x5 is a great way to get my feet wet. 

</p>

<p>My question's are as follow's:<br>

<br />Other than getting my hands on a camera (which I plan to do at a local community college that offers a class but starts in August), are their any online resources that I can read up on tutorials for a beginning large format photographer? I'd like to learn how to focus the camera, load & unload film, and general things like that. 

</p>

<p>Are their any good books to be recommended? My local library is close by.</p>

<p><br />Also, what is a good camera system to be used inside & on my roof that I can get into for under 1k? I'd like to have a body, 1 portrait lens (ie normal to telephoto), a back and a tripod. Something simple to use, durable, takes great shots and is not "moody".<br />

<br>

I know the basics of photography pretty well (ie. metering, composition, iso, etc...).<br /> <br>

I have worked extensively with 35mm, medium format, digital and range finders. I am comfortable in all those formats. Large format to me is the last great frontier in my learning curve. One that I am eager and a bit wary to begin.<br /> <br>

The Photo.net community has been a great place for me to learn and read. I enjoy the back and forth and all the thoughtful comments that lead to what I am guessing most of us want: better pictures.</p>

<p>


Please let me know what you think. Thank you.<br /><br /></p>

<p>My recommendation, the way I learned, was to read Ansel Adams' The Camera. I did this back in the early 80's but the cameras are the same in how they function-now and then. I had also spent much time with MF and had learned the zone system, but when I got my first view camera, having studied the above book for some time before that day, was able to use it pretty fluidly right from the beginning.</p>

<p>These books (his whole series) are still available I believe and should be in most good libraries.</p>

<p>Get a Graflex Crown Graphic or Super Graphic, a 135mm Optar or Ektar lens, some film holders, a light meter and go shoot. You won't need a tripod if you start with ASA400 film (I like Tri-X).</p>

<p>Hi John,<br /><br />Thanks for the recommendation. I went ahead and placed a hold on "the camera" book at my local library. I'll be reading it.<br>

<br /><br />Hi Robert. I'd like to shoot slow speed films (thus the tripod). Are the camera's you recommended handheld?</p>

<p>Till you educate yourself, there is no point to purchase anything. I picked up <em>Using The View Camera</em> by Steve Simmons through cheap outlet for books. Perhaps it doesn't cover everything, but it's incredibly useful for LF starting person. <br>

Cameras and lenses can be v. inexpensive (less than $300) and they can also go up to thousands....much depends on camera/lens/es. The net has LF thriving community and I'd suggest you check out various options (besides PN).<br>

<br />Once you understand the technology, it my be easier for you to choose certain camera or lenses for certain purposes. One word of caution, although some folks hold onto analog meters and they may work well for them, it would be wise to purchase more up to date digital meter (particularly spot), since the parts are more readily available - this was v. good advise from one of the repair shops.</p>

<p>Anyway, good luck.</p>

<p>Les</p>

<p>Hi Hootan,</p>

<p>Are you trying to learn LF cameras, or View Cameras? Let me specify what I mean. If you are trying to "just" learn details specific to LF cameras (e.g. how to load LF film), that is fairly straight-forward and Robert's suggestion to get a "Graphic 45 and go shoot" is quite accurate (I would still recommend Ansel's book, though).<br>

However, if you want to learn how to use a View Camera properly, with all the movements and capabilities, that's a completely different thing (but a very rewarding one :) ). You mentioned that a local community college has a course -- if that's a LF/View Camera course, definitely take it (I have been doing so myself for years), and until then get the basics on film handling and the supplies ready. I wouldn't recommend a Graphic 45 for that purpose (too few movements/capabilies), but either a field camera or a monorail, depending on your likelihood to take it outdoors. On the lens side, I would recommend a 150-210mm lens (either modern or old, depending on your budget)...</p>

<p>The books by Ansel Adams will get you on the right road, and the old Crown Graphic/Graflex cameras will be fine for your purposes, as portraits do not require movements. Do yourself a favor and get a Heliar lens if you like to do portraits. There are no finer lenses made for that purpose. But before you invest a lot of money and time into this, get the basic camera and stuff and see how it goes before upgrading anything. LF is not for everyone, and it didn't work for me. In a studio setting, yes, but toting that gear in New Mexico summers was miserable. </p>

