Begrudgingly considering digital... which M43?

<p>First off, does anyone know of a single site that lists all of the Olympus/Panny M43's cameras and offers comparisons? I stopped reading about these things for a year and now there's a dozen models with confusingly similar names.<br /><br />Secondly, any recommendations for a VERY old-fashioned film photographer who only owns one camera with a working meter and doesn't have any patience for the kinds of confusing and horribly designed interfaces of the Canikon dSLR's?<br /> <br />Must-have's:<br /> - Affordable: If money was no object to me I would buy an OM-D without even thinking about it.<br />- Retro lens metering: Also A.P. auto-exposure with retro lenses. Since I have an army of OM lenses, I would be buying an adapter and using those as much as possible.<br />- Simple controls: If it takes 5 button presses to do exposure compensation.... no good. Scroll wheel that does aperture settings is probably the most important control.<br />- Durable: The more metal and the less plastic the better. <br />- High IQ at night: I almost shoot more at night than in the day... seriously.<br />- Viewfinder: may be the hardest qualification :(<br /> <br />Don't-care's:<br /> - Art filters: don't/won't use them.<br />- On-board flash: meh.<br />- Image stabilization: whatever.<br />- Movable screen: I could see myself using this rarely.<br />- Hand grip: I have smallish hands for a guy, bulky grips just don't feel right to me.<br />- Olympus v. Panasonic: I love my Oly camera collection but the Panny's I've seen are nice and well-built.<br />- All black: The idea that "pros" shoot with black cameras is such a tired lame 80's fashion statement.<br />- Kit lens: it would be nice to have AF for actiony type shots, but not a deal breaker.</p>

<p>The answer to the first question is http://www.four-thirds.org/en/</p>

<p>The answer to the second question is OM-D, but if that on is too expensive, a second hand GH1 is a great alternatives, and even offers a few features that the OM-D doesn't have. They are not dirt cheap, but $3-400 should get you there, and if you're lucky, you can even find a new-in-box or one that is hardly used. The G3 is nice too, and not too expensive new, but the ergonomics are much better with the GH1. I often use a GH1 alongside an OM-2 or 3.</p>

<p>Be aware that the Panasonics don't have IBIS.</p>

<p>The G3 does look nice and simple. In the past I had seriously considered the e420, which is now very affordable, but 4 years old and probably well out-of-date in terms of sensor quality... and of course, a part of a system that may die at any moment. And of course those bigger e cameras won't accept my Pen F lenses!</p>

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<p>Must-have's:<br /> - Affordable: If money was no object to me I would buy an OM-D without even thinking about it.<br />- Retro lens metering: Also A.P. auto-exposure with retro lenses. Since I have an army of OM lenses, I would be buying an adapter and using those as much as possible.<br />- Simple controls: If it takes 5 button presses to do exposure compensation.... no good. Scroll wheel that does aperture settings is probably the most important control.<br />- Durable: The more metal and the less plastic the better. <br />- High IQ at night: I almost shoot more at night than in the day... seriously.<br />- Viewfinder: may be the hardest qualification :(</p>

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<p>Everybody wants a Leica M9 for $300. Seriously, get real...The G3 is your best bet.</p>

<p>Well *I* don't want a Leica M9, or any other overpriced Jaguar camera. What I want is something practical, that comes close to meeting my basic requirements, which are the features that used to come stock on every camera made in every price range for 50 years. </p>

<p>If you want an excellent EVF camera with great high ISO IQ made with durable metal with good ergo...You are looking at Nex-7, OMD EP5, Pro X-1. They are all $1k or over. Maybe you ought to lower your expectation, even dslrs under 1k are mostly plastic and all have decent, but not great VF...</p>

<p>If you have nothing of actual substance to say, please feel free to not respond anymore. I'm NOT asking about which advanced range camera meets my requirements, I'm well aware that most of them easily accomplish these, I'm also aware that most of them are packed with junk features and dedicated buttons for junk features that IMO are a lame excuse for the extra cost. <br /><br />I'm not a child, this post wasn't made on a whim because I'm too lazy to look into it... it's just a ton of confusing information to digest and I haven't been keeping up with it. I've looked around and have yet to find any site that catalogs the differences, pros/cons/features of these cameras or even one that just explains how the names of the cameras relate to their tiers. The site Jorgen posted unfortunately lacks real meat. A good old-fashioned chart would really come in really handy and I'm really surprised with as much discussion there is about this and as many different models as there are to choose from that there isn't something like that yet. </p>

