Backing Up Your Work?

Discussion in 'Digital Darkroom' started by derek_thornton|1, Jul 17, 2014.

  1. Since 2007 I have been backing up my work on External Hard Drive and DVD. At this point I have too many DVD's and considering using Hard Drives to back up Hard drives. Actually, the price of DVD's have gone up and they are slow as molasses, you get more GB's per dollar with the Hard Drive. Despite that I think the DVD would be less prone to failure.
    Is there anyone here backing up their Hard Drive with other Hard Drive. The last thing I want to do is lose info, but the DVD's are piling up! I would appreciate any input for or against this method.
    Derek
     
  2. AJG

    AJG

    Derek, I feel your pain! I have continued to use DVDs as well as a RAID hard drive for backup, along with another separate set of hard drives for my images. Since I am a professional and people have a reasonable expectation that they can come back to me months or years later to get files, I feel that I have to make sure as best I can that files will be there and be useable when the need arises. So far, knock on wood, I haven't had any major back up failures that I couldn't cope with, and on a couple of occasions I have been grateful to have the DVD back up. Some people keep talking about the cloud, but the terabytes of images I have and the internet connection I can afford make that unrealistic.
     
  3. david_henderson

    david_henderson www.photography001.com

    I'm not really sure quite what you mean here, but if you're asking whether anyone backs up information on their primary drive ( normally internal but sometimes external) onto another hard drive ( mostly external) the answer must be yes, zillions.
    Frankly at today's image sizes and at the rate at which some people photograph with a dslr, DVD's ccan't really be considered as a primary backup medium any more IMO.
     
  4. Never used DVD as a backup medium since I consider them not safe (aside from being slow and cumbersome). Always used hard drives as backup - the key is to have multiple backups and in case a drive fails, to get a new one and put on it what was lost on the failed one.
     
  5. I use two hard drives as back up. One is connected to the computer, getting copied to every night, the other is at a friend's house several miles away. I rotate them every week. I have had hard drive failures but have never lost more than a day or two's work.
    <Chas>
     
  6. I use a Drobo 5 with five 3TB Western Digital Red drives as my main storage container and the first level of back up in an
    OWC RAID 5 box with four 3TB WD Red drives.

    For optical discs I use M-Disc DVD and Blu-Ray media. Better than standard optical disc media. Http://www.mdisc.com
     
  7. I do keep DVD copies of a lot of my images, but my primary backup for some time (since the images got too large for a single disc to do a day's work) has been HD.
    I have 1 6TB drive and two 1TB drives. One of the latter is for unedited originals, and the other two of each other. Plus older stuff on a 500GB drive. My main disc space is SSD, but mostly for programs and data in process. I have over 500GB of photographic images.
    Drives are commodities, these days.
     
  8. On the issue of DVD reliability, I have DVD backups going back to 2005, and the only ones that failed did so due to the idiot (that would be me) who created the oldest disks on his old XP machine and failed to finalize them so they could read on other computers. Even on those disks, the data was still intact when recovered later with IsoBuster software. I always kept the DVDs in a dark, climate-controlled closet, which may be one clue to longevity. I'm about to find out: We recently moved from Tennessee to Arizona, and all those old DVDs are currently sitting in a U-Haul pod in Prescott, temperatures in the 100 degree +/- range, until the purchase of our new home closes. If they'll survive that, they'll survive anything.
    Having said all that, I only do DVD backups now on an annual basis. Daily backups are done on two eSATA external hard drives, and weekly on a Passport portable hard drive that travels with my laptop.
    Also, my primary file is a second internal hard drive, since the main "C" drive is always more prone to failures and virus infection.
    Oh, and the cloud? Fuggeddaboudit...
     
  9. Yes, I am rotating hard drives to back up my main computer offsite. However I also dump new work to DVD or blueray
    right after a shoot. My primary backup is a hard drive, it's cheap fast and effective. However you can't beat DVD or
    blueray for some failure scenarios. Ransomware, accidents such as syncing up between drives and backup tombs being
    unreadable by your backup software. Oh and the magnet truck parking out front of your house... (Not serious)....
    DVD/BlueRay has the advantage of being write once therefore it's harder to delete it accidentally, though longevity is an
    issue. I use verbatim for my disks since they have a relatively good reputation. Though my DVD/BlueRay disks stay on-
    sight and I rely on hard drives for the rest. It think DVD/BlueRay is a good augmentation to not just rely on hard drive
    platters, but it's a combination approach of a few technologies that is the best choice.

    I recently got a BlueRay USB 3.0 external drive (Samsung) and I love it. 25 or 50gb disks. Still slow, but a nice compact
    way to backup a lot of data. Set it burning then go do something else.

    Also ref hard drives. I had an old hard drive with years of spinning on it that I stopped using and put into storage. I
    recently plugged it in and it wouldn't spin. Tried a few times and waited a few days and then it spun up. My theory is the
    bearings get old and sticky. Had to loosen them up to get it working. No real point here other than hard drives also can fail
    you if you stick them into long term storage.
     
  10. A 4GB drive acts a my main storage device. Every night that drive is cloned (updated) to another 4GB drive. Both of these live inside my Mac Pro. Every so often I plug in my Drobo and another bare drive into a BlacX device and use Carbon Copy cloner to update those drives. Eventually I should take one of those drives to the office.
    The secondary 4GB drive is this slower/inexpensive Hitachi drive. For my main 4GB I went with a 4GB WD Black with a 5-year warranty
    I recently completed uploading about 500GB of photos and videos to Amazon's "Glacier." This is cold storage meant for items that are infrequently accessed. If you are a Mac user look at Arq as the AWS interface. At a penny a GB a month this is my ultimate failsafe backup. Having everything there is real peace of mind.
    A few years ago I was backing up everything to DVDs but stopped. Even my old DVDs are perfectly readable.
     
  11. I use both hard drives and DVDs. My Windows 7 system has two 2TB internal drives, C: and D:. I set up a batch file that runs robocopy (command line, comes with Windows). I've got it set up to copy various folders. If anything's been deleted at source it get's deleted at destination. Basically mirroring.
    When the drives start getting too full, I start culling and/or moving to double DVD backup.
     