<p>I have always found Q. T. Luong's large format page very useful :<br>

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/</p>

<p>Hootan,</p>

<p>Some people are great at teaching themselves, they are usually the people who say that you only need to get a book and teach yourself (it worked great for them, so it is the best for you). However, not everyone learns best this way. You need to think about how you learn best. If you learn better by having someone show you the basics, you should try to find someone nearby who is willing to help you. I do recommend reading either the Ansel Adams or Steve Simmons books to supplement this. BTW, the Simmons book is written to be a little easier to understand for newbies</p>

<p>A community college could be a good route. If this is a large format class, you might want to wait until you take the class. First, by using their cameras, you can hold off buying a camera until you know what features you need (and if you even want to continue with large format). I've had some students over the years hate large format entering the program and it ends up being their favorite, while others think that they want to do large format, but end up frustrated with the discipline required and abandon it completely.</p>

<p>Lastly, please don't take Steve M.'s lens recommendation seriously. I have, use and love my Heliars, but there are some other GREAT lenses that are out there for portraits. Please try not to get sucked into the attitude that one lens is the best. The vast majority of lenses will work for portraits. Avedon, Penn, Karsh, Hauser, Corbijn, and many other great portrait photographers did not use a Heliar and their photos are pretty good</p>

<p>Please check out the link Colin posted. There's a ton of info on the main page and a forum dedicated to just LF as well. The forum has a section for images with several threads on portraits, too.<br>

As for buying a camera, it could be smart to wait until you've used something in the LF realm and can decide what you want. But you might want to keep an eye out for deals just in case. If you buy something and don't like it, you should be able to get pretty much what you paid as long as you buy used to start with. Prices seem to have stabilized for used LF cameras. And I would suggest buying used to start with, though maybe with help from the LF forum in Colin's link or people on APUG - they'd be less likely to steer you wrong than a random listing on Craigslist or EBay. </p>

Head and shoulder portraits require a camera that can comfortably shoot a vertical shot, i.e. a revolving back. Most press cameras (Crowns, Speeds) don't have this but The Graflex Super Graphic, Busch Pressman Model D, and the Meridian 45B do have revolving backs-- all older classic cameras but they still exist in sufficient numbers. All monorails have them too, and you can pick up one for $100-400. $400 will get you set up in a used Sinar monorail, a great camera system that's modular and cost 10X as much back in the day to get your feet wet. For sufficient distance from your human subjects that you're not distorting facial features, and less intimidation, I'd suggest a 210mm f/5.6 plasmat lens in a modern Copal shutter thread. Mint lenses abound. These were once the coin of the realm for commercial studio photographers, but not so much anymore. Used these commonly sell for under $250 in a pristine shutter. The "backs" or film holders are about $5-10 each used. Most any sturdy tripod can be pressed into 4x5 use.

<p>if you are just wanting to shoot portraits, you don't even need to bother reading the view camera books,<br />you more than likely won't be using many camera movements, except for tilt for facial - feature foreshortening ...<br>

look for something like a rembrandt 5x7 portrait camera ( or ansco ) that will give you a large front standard so you can use larger lenses. get a 4x5 reducing back too. rather than reading endless books, just get some film holders and a box of photo paper .. trim about 1/16th of the edge off and practice loading the film holders ... then take photographs with paper negatives that you can see your results immediately ... you can find one of these cameras for less than 100$ ... when you decide you like the format and feel comfortable with it, sell it and get a different camera ... people always put some sort of mystique around shooting large format, it really isn't hard or difficult and its easier to do, rather than read .. ymmv of course.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>First of all, Avedon's book, <em>Into the American West</em> was hardly shot, 'on the road'. Avedon sat safely in his motor home whilst models were auditioned, placed and art directed by assistants who actually glued the dirt onto the subjects and set up the cameras until Avedon was called out to snap the pictures and throw the lenses if someone offended his sensibilities. I know this because I had to straighten them out at the time. He was called on the carpet for trying to perpetrate this fraud at the time, but managed to weasel out of it.<br>