<p>Patrick, you ask people for free advice. Take it for what it's worth. Telling people to not respond after they took their time to help you out is not coming across very gentle, to say the least.<br>

____ </p>

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<p>doesn't have any patience for the kinds of confusing and horribly designed interfaces of the Canikon dSLR's?</p>

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<p>Most m4/3rd cameras are about as bad, if not worse, in my view. Less external buttons means even more diving into menus. Some of them "simplify" matters by offering mainly only a mode-dial, with relatively complicated ways of setting manual exposure. So, I am not quite sure on what you base your assumptions the m4/3rd cameras are better suited to what you are looking for, because to me they don't seem to achieve that at all.<br>

Add in the want for a decent viewfinder, and it leaves me only thinking you should put aside your assumptions on DSLRs and start looking at one instead. They tend to tick all the boxes on your wishlist.</p>

<p>look at <a href="http://www.mu-43.com/">www.mu-43.com</a></p>

<p>Links to lots of µ43 gear here: http://www.m43reviews.com/</p>

 

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<p>Secondly, any recommendations for a VERY old-fashioned film photographer who only owns one camera with a working meter and doesn't have any patience for the kinds of confusing and horribly designed interfaces of the Canikon dSLR's?</p>

 

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<p>I'm in my late 50's and I really like µ4/3, but I doubt that you will. All the Olympus Pen cameras have P&S type controls. The Panasonic SLR cameras may do it for you. None of the cameras with 12mp sensors are particularly good at high ISO.</p>

 

Sigma DP-1 or DP=2 series. No zoom, not many bells and whistles but do have a larger APS-C sensor which should give better IQ. Will need an auxiliary viewfinder.

<p>Nothing substitutes for handling a camera. The charts are confusing and the instruction manuals are not very good either. A used camera is a good option, but I would still advise handling one first. You may change your mind about some of your qualifications even in a store. Best advice I can offer. Compromise is necessary, but one has to get one's feet wet with the digital world. I started with an Olympus C 5050 point and shoot, only five megapixels, but still quite usable. A Panasonic GH 2 or G-anything with a built in EVF, with an adapter would give option to use the old lenses,that is true.</p>

<p>One other thought, Patrick. I still think the rock solid Olympus E-1 is a knockout of a camera for its used price. And it has adapters for the OM lenses. Well designed machine. Hardly shows its age too. But not small, and not light. Feels good in the hand. Controls are easy to find and operate... Five megapixels <em>may</em> do the trick, if good colors and good JPEG is what you are after. Good luck.., aloha,gs</p>

<p>Forget simple, even the most basic digital camera can have a 300 page manual. I too am, or was, an old school photographer, learning on a meterless Leica IIIF, shooting slide film and guessing at exposure. With digital all that changes. Now we see what we will get before the exposure and what we got after the exposure. I can leave my camera in "P" mode and adjust my exposure using the "+/-" button or "AEL Lock" button. I favor Panasonic Lumix and have the G2 and a GF1. I recently purchased a Olympus EP2 for $230 so if you are willing to use a last generation camera you can save a pile of dough, last generation being less than a year ago in the case of Olympus. BTW, I think the Panasonics are a little better than the Oly up to this point.</p>

<p>FWIW you must first get to use a digital camera..All digitals, no matter how simple "they" appear are needing a dreaded menu plus a book of notes! You learnt your photography over a period of years and experiences. Digital is faster in every way. You will see what you are doing almost immediately! Better than Polaroid. Way better and cheaper. Note cheaper not free. Computers are required and drives to handle more and more images..<br>

I felt that way as you do now! A few hours shooting with a lowly Pentax Optio made me aware of the full potential. It was like having the keys to Kodak's warehouse..<br>

I would suggest spending a $100 or less on a basic digital. Get your feet wet. Then become aware of the dreaded Photoshop, Picassa or similar. It really is easy! It is fun.<br>