  12. Is there anyone here backing up their Hard Drive with other Hard Drive.​
    Me. I too never use DVD, too small, way too slow IMHO. Can't remember the last time I burned one.
    Multiple drives in circulation/rotation plus some cloud backup via CrashPlan.
     
  13. I too use hard drives. As principal storage and back up.<br>A couple of NASs and a number of external HDs to back up the NAS HDs.<br><br>DVDs are indeed too slow, too expensive and do not last very long. I have transferred (that is: am still in the process of transferring) the store of DVDs to HDs, and there are several DVDs that have read errors (losing a single or a couple of files) or can't be read completely. Not a big problem, since i have another archive, containing the original images on their original film. But just a reminder that DVDs (and CDs) are not archival media.<br>HDs aren't either. But it is a lot easier, faster and cheaper to creat an overly redundant back up on HDs.
     
  14. All my pictures are placed on Western Digital Passport 2TB drives where I do my work on them. These drives are nice because they pull the power from the USB port and I plug them into any computer that I have and can access my working picture libraries.
    Once finalized I copy the pictures to Western Digital MyBook drive (6-8TB) and I then create a backup and archive copy (stored off site) of the MyBook Drive. At the end, I will have four copies of each picture spread out over 4 drives:
    1. Passport drive original copy
    2. Primary Storage MyBook Drive
    3. MyBook Drive Backup
    4. MyBook Drive Archive
    I am on a mac. For backup and archiving, I use Carbon Copy Cloner. Use to use SuperDuper, but they were not keeping up with development.
    I have over 300,000 images managed.
    I have also used a RAID 5 system, but it is important to remember that RAID systems are NOT backups, just more stable single copies of your pictures.
     
  15. Welcome to the conundrum of Digital Is Better Than Analog Because You Can Do Lossless Copies And Yet At The End Of The Day The Medium Used Is Physical And It Isn't Durable As Old Analog Was.
    The bottom line is that you can't trust ONE backup medium. With the state of technology these days, I'd keep everything in one of the modern multiple terabyte NAS things, and a copy of that in a different household, refreshed periodically over the network. This last bit may be tricky to set up, but after that it will be flawless. I wouldn't throw away any DVDs either, but I wouldn't count on all of them lasting more than 10 years.
     
  16. Since someone had to make the "analog vs. digital" "point",
    Welcome to the conundrum of Digital Is Better Than Analog Because You Can Do Lossless Copies And Yet At The End Of The Day The Medium Used Is Physical And It Isn't Durable As Old Analog Was.​
    it's worthwhile to note
    1) look at http://www.wilhelm-research.com for some data on those "archival" film images.
    2) here's another comment on "Old Analog" durability:
    00ciFM-549845884.jpg
     
  17. Welcome to the conundrum of Digital Is Better Than Analog Because You Can Do Lossless Copies And Yet At The End Of The Day The Medium Used Is Physical And It Isn't Durable As Old Analog Was.​
    That statement could have some truth depending on what media the digital data was stored on but it's just ridiculous when the data is stored on multiple media and hopefully in differing locations. You've got ONE piece of film which as JDM von Weinberg illustrates, isn't very stable versus 1's and zero's which are either perfect or useless but one can build as many prefect copies of the numbers that make them feel they have protected the image.
    The bottom line is that you can't trust ONE backup medium.​
    Agreed, but you had one film original which is pretty fragile. I'll take a digital version over that any day of the week. Only a fool or someone who's got no education in digital/computers would only have one copy of a file they hope to keep long term.
     
  18. I'd more or less expect Andrew to nitpick, but not JDM. Well, if any of you read my comment as having anything to do with
    'analog vs digital', what can I say but whoooooooosh?

    The *media* used to store digital data are 'analog'. The lossless copies can be made not because the medium can be
    directly duplicated (like film) but because the data can be read and written to a new medium. This has created the folk
    belief that the medium is somehow digital, but it isn't. It's prone to deterioration, and user-writable media have so far
    proven very unreliable. For every person claiming they have never had a CDR fail on them, there are a dozen who have
    failing DVDs only 10 years old. It's because they didn't know how to store them? No, it's poor luck. Those same people
    often have 40 year old slides in their attic of which a majority are just fine. By the way, good luck retrieving anything digital
    from that tape you saved in the 1970s.

    But as I'm sure everyone here has their stuff in multiple RAID systems in different bank vaults all across the solar system,
    this concern is moot. Just how many duplicates did you used to make of your slides, while we're at it?
     
  19. Reading through these comments, I didn't see anything about protecting HD backups from surge, fire, flood, earthquake, explosion, etc. Ask yourself if you can afford to lose everything if any of these rare events occur. There needs to be a way of keeping backups far away from your computer. This is the primary advantage of the cloud, and if you don't use the cloud, you need to provide this protection another way.
     
  20. Reading through these comments, I didn't see anything about protecting HD backups from surge, fire, flood, earthquake, explosion, etc.​
    I do believe I mentioned CrashPlan. Further, I have a fire proof safe that contains duplicate drives of the data I feel is important enough to go in there.
     
  21. I'd more or less expect Andrew to nitpick, but not JDM.​
    Nitpick is your term for people who don't agree with you?
    The *media* used to store digital data are 'analog'.​
    I kind of deserves a big 'Dudh' and the reason those of us who understand these issues have multiple backup's. And in the grand scheme of things, your images and mine being lost isn't going to be a major setback for humanity. Maybe we should put or efforts into not killing each other or the planet at the same level of importance as backing up 'pictures'.
    Those same people often have 40 year old slides in their attic of which a majority are just fine.​
    You make that statement of fact based on what data? It's a ridiculous assumption and only a basis in fact for those attic's you've been to and examined each slide. Did you? Yes, I'm nitpicking a statement you'd like us to take at face value that under even the smallest scrutiny appears to be made up (which it is).
    But as I'm sure everyone here has their stuff in multiple RAID systems in different bank vaults all across the solar system, this concern is moot.​
    I will only speak for myself, the answer is yes, it's moot.
     