If you want to learn large format, and there's really no point to using large format for portraiture any more, find a photographer, preferably an OLD photographer that shoots large format and offer to intern for them. And be respectful. The point of using large format these days is to learn about movements.<br>

But first, go to <a href="http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=large+format&oq=large+format&gs_l=youtube.3..0l10.1129.6402.0.6657.12.4.0.0.0.0.700.1376.5-1j1.2.0...0.0...1ac.1.xWONyBXUP6g">YouTube and find videos there about shooting large format </a>and seek out what interests you and take it from there. </p>

<p>I just bought a Speed Graphic, learned from the web, and went out and shot. It wasn't that hard at all. <br>

Main thing is to do everything extremely methodically, from loading the film, to focusing, determining exposure, unloading film etc. Very rewarding process. I shot mainly Polaroid 55 for the immediate gratification, but that was then. </p>

<p>I'll second a few items already mentioned based on my recent experience as I too am a relative newcomer to LF. <a href="http://www.largeformatphotography.info/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.largeformatphotography.info/</a> is an invaluable resource with plenty of articles and <a href="http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/forum.php">forums</a> to learn from. And if there's one book to get you started, it's the already mentioned <em>Using the View Camera</em>, by Steve Simmons. Although Adams' <em>The Camera</em> is good, I thought it to be a little complicated to start with; I thought Simmons' book was better for that.</p>

<p>Steve Simmons "Using the view camera" is the only specificly large format camera book I have read (and still do to refresh knowledge) when starting shooting 4x5 film about 3 years ago. I wholy recomend it, it gives excelent, clear and unpretentious explanation of view camera basics. Read it before you buy any equipment - it will help you make better decisions. Good luck!</p>

<p>Hi Everyone,<br /><br />Thanks for all the input. <br /><br />I have reserved a copy of the Adam's book. Just waiting to pick it up once it arrives at my local library.<br /><br />I'm also looking for the Simmon's book. I find that if I read about something while at the same time having access to the equipment, I do a lot better.<br>

Like I said, I am primarily interested in portraiture in the same spirit of the Avedon book. Namely, black and white, full body to 3/4 shots against a plain white (or black) background.<br /><br />I'm not dogmatic when it comes to brands although I do have preferences. I def. want to "play around" with the 4x5 system before I commit $$ into getting my own kit.<br /><br />My aim is to shoot the best resolution (slowest speed, lowest grain) in order to make large prints. I love b&w photography. I'm happy w/medium format and 35mm. Both have their advantages and strengths. I just want to add LF to my toolbox. <br /><br />Noah, I will love to hear more stories about your experiences. It's often times that the person and their public persona are not one and the same. I'm currently reading Laura Wilson's book on her assisting in the making of the book.<br>

<br />Photography is like the puzzle that will never be solved. The process is the pleasure, at least for me. I love learning and taking on new challenges. I don't think I need to learn all the movements & such. I'm much more interested in just taking a high quality picture using this format. If I get comfortable, I may move onto larger camera's (8x10). <br>

I'm also going to check out the website Colin linked. <br /><br />Please let me know if there's anything I missed.<br /><br />Thank you.<br>

<br /><br /><br /></p>

<p>Congratulations, Hootan; you have some great photographic experiences ahead! As a shooter and lover of large format (and photo teacher) for many decades, let me just say all the advise above is good. In addition, I hope you can get into developing and printing your film. That's the other half of the fun! <br>

Tips: 1. Do not over- spend on the camera---Speed, Crown Graphics are perfect. After some experience you may want a field camera, a monorail, or another press camera. <br>

2. Buy new holders; it;s a bummer to undermine yourself with leaky holders.<br>

3. The Simmons book will help; Also look at View Camera Magazine. And read the Photo.net forums.<br>

4. You can teach yourself, but you'll learn faster with the Community College; plus you wget access to a large format darkroom.<br>

Good Luck!</p>

<p> </p>

The best tool for learning how to actually make portraits or any kind of photos with a large format camera is to use

whatever the modern version of Polaroid there is to be had. I think a company called The Impossible Project makes it and

Fujimay still as well. The reason is simple: the immediate feedback of the print gets you closer to seeing whattheend

result will be and the expense per sheet makes you want to learn from your mistakes quickly and deeply.