I have decided not to spend on a "higher" quality digital camera, as the point and shoot almost replaces my M3!I print 4x6 at local drugstore as gifts to friends and subjects. I also have printed larger 8 x 11 and in books of 8 x 10. The last book contained (by error) a small file 480 x 640 for e-mails. It printed fine, not noticeable..<br>

Batteries. Ah! Where you carried extra film, you need extra batteries esp. in the frigid months. I live in Toronto, Canada. Good Luck.</p>

<p>Patrick, another valuable, real world user 's personal opinion and data on various model Olympus SLR's site that talks in plain English, pluses and minuses, -not up to date, (hard to do that) true,- but still some good stuff to check out before the plunge into shopping:<br>

http://www.wrotniak.net/photo/43/index.html</p>

 

<p>I hope you're going to buy a cheap, used DSLR to try digital. That's the best way to get your feet wet, without spending much. Then you can sell that on Craigslist and get a new camera. Once you go digital, you will see all the things that you really want in a new digital camera. Until you've tried it and have some experience with it, you won't know. Maybe you're afraid of changing systems or something. Try not to be. New stuff is amazing. I used to shoot with Canon FD. Now I shoot with whatever is handy. I'm shooting with a Sigma SD14 and a Sony A55 for now.</p>

<p>The fold-out screen on the Sony cameras is something you will find yourself using all the time . . . if you have one. If not, you won't miss it, of course, because you won't know what you're missing.</p>

<p>My suggestion for the ultimate digital camera in an affordable package is the Sony A65 with the Sony 16-105 lens. If you just HAVE to have f2.8 capability, then get it with the 16-50mm f2.8 lens. Yes . . . it has plastic on it. So did the Canon T-90. That thing was amazing and it lasted for many years of abuse. The newest, most expensive cameras have plastic on them. Plastic really does work! They even use it in the space program! The M-16 is made with plastic, and some of them have been around for 40 years now, still working fine. Yes, I would prefer Titanium myself, but plastic seems to work fine for every camera I have ever had. Your digital camera will be long obsolete, and you will have traded up to a better one a few years from now, before the plastic goes bad, no doubt.</p>

<p>The new Nikon D800 is great too. Forget about all that BS about wanting your old lenses to work with your camera. You can get adapters to put your lenses on your new camera, whatever you get. There are adapters of all sorts (Nikon to Sigma SA mount, Leica to Nikon, Pentax to Sony, etc.). Just search eBay. If you're shooting with a tripod, you don't have to worry about the aperture. Just change it, when you're ready to shoot. Of course</p>

<p>http://www.ebay.com/sch/big_is/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3686</p>

<p>I've shot digital quite a bit... I've used a PNS for my own purposes and to help out others more times than I can count and I've handled and shot with many Canons (mostly in the lowest tier, a few in the prosumer tier) and a few Nikons. I have no problems with PNS cameras for their own sake as long as they do what they do well and without question, and have an easy way to disable the flash.<br /><br />Unfortunately, I live in an area without access to any kind of major electronics or modern camera store and I haven't seen any m43's in Best Buy, although admittedly it's not a place I go by choice very often. I may need to stop in one day and see if they have anything. Before I spend any money on a camera I *can* drive to Charlotte or Atlanta and get my hands on some floor models. But if there's something one generation old that meets my needs, it probably won't be on hand in a Best Buy.<br /><br />Menus themselves aren't as problematic to me as really bad menu design. If important features are near the top or have dedicated/programmable buttons it's OK, if they are buried deep in sub-menus it's no good. By important features I mean: ISO, aperture, exposure compensation/shutter speed. Virtually everything else to me trivial fluff.<br /><br />Thanks for the links... I'll look into them.</p>

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<p>By important features I mean: ISO, aperture, exposure compensation/shutter speed.</p>

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<p>None of those things are buried in menus of any DSLR or advanced P&S or µ4/3 camera. The control paradigm may be different that what you are used to, so you think it's bad design. Maybe, but it is what it is. It will take more than 5 minutes to figure out the camera controls and have them become second nature. It may take weeks of use before you can work a camera without thinking about it. It's like picking up a violin and saying it's design is bad because it doesn't work like the saxophone that you're used to. You have to come to grips that not everything works like a saxophone, and if it has to for you, you better stick to saxophones.</p>