  22. david_henderson

    david_henderson www.photography001.com

    Nothing special about using multiple media at all- just the "multiple" bit. There's nothing about one HD to mean that its failure increases the risk of another failing, or a DVD failing, or indeed your preferred "cloud" service disappearing. Having multiple backups clearly makes sense but shouldn't be used as an argument in favour of one medium or indeed mixed media. Just two backups on different sites, ideally.
     
  23. Having multiple backups clearly makes sense but shouldn't be used as an argument in favour of one medium or indeed mixed media. Just two backups on different sites, ideally.​
    +1, well stated. S*&t happens, just have a backup plan.
     
  24. Even before you come up with a plan to back up your files, get a portable hard drive...today, and copy all
    your photos to that and you have one one good back up. Something like a Western Digital passport is
    reasonably priced.
     
  25. While I have 4 digital copies of my pictures and I occasionally start up each of the drives, another problem arises about
    legacy of the pictures. Few if any people will go back and look at those drives. Without someone maintaining and
    migrating the files to the next generation system, all your images will pass into oblivion. One of the biggest reasons I take
    pictures of family/friends is so that future generations can see who we were in the 2000's.

    This thought process has started me thinking of approaches to print archiving of the most important pictures. I wonder
    how other people think about this problem. Individual prints, books, something else?
     
  26. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    Nothing special about using multiple media at all- just the "multiple" bit. There's nothing about one HD to mean that its failure increases the risk of another failing, or a DVD failing, or indeed your preferred "cloud" service disappearing. Having multiple backups clearly makes sense but shouldn't be used as an argument in favour of one medium or indeed mixed media. Just two backups on different sites, ideally.​
    Sorry, David, I feel that is bad advice. In my experience, the people that usually offer this advice are also people that have never had anything go wrong. Human nature, most people are lazy and keep their multiple hdd's in the same place and just rotate them. One fire or theft, and it's gone. I see it often on social media. We can ask anyone that has had a hurricane or flood go through their town/state how they feel about only using hard drives. Or, like myself, that has had a virus infect everything....there's nothing worse than repeatedly building a new computer up, only to find your back up drives are also infected....and your thumb drives...and your CF cards. Bloody horrible and it can happen to anyone. DVD's and CD's dating back to 1997 saved my bum as well as the current gig I was working on. I was able to safely work on another terminal and my client didn't notice a thing.
    You're not backed up unless you have two different types of media, imo. I do three. Burn DVD's, multiple hdd's, and Crashplan
     
  27. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    Nitpick is your term for people who don't agree with you?​
    No. It's a term that describes your nature and reputation.
     
  28. In my experience, the people that usually offer this advice are also people that have never had anything go wrong.​
    So IOW, they are doing it right. Unless your stance is, do what you advise until something goes wrong (after which, ignore what Eric suggests, go back to what was working). IOW, if it ain't broke...
    Human nature, most people are lazy and keep their multiple hdd's in the same place and just rotate them.​
    No, only people who don't understand the proper way to deal with this task which is clear: rotate multiple drives.
    And if you really care about the integrity of your raw data, DNG (your favorite whipping boy) is quite useful now that LR has an option to check the all important hash placed in the data:
    http://dpbestflow.org/DNG#embedded-checksum
    Or, like myself, that has had a virus infect everything....​
    Not doing a proper job of safe computing? Been using a computer (Mac) since 1988, never had anything like you report. I must be doing something wrong...
    there's nothing worse than repeatedly building a new computer up, only to find your back up drives are also infected.​
    Man, you really do have bad luck. Glad we're doing things differently!
     
  29. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    Man, you really do have bad luck. Glad we're doing things differently!​
    Different. Like one of us is out there doing it and the other sits around in an armchair on the internet talking about it.
     
  30. david_henderson

    david_henderson www.photography001.com

    Don't agree Eric. First I did not give the impression that its great to keep all your backups at one site. The example you use is a problem of keeping all your backups in one place, not a result of using hard drives alone. I keep a complete backup off-site. Second I don't- and I think this is pretty generally accepted strategy- keep my external HDDs connected except when actually engaged in backing up. I've had a significant virus issue; my back-up drives were unaffected, as were my thumb drives and my cards, because they weren't being used at the time. Its not how many different sorts of backups you have that gives you protection- its how many backups, where you keep them and how you manage them.
    I will grant you that spreading your backups over different media doesn't per se do any harm, but personally I'm not going to burn 100+ dvds a year and then try to find some logical way to store and identify them when I consider the extra security that delivers to be negligible.
     
  31. Like one of us is out there doing it and the other sits around in an armchair on the internet talking about it.​
    I know you think you have a clue what I do, you don't. No more than I know what you ate for breakfast or the last time you relieved yourself. And that you continue to make such ridiculous assumptions only diminishes your lacking credibly. That you've lost data by your own admission IS telling for anyone who thinks listening to your advise is a good idea.
    I agree with David, you don't, fine. What is clear is your data workflow and ability to run a clean system is highly suspect by your own admission. In 24 years of working with digital images, I've never suffered any of the issues you have, so again, whatever you're recommending, I think the opposite approach is probably a sound move on anyone's part who may be reading your posts.
     
  32. I will grant you that spreading your backups over different media doesn't per se do any harm, but personally I'm not going to burn 100+ dvds a year and then try to find some logical way to store and identify them when I consider the extra security that delivers to be negligible.​
    Further, is anyone here suggesting DVD's can't fail years after being burned? Like Eric's idea of uploading raw to a cloud, DVD's are slow, don't hold much, are expensive per MB and AFAIK not immune from data rot. And as you point out, finding your data on large numbers of disks is slow and frustrating. And how about the trend to move totally away from DVD? My year old MacBook Pro doesn't even have a DVD drive. DVD, the next Syquest (if it isn't already).
     