Noah worked for the greatest camera repair and photographic equipment modifier of all time, the late and truly great

Marty Fischer. He has many stories to tell about life in the photographic trenches of the '70s, '80s, and '90s.

 

I take him at his word about Avedon's working methods while doing "In The American West" for a couple of reasons.

 

Avedon himself called his photographs "fictions." He took Shakespeare's tossed off maxim "All the world's a stage" to

heart and made the people in front of his cameras into players performing roles that he wrote. In short, he knew what he

was looking for and went out (with the help of assistants and producers) to find it.

 

 

He made his photographic portraits look the way they do to tell the stories he wanted to tell. That is the essence of his -

and maybe all great- art: to express what you want to express so cleanly and purely that not only do the end results look

straightforwardly simple, they also are made with such passionate belief in himself and his way of seeing that you believe

them.

 

Secondly, Avedon and his friend the great graphic designer Marvin Israel were mentors of a sort to Diane Arbus. There is

a kind of competition between RA and DA going on all through the 1960s until Arbus' suicide. Even earlier, Avedon was

engaged in direct commercial competition with the studio of Allen and Diane Arbus. You can see the shared fascination

with the fringes and outliers of humanity in both Avedon's and Diane Arbus' work but Avedon takes it a step further by

removing the people in his "white background" portraits from any sort of physical context - all the better to amplify their

oddness, physicality, and in some rare cases, their dignity and pride by using that absolutely white background . That

blank field was a achieved primarily by starting with a white background and then using manipulation a in the darkroom

when printing. But I digress into technical matters.

 

Avedon and Arbus's shared fascination with the extremes of human behavior, has deeper roots: their contemporary Jack

Kerouac's great novels of post WWII America, and from before that Walt Whitman's poetry and before that Herman

Melville's "Moby Dick."

 

So I guess my answer to your question is to read and to discuss, even argue, with your close friends -and put that into

your photographs. You have to think, and then you have to share what you think, what you believe in, using photographs

for your terms.

When I jumped into 4x5 photography, these are the questions for which I needed to find answers.

 

1. What focal lengths do I need. I looked at my favorite 35mm and medium format shots and came up with a formula for

a comparable angle of view on 4x5. I picked a couple of lenses that were near these sweet spot focal lengths, and that

worked out well.

 

2. How to handle film before and after exposure? I bought a changing bag, purposely ruining a couple of 4x5 sheets so I

could practice with them in daylight, and learned to load an unload my film holders. I learned to label my film boxes

carefully with super sticky post it notes and kept plenty of rubber bands on hand to keep the boxes closed tightly.

 

3. How to put the film holder into the camera and take it out. This wasn't as simple as it seemed, and at first I ruined a

few test exposures. Eventually, I got the hang of it.

 

4. How to focus and use movements. Resolved with a combination of practice and some research. A dark cloth and a

good focusing loupe are absolutely required.

 

5. How to expose. Tricky, but not substantially different than other cameras unless you are doing macro which requires

bellows extension. Or if you are dealing with long exposures where reciprocity failure echoes an issue.

 

6. How to mount the camera to a tripod. I use quick release plates with my cameras, so I needed to find a plate that

would fit my 4x5. Once the plate was attached, I was able to mount my camera the to my tripod head in the familiar way.

 

7. Developing. I used color reversal film, so I had a lab take care of the developing chores.

That's a great, great answer Dan: just do it.

 

Btw the formula for convert the angle of view from 35mm format (24x36mm) lenses to focal lengths for 4x5 is 3x. In other words if you like the field of view you get with a 24x36mm camera , you'll get approximately the same kingside of format coverage on 4x5 film by using a 90mm lens.

<p>The best way to learn it is to blunder right into it. Except for Ansel Adams, the books I have seen on the subject are so badly written that they are more difficult than the cameras. Just remember to start with everything locked down on zero.</p>