<p>If you have at least a passing familiarity with digital P&S and dSLR cameras, you've got a massive head start over the place I was in about 5 years ago when I bought my first digital camera. I forced myself to buy one and forced myself to learn how to use it. Since then I've bought and used several digital cameras and every one of them had a learning curve but none of them was that different from any of the others as far as standard features are concerned. <br>

I own three Olympus and one Panasonic micro 4/3 cameras. Both of them require some fiddling around to get through the menus and know what all the features do. The Panasonic menu is a little easier to navigate but I prefer using the Olympus cameras--just my personal preference. Olympus menus are initially difficult to navigate and can be frustrating to those unfamiliar with them but there is a simplified menu available at the touch of a button that gives you access to all the important controls. Once you get the camera set up the way you want, you will seldom need to delve into the menus again. <br>

As to which of the two brands to buy, the best advice I can give you is to forget taking anyone's advice on what camera to buy. I'm pretty adaptable so I generally can get used to any camera in time but I know some people cannot abide the way some cameras must be utilized. If you already like and have familiarity with a certain brand of camera, film or digital, you will probably find it easier to adapt to another model of that brand. I sympathize with your inability to have hands-on contact with a lot of cameras. Here where I live there are now zero camera stores and Walmart, Target and Best Buy photo counters are pretty much only tethered cameras with no instructions and usually with no batteries installed. Don't even ask the sales staff anything and expect correct information. </p>

<p>The simplest way of controlling aperture/shutter is on my Panasonic FZ50 [ s/h $250<$400] with two knurled wheels for forefinger and thumb to adjust, front and back of camera. But I added the Pany G3 for other reasons and now one knurled wheel which does each job with alternate presses of it... after all ... how many times do you want to adjust both at the same time :-)<br>

The trouble with digital cameras is that to try and please everybody they can and do pack a lot into them but the advantage is that though it is there you don't have to use it ...I just use what I need for the photo coming up. But I realised recently that I've been using digital cameras for over a decade now and I guess I'm used to them.<br>

I am a confirmed bridge camera user and now with M4/3 I have my desire, a large sensored bridge camera which doesn't weigh a ton as if I organised similar with a DSLR. So my choice, not cheap by any means is the G3 with the 14-140 lens [ 28-280 AoV ] which is about the size and weight of my SLR with its 50mm lens, "what a camera should weigh :-)" . You pay for the tool you want.</p>

<p>The main thing against the G3 is the useless manual unlike those for FZ cameras I have been used to. A short hard copy and a longer pdf file ... how many take a computer with them into the field?</p>

<p>Why begrudgingly? If you don't want to do something, don't do it.</p>

<p>Steve, it's either get a digital camera or quit photography. There's not a single local lab I can trust with my negatives, and my attempt to do mail order ended in me being frustrated with their confusing price scales and them loosing a few rolls of my negatives. To say that my luck with film over the last few years has been flat out BAD wouldn't be overstating it.<br /><br />I'll probably end up doing some B&W darkroom stuff, especially 120... but that's a hobby. I need to shoot color to document my paintings and murals and the second-hand 4MP P-N-S with the burned out sensor just isn't cutting it.</p>

<p>For me, if it was get a digital camera or quit photography, it would be the latter choice.</p>

<p>Having said that , I only do black and white and process and print it myself.</p>

<p>Patrick, for evaluating comparable cameras it's still hard to beat dpreview.com for their interactive comparison widget. This lets you compare results side by side for up to four cameras.</p>

<p>It's very handy for comparing, say, 10-12mp small sensor or Micro 4/3 cameras in the same class against each other. Since dpreview uses fairly standard, consistent methodology it's about as good as it gets for real world evaluations.</p>

<p>Since you shoot at night, be sure to check both the high ISO results. That's a priority for me as well - I do a lot of handheld available light shooting in dim light. It's not unusual for the Micro 4/3 and smaller sensor cameras to impose a lot of noise reduction on JPEGs, even if the owner chooses to disable the noise reduction options. This can smear some fine details. But the raw files usually preserve those details.</p>

<p>With good noise reduction software you can control it with more finesse. I usually prefer to reduce the chroma noise a lot, but go easy on the luminance noise to preserve more detail. Noise Ninja, Noiseware and Lightroom handle that pretty well.</p>