  33. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    Its not how many different sorts of backups you have that gives you protection- its how many backups, where you keep them and how you manage them.​
    David, this is an opinion, a preference, and I have difficulties when such are stated as fact or law
    I see it differently, now. My virus wasn't easy to catch as it was only a few months old so the virus sites hadn't caught up with it. As I understand it, it sat on the bios and every time we booted-up what we thought was a fresh computer, we just reinfected pristine back-up hard drives and and went around in circles. The only way we caught wind of it was that when I was in Ubuntu, one of my jpg thumbnails was used for a weird file name and extension and it was with that info, my texh buddy was able to get it sorted from using forums. I eventually had to transfer everything from the infected computer through Google Drive and load dvd's onto a new computer. Sad, expensive, and time consuming. The only thing that saved my butt was dvd's.
     
  34. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    Don't agree Eric. First I did not give the impression that its great to keep all your backups at one site. The example you use is a problem of keeping all your backups in one place, not a result of using hard drives alone. I keep a complete backup off-site. Second I don't- and I think this is pretty generally accepted strategy- keep my external HDDs connected except when actually engaged in backing up. I've had a significant virus issue; my back-up drives were unaffected, as were my thumb drives and my cards, because they weren't being used at the time. Its not how many different sorts of backups you have that gives you protection- its how many backups, where you keep them and how you manage them.​
    Back-up drives that are all in one city can be considered "one site"? How many hard drives, but in different locations, still went down together with Hurricane Katrina, and others? We have forest fires here that have wiped out half of cities. Regardless, only doing hard drive back-ups is an "all eggs in one basket" approach, to me.

    I practice cloud with Crashplan (1) do multiple hard drive back ups (2) and are kept on the other side of my city. Every couple days, I plug in my 128gb PNY flash thumb drive (3) and mirror my current photos folder, and while I'm bickering with Andrew, I burn dvd's (4) in the back ground. It's easy to do as you make the data.
     
  35. So someone mentioned backing up to the cloud. Crashplan was specifically mentioned and I have seen them mentioned before. Cost does not seem to be the biggest problem. BUT transfer rates of 10GB per day is nearly a killer. A typical single project is 20-30 GB and a wedding can be as much as 100-150GB.
    I will sign up for a free account and test what I was told, but if true, this does not seem to be a viable option, just like backing up to 4.7 or even 9.4 GB DVD. Yes, I could consider blue-ray, but now it is getting expensive.
     
  36. The first rule is: All backup systems fail. Therefore multiple backups are essential regardless of what you use. I have 17TB of RAID on a Drobo. I also have four external HD of the 1-3TB each. I also use Apples time machine for short term back up. I may be paranoid about it, because of having to recover from failed drives or simply losing one of the multiple backups in the past. Hard source, air-gapped backup DVD used to be a viable mechanism. However, the limited storage on one DVD and the fragility of the medium is probably not a safe route anymore. What do you do if your backup burns down with your house? I guess cry a lot. Nothing is for certain, but I take more comfort in multiple copies than any other part of the strategy.
     
  37. Cost does not seem to be the biggest problem. BUT transfer rates of 10GB per day is nearly a killer.​
    Yes it can be. But you can have them ship you a big drive, copy on your end and send back. It's an extra fee. What I did was setup a Macbook and a drive and let it go for literally 10 days or so initially. I've got a decent upload speed through Comcast. Then daily updates are not bad. I'd also recommend uploading only finished files if you're working with such large numbers of images. I shot a weeding last month (don't listen Eric) and after importing in Lightroom, doing an edit and then working on the images I wanted, I only updated a subset of the good stuff so not a big deal in upload. But don't even consider uploading everything. Probably not necessary anyway, have 2+ backup's of the full shoot and move on.
     
  38. The largest seed drive is 1 TB per computer. For me to backup a 7TB drive to Crashplan would take 700 days! at 10 GB per day. OUCH
    Even to follow your idea of backup what is important from a wedding would still result in 30-50GB of data (I shoot a D800) and now I have to track in a separate folder images that were important and images not so important. It would get to be a management nightmare, I would think.
     
  39. For me to backup a 7TB drive to Crashplan would take 700 days! at 10 GB per day. OUCH​
    There are other means of off site backup if this just will not work. Like sending a friend or family member elsewhere a drive(s) to rotate couple times a year. Or just uploading the final hero images. But I agree, the cloud is too slow despite the future predictions from at least one member here as is download if you need to restore isn't fast enough either.
    CrashPlan's software, at least on Mac is pretty flexible where you can pick folders specifically for uploads while leaving other data alone. But 10 GB per day as you point out isn't going to fly.
     
  40. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    For me, Steven, it was my third back-up method and therefore lowest priority to rely on, so I just let it trickle away slowly and ignored it. You can plug in your externals as well and they will back-up. This was great for backing up my music and movies from my HTPC
     
  41. I wish I were as sure of anything as much as some people are sure of everything.~
    Can we all get along?
    Rodney King​
     
  42. I'm an IT guy. I have 2 USB portables, a 3TB NAS and CrashPlan. I don't know how I got through life without CrashPlan. Yes, it takes a few months to back up the first time, but then it's so not an issue afterwards. You can shove many gigs per day through a medium fast connection. CrashPlan is BY FAR the best system out there, configurable like no other, no restrictions of any kind and limitless storage for $60/year with a multiple locations structure. It doesn't get much easier...
     
  43. Kevin... I am curious as to how fast you can really transfer data to Crashplan. If you make a 20GB change to your drive, can you tell how long it will take to update and does it tell you that it is backed up in its entirety?
    Also, have you verified that your crashplan data is intact?
     
  44. I think that if there is a consensus emerging from this thread, it is that DVDs (and CDs) are not the medium to turn to.<br><br>Cloud storage? A matter of taste. Eric~ lives in fear that a whole city will disappear so a distribruted copy store needs to span multiple locations worldwide. Well, maybe. You could live in fear that your house burns down, so keeping a copy in the other room will be no good. And houses do indeed burn down. But your garden shed, your neighbour's house or your place of work hardly ever happen to go up in flames at the same time. So is it really safer?<br>Cloud storage has disadvantages too. Access to your data depends on the availability of the service and you having (fast enough) internet access. And there is that security issue: who else has access to your data, how secure is the transfer?<br><br>I think the thing to do is ask yourself how often you need to access your archive. How well did several piles of DVDs serve you? If all you are running into is the manageability of piles of small capacity disks, switching to HDs will already be a major improvement. Faster, cheaper, taking up less space.<br>If security concerns are an issue (did you have duplicate copies of all those DVDs?), you just should do what you should anyway: implement a back up regime (as many external HDs as needed, double that number, set up a back up schedule, and store the backup disks somewhere outside of your home or office) .<br>If easy access is an issue, set up a NAS in your home or workplace. You can create your own cloud using a NAS too, make it accesible over the internet, if you so wish (keep in mind though that there are security issues to deal with with anything that is accessible over the web).
     
  45. Q.G. a well reasoned comment and nice summary. I think there is one more issue.
    I have 4 copies of each digital file with at least one away from my primary residence. Not sure I believe in the model of cities disappearing, but who knows.
    A more perplexing piece of the puzzle is how these digital will survive into the future. About three years ago, i scanned all my dad's slides (1948-1988). He had preserved them in carousels and each slot of the carousel was labeled. It was fun project and I enjoy looking at them. I have also scanned 1000 of pictures dating back to 1800's and early 1900's.
    BUT, for all my digital assets and key wording, upon my passing, who will maintain and update those digital assets? No one I suspect and thus all those great pictures I have taken of kids, grandkids, wife, friends will pass into oblivion never to be viewed again.
    MY QUESTION is simple. How are people thinking about this problem of digital asset maintenance after one passes away? For me, I am leaning more and more to printing of commented books with the top 200-300 pictures per year. Another option is to just do prints and archive them in scrapbooks. Curious as to how other people are thinking about this problem.
     
  46. Good point, Steven.<br>Maybe your father thought the same, but you did take up custody of his slides. So why wouldn't there be someone who will take up custody of the archive when you have to leave it be?<br><br>The bigger question however: is it all worth being preserved for ever?<br>For us it is a 'working' archive. We know what we have, the good stuff, the less good, and even the bad that made it into the archive "because you never know...". We know what may be usefull, what perhaps could make some money, or what we keep in case a client wants to return to it.<br>Family photos are another matter. They serve as memories most important to the people in them, or to family and friends contemporary to the events they captured. A bit less for next generations, who don't know who is in them anymore, need to rely on 'what is written on the back' to know they show something that relates to them. Until they all become 'historical records' of days noone remembers.<br>When considering the life of the archive beyond it's immediate use, i'm sure very much of it can be (or even should be) thrown out. The rest should be well documented with the what, who, when and where of what they record. And perhaps most importantly why they are things worth preserving, why they are 'important' documents.<br><br>After that has been settled and organised, the shape and form in which it is kept is a matter of choice.<br>I started digitizing the family's photo archive too (still far from finished). We talked about redundant copies when discussing back up strategies. But 'redundant' digital copies also make it easy to distribute and share the archive (in this case among the family) in a way you can't share old negatives (well, you can if you make good copies on film. But it's much easier to do digitally). And everyone who is receiving a copy will be the custodian of his or her copy, so that will have taken care of that problem.<br>I'm sure the archive will be enjoyed most when it is printed. Paper copies, albums, are still good. Still very enjoyable. Having all the 'raw data', anyone can select what they want to put in such an album and have it printed in whatever size or form they want.
     
  47. I appreciate all of the responses. Much of the conversation was unnecessary but still appreciate it.
    I have come to the conclusion that I will trash the DVD's. I will have primary and back-up here at home and a third copy(favorites) at brothers house. I have 4 McCally cases with 1 TB Western Digital HD;s in each. They are separate external drives with a usb 3.0 hookup, nothing fancy. Over the years I have bought around 10 hard drives and have yet to have any failures. In fact, yesterday I hooked up a 14 year old Seagate that still worked great. Better to be safe than sorry!
    Derek
     
  48. Q.G....
    1. I only took custody after my mom passed away. My dad had passed almost 20 years earlier. So there was not chain of command so to speak.
    2. Is it all worth preserving? That is a very good question. I can only relate a story. When I started scanning my dad's slides, nearly everyone advised me to view them and scan only the important ones. The only problem with that recommendation was I could not possibly know which slides would be important to one of my brothers or their children or even to me in the future. In the end I scanned all 12,000 of them. And I am glad I did.
    Let me tell you why. Last year my wife and I traveled to Peru and Machu Picchu. My parents had traveled a similar path in the late 1970's. And it was fantastic to see the pictures he took and the ones I took, nearly 35 years later. At the time I did the original scanning, those Peru slides were mostly part of the noise, those judged to be unimportant.
    My belief is that I am not smart enough to know what will be important in the future. Given this belief, my bias is to try to preserve as much as possible. Yes, my son in Denver has much of the digital assets and he has the knowledge and skill to maintain them. And yes, my digital copies of my dad's slides and family pictures have been digitally distributed to my 3 brothers and one niece.
    BUT, I have this sense of fragility and have begun exploring ideas/concepts around making hard copies of the best pictures (in my and my wife's mind in 2014). I like the idea of books because the comments are readily embedded with the pictures, but I like the purity of single prints (quality will likely be better).
    Have you given much thought to paper archival prints? If yes, what solutions have you come to?
     
  49. Steven,
    My computer constantly putters away in the background, so the backup to CrashPlan is mostly continuous when I am working on files, like moving catalogs around. Yes, I have tested backups from CP and did a bit level compared with a program called Beyond Compare. It's 100% ok. Also, I have CP set so that even if I delete a file on my local machine, it is retained on CP. This is very nice and handy as I never really need to lose a shot, not even the bad ones :)
    It probably means I have 100K pictures to go through if I ever wanted to get them back and look for something, but at least I can it does not cost me anything.

    A 10G change in files takes an afternoon or so (20GB pipe here)

    As to handing files to your kids etc., make the whole electronic thing part of your will. My will is written (legal) and part recorded (updated every few years) with a video recording of my wishes when I go senile etc. a small part of that is where my files are, how to access them etc.
     
  50. In the end, having started with the "most important" images, I came around to the "scan them all" school.
    Moreover, I found that my slides in boxes of 'seconds' (most would have thrown them out, but I am an anal-retentive archaeologist) were often better after scanning and bringing up the shadow detail than some of my first cut.
    Out of that exercise I ended up with over 76,000 images. The last time, I did it right. ("scan large, scan once" is my current motto).
     
  51. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    A matter of taste. Eric~ lives in fear that a whole city will disappear so a distribruted copy store needs to span multiple locations worldwide. Well, maybe. You could live in fear that your house burns down, so keeping a copy in the other room will be no good. And houses do indeed burn down. But your garden shed, your neighbour's house or your place of work hardly ever happen to go up in flames at the same time. So is it really safer?​
    lol Q.G., Back to reality, I think it is safe with one copy across town and another in the garage. That's the way I do it, anyways. If the city floods, my dvd's float and can be rinsed and dried while I wait for an internet connection to Crashplan.
    I'm looking forward to ssd's becoming cheaper as the lack of mechanical aspect in them really appeals to me for back-up archiving and storage
    Derek, maybe consider NAS? I'm not much of a Drobo fan but maybe consider a 5 bay Synology. They can be found cheap on ebay and then stuff them with Western Digital 3TB Red drives? That might be my winter project this year so I can have NAS, cloud, and dvd and then stop the silly time consuming rotation of hard drive duplication.
     
  52. I would also stop the time consuming DVD circus, Eric~.<br>Do yourself a favour, and pick as large a HD capacity as you can to put in the NAS.<br><br>Steven, i haven't found an archival print solution. In the age of wet prints and labs offering what we need easy to find, i would print B&W myself and send the rest out. I still let a lab do the printing for prints that are to go on a wall (both colour and B&W - i gave up doing stuff in a head ache inducing dark room a while ago. Only wet thing i still do myself is process my films).<br>Online book print services now look much more attractive than single prints that slip into an album (of course not a substitute for prints destined to adorn walls). But those books probably aren't archival (and don't look as good as a traditional wet print). But the digitized negatives (and the 'real' ones too) are, so it will also be possible to redo the books or single prints.<br><br>I'm with you, JDM, on both the scan everything and scan once things.<br>But i'm sure the generations that follow us will find most of what we put in our archives rubbish and discard it. And i think that is a good thing. We can help them by documenting what the pictures show a bit, so they'll know what the archaeological treasures are, and what's just junk we kept because we thought it 'held promise'.
     
  53. Online book print services now look much more attractive than single prints that slip into an album (of course not a substitute for prints destined to adorn walls). But those books probably aren't archival (and don't look as good as a traditional wet print).​
    Not very archival as they are all toner based (think of them as huge color copiers).
    If you're looking for archival print properties, here are two good sites doing the science:
    http://www.wilhelm-research.com'
    http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/documents.html
     
  54. Andrew..great reference links. What do you think is the best archival approach? Obviously, it depends on media, ink and storage. Do you try to archive images?
     
  55. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    I would also stop the time consuming DVD circus, Eric~.​
    Odd statement after my entries here...All it takes is one click on the wrong web site and *poof*, gone baby gone. Regardless Q., it wont be anytime soon as I'm still grateful for having those few dozen spindles of dvds being responsible for my body of work being with me today.
    But who knows, maybe you're right and I throw caution to the wind in the near future when I build a nas. The nas however would be more for my convenience and not for back-up sake. I have two computers with aprox 15TB of hdd's that are aprox 3/4's full and would prefer to have that under one roof with nas and hot swappable hard drives and then be free of the current silly hard drive-back up rotation. Now that's time consuming compared to popping in a dvd in and burning it while I work. ;p
     
  56. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    "So screw it, get on with building a nas and just do it, you already have the hard drives" I said to myself after this thread yesterday. I visited ebay and have now won an auction for a Synology Diskstation 5 bay NAS. Runs Plex as well.
     
  57. Just wondering for the average amateur photographer. Does it make sense to back up everything? I mean, there are only so many decent shots anyway. The rest you'll probably never use.
    It reminds me when I use to get 36 prints from my rolls of 35mm film. Only a certain number went into an photo album. Yet I kept all the others anyway; "afraid" to throw them out. But it was really pointless. The ones in the album are all I'm ever going to look at. Yet I still have those boxes of rejected prints.
    Isn't it the same with digital storage. Or are we just "afraid" to throw out the stuff that doesn't work and will never ever be looked at much less use?
     
  58. Does it make sense to back up everything?​
    It's a lot easier to do and storage is cheap. Plus what you throw out today, you may very well need tomorrow.
    Or backup after you edit (delete the losers).
     
  59. "Does it make sense to back up everything?"
    Alan, I think it's more of a matter of personal habits and value judgments. Some people choose to live throughout their lives with little physical baggage while others want to keep everything, often in multiples. There's no right or wrong unless doing one or the other makes you unhappy.
     
  60. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    A friend of mine just had her apartment door kicked in. They grabbed a couple pillow cases from the bedroom and stuffed as much of her digital gear into those pillow cases as they could. In 3 mins, all her cameras, laptop, back-up drives...more or less everything that was shinny, was gone. She couldn't even plug in and charge her iphone to start to deal with the disaster....she sure wishes she had backed up everything with off-site copies
     
  61. Michael: My post was a mea culpa. I've been
    dragging around DVDs, prints and negatives of
    shots that will never be looked at again. I've been in
    my new home for a year and the boxes of old
    photos still are not put away much less looked at.
    I've got an additional 30 framed photos 16x20" that
    won't ever get re-hung but can't let go of them.



    My wife and I just moved her mom to a nursing
    home and have collected boxes and boxes of her
    mother's slides movies and photo albums collected
    for nine decades!


    It gets tiring dragging all this
    mainly useless baggage around. If I can't actually
    get rid of it all, I'm just gripping just to get it off my
    chest, that's all. Know what I mean?
     
  62. Know what you mean, Alan. I'm in a similar situation of needing to purge but unable to for one reason or another. :)
     
  63. I can't see why we are debating either keeping all your digital pics and/or using off-site storage. For $60/year, you can get unlimited off-site storage. Why even worry? Keep or not keep ... your call. Off-site takes the crap out of your domestic life ... :) (and prevents theft etc.)
    Or maybe you all's pics are not worth $60/year, that could be it too :)
     
  64. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    Or maybe you all's pics are not worth $60/year, that could be it too :)
    lol, haha
     
  65. Just because it is easy, and cheap (?) doesn't mean it is sensible, necessary or better.
     
  66. Just because it is easy, and cheap (?) doesn't mean it is sensible, necessary or better.​
    Actually no, it is better, much better for those of us that prefer easy and cheap over expensive and complicated. I've been handling digital images for nearly 25 years and have never lost one I didn't want to lose, nor have I ever had a virus. That can't be said for some here, by their very admission, who are giving advise. If you prefer a more expensive and complicated workslow, I mean workflow, go right ahead.
    If you want to disagree to be disagreeable, you're in good company.
     
  67. "backup after you edit (delete the losers)" you wrote, Andrew. Which already is more sensible - thus better - and still easy and cheap.
    The ability to store everything (and i mean everything) fast creates heaps of amalgamated rubbish and good stuff. We still have to sort things out. And paying for remote storage of rubbish is more expensive, unless you pay for far more storage space than you could ever use (then you would be paying too much too).
    And remember that we are talking about a (paid) back up for rubbish: the original rubbish would still be on your own, local storage. Should you ever need it.
    So just because it is easy and cheap (?) doesn't mean it is sensible, necessary or better.
     
  68. I'm with Andrew on this, except that I no longer use DVDs. DVDs are fragile. Their advantage is that in the event of a catastrophic failure, like a fire, they can be located in another location. I am paranoid about backups. I, too, use a Drobo RAID backup with 24TB of space and three external drives. I'm on a Mac and use Time Machine as well. The only safe rule I know is that all drives fail at some point, but probably not all at the same time, if you keep them well firewalled. Nothing is permanent. Technology tends to be ridged and brittle. For that reason I use a variety of backups. I also have several galleries that have copies of some of my best work (in my mind only, I think). You can only fight the odds, you can't beat them.
     
  69. I would hate to count the times a client has come back to me and asked if I had a picture of 'Uncle Bob' because they needed a current picture for a 'Mass Card' and the picture was NOT one of my keepers. And I will tell you that in many ways, I feel great satisfaction in being able to provide it to them. Similar types of experiences happen 2-3 times a year.
     
  70. "backup after you edit (delete the losers)" you wrote, Andrew. Which already is more sensible - thus better - and still easy and cheap.​
    It's a suggestion yes, but it's not necessary. It's not as sensible if like me, time is money and easier and cheaper is always better than harder and more expensive. But that's just my workflow, everyone can take the comments and mold one they prefer. Like Steven said about Uncle Bob. I agree with him, I'd rather backup what you call rubbish only to find out later, it's not.
    The ability to store everything (and i mean everything) fast creates heaps of amalgamated rubbish and good stuff.​
    And some of us have no issue with the mix! We may not have any sorting to do (and if we do, that's another discussion all together).
    And remember that we are talking about a (paid) back up for rubbish: the original rubbish would still be on your own, local storage. Should you ever need it.​
    I don't pay any more for remote storage of what you are sure is rubbish. It's unlimited and at a fixed price. It takes more time to upload, I'm asleap when that's happening and could care less.
    So just because it is easy and cheap (?) doesn't mean it is sensible, necessary or better.​
    Indeed it does make it better. That's the entire point of setting up a workflow based on each persons needs and desires. Backing up 'everything' if you want to put that way is easier, faster and in terms of cost (for my workflow), less money in time spent and my hourly fee pays for a year of off site storage in less than an hour of time saved!. Someone with the time to upload only picks can if they so desire do that; this is their preferred workflow.
     
  71. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    It hasn't been mentioned yet, but although I'm in favour of dvd/optical burning, my concern is that they are not protected by encryption and just anyone can load them and use them...Maybe the milk crates with my cd's and dvd's will end up in an auction when I'm 80 and some whipper snapper will purchase and discover the next...
    I don't pay any more for remote storage of what you are sure is rubbish. It's unlimited and at a fixed price. It takes more time to upload, I'm asleap when that's happening and could care less.​
    Crashplan should run in the background all the time, just in case something should happen. Why do you wait and need to be asleep? Weak computer? You're just bragging about your broadband speed in another thread.
    I've been handling digital images for nearly 25 years and have never lost one I didn't want to lose...​
    I haven't lost any of my wife and pet dog photos, either. Keeping ones files is not hard...we're in a huge club of other successful data sitters.
    One media type is for back-up. Multiple mediums to be considered archived.
     
  72. Crashplan should run in the background all the time, just in case something should happen.​
    It does but it runs faster without any foreground processing which is exactly the case when I'm sleeping.
    You're just bragging about your broadband speed in another thread.​
    I wonder if you get it. If and when I'm working on the computer, I don't want CrashPlan in any way taking over the processes or uploading data and guess what, it doesn't. It does it when the computer is idle which is why the smart people at CrashPlan built the product that way.
    Multiple mediums to be considered archived.​
    All of which can, and as many here are suggesting, be just hard drives. But heck Eric, use whatever backup schema you wish. As someone who's admitted data loss in the past, those reading the various recommendations can take the advise given based on the poster providing it. My track record appears, based on your own writings, to be more solid.
    I haven't lost any of my wife and pet dog photos, either.​
    You sure about that or your previous statement is incorrect?
    Or, like myself, that has had a virus infect everything...​
    Seems you've lost data.
     
  73. I have seen Crashplan mentioned several times here and elsewhere so I investigated it. Based on the information the company gave me, it would take me 7-8 days to back up a single wedding and 3 years to create a Crashplan back up for all of my digital picture files, running full time 24/7. For my purposes, this really does not seem like a feasible path, even with the software running in the background. The company estimated I would get about 10 GB/day uploaded, an estimate that I have not confirmed yet.
    Even more problematic is whether Aperture libraries would come back intact as I don't think they play nice with FAT or NT disk structures. This issue would have to be seriously evaluated.
     
  74. Based on the information the company gave me, it would take me 7-8 days to back up a single wedding and 3 years to create a Crashplan back up for all of my digital picture files, running full time 24/7​
    There is the option of sending them a hard drive. Once the major uploading or in this case hard drive data is in place, you can upload on-site. In the case of a wedding and Crashplan, you may want to put all the hero images on a drive then just plug that in when you want to only upload that data. Or dedicate an upload folder, whatever. This is what I do with my Lightroom database and all associated images. I have one drive that's always on-line. But of course I back that up to other hard drives. After that backup to another drive, CrashPlan will recognize that specific drive and only backup the new data from it. So it is possible to pack up everything to CrashPlan which may be overkill for some, but only backup the most important data when you so desire. You could also just deadicate an old machine for CrashPlan and let it run all the time expect it will slow down the overall bandwidth for other machines uploading or downloading data. So you could again set a time for this to occur when you're away or sleeping.

    There are lots of options. Based on how much data you upload, you can decide what and how often that data needs to go to the cloud.
     
  75. Yes, you can send them a hard drive. It is limited to 1 TB and I think I was told it can only be done once per operating system. Anyway, 7-8 days to back up one wedding is not a practical solution for me. And I would encourage people to look very carefully at how well Crashplan or any other cloud back solution will work for you. This requires knowledge of how much data you generate over a given time period. I am sure for some, Crashplan is a viable option.
     
  76. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    If and when I'm working on the computer, I don't want CrashPlan in any way taking over the processes or uploading data and guess what, it doesn't. It does it when the computer is idle which is why the smart people at CrashPlan built the product that way.​
    Are you on a four year old mac book pro or something?
    Seems you've lost data.​
    How did you come to that conclusion?
    Steven, no one has suggested Crashplan be your only back up regime. After hdd duplicates and dvd's, Crashplan is my third option.
     
  77. Are you on a four year old mac book pro or something?​
    1 year old, top of the line Retina 15" MacBook Pro. Not that this has anything to do with anything but you asked.
    How did you come to that conclusion?​
    Must have been that other Eric who wrote:
    We can ask anyone that has had a hurricane or flood go through their town/state how they feel about only using hard drives. Or, like myself, that has had a virus infect everything....there's nothing worse than repeatedly building a new computer up, only to find your back up drives are also infected....and your thumb drives...and your CF cards.​
     
  78. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    Still, nothing that indicates that I lost data. Odd how you omit my words were I rave about dvd's saving my hide and not losing data. You're not even good at lying, Andrew. Here, just so we're clear, I said; DVD's and CD's dating back to 1997 saved my bum as well as the current gig I was working on. I was able to safely work on another terminal and my client didn't notice a thing.
    1 year old, top of the line Retina 15" MacBook Pro. Not that this has anything to do with anything but you asked.​
    No wonder you can't run Crashplan in the background. A laptop? You're kidding?
     
  79. Still, nothing that indicates that I lost data.​
    OK, you didn't lose data, you got a virus and infected everything boy genius. Good job.
    No wonder you can't run Crashplan in the background.​
    Never said that. You're not even good at lying. Runs in the bkgnd just fine.
    A laptop? You're kidding?​
    Yes Eric, I'm kidding. But I'm not kidding about the fact that in 25 years of doing this, never a lost file, never a virus. Unlike you.
     
  80. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    My mom can beat up your dad.
    Yes Eric, I'm kidding. But I'm not kidding about the fact that in 25 years of doing this, never a lost file, never a virus. Unlike you.​
    You don't do anything difficult, Andrew. I'm not sure why you are so proud that you are...normal? It's wonderful you have your family photos all these years and the various snaps you've used to learn Lightroom. Yeah, I caught a cold, I'm the only one in the world it's happened to, and it's all my fault. Unlike you, I played it smart with having more than one medium type and was able to recover from it.
     
  81. My mom can beat up your dad.​
    Considering he's been dead since 1998, you might be right this time Eric.
    You don't do anything difficult, Andrew.​
    You've suggested this in the past and I've pointed out, you don't have a clue as to what I do. But go ahead and continue to look foolish with such posts.
    Unlike you, I played it smart with having more than one medium type and was able to recover from it.​
    That's right Eric, I've never needed to recover in the first place and that's my point. For a guy with such a huge opinion of himself and who likes to belittle others without a clue about them, your track record is questionable.
    Maybe the milk crates with my cd's and dvd's will end up in an auction when I'm 80 and some whipper snapper will purchase and discover the next...​
    Troll is the word you're searching for Eric.
     
  82. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    That's right Eric, I've never needed to recover in the first place and that's my point.​
    You have to actually step out into the field and get a bit muddy once in awhile, Andrew. It's pretty easy to sit on the sidelines in an armchair, with a laptop, and talk a big game amongst those that are actually using their cameras and creating terabytes of data every year.
    What did you do when photography was film based? Work behind a counter at a lab and talk chemistry and sprocket holes?
     
  83. You have to actually step out into the field and get a bit muddy once in awhile, Andrew.​
    In your consistently poor logic, that means making the same kinds of mistakes as you Eric? Getting a virus and infecting everything? I think I'll pass on that suggestion.
    It's pretty easy to sit on the sidelines in an armchair, with a laptop, and talk a big game amongst those that are actually using their cameras and creating terabytes of data every year.​
    I suppose it is, I don't know. Unlike you, I make a good living working with other photographers implementing sound digital imaging workflows along with my own. That's been since 1994.
    What did you do when photography was film based? Work behind a counter at a lab and talk chemistry and sprocket holes?​
    Since you asked, and since you've gone on record making up silly assumptions of what I do or did, I'm happy to answer you (not that it will help in stopping you from continuing to make ridiculous assumptions and dragging the tread into a territory it doesn't need to go, hence your troll behavior). In the film days as you say, in the 1980's (when you were a child) and 1990's, I made a very good living in the competitive Los Angeles market shooting for clients like Disney, Apple, GTE, Microsoft, Forbes, to name a few. I was selling stock to Tony Stone when you were thinking about getting your first camera. I was on the board of the APA (you have any idea what that is Eric?). I was actually working for art directors and agencies making not taking (street) photo's to feed my family. I was one of only 50 photographers in the world to have full access to shoot the 1984 Olympics. My one and last stint as a sports photographer.

    Now you know. Not that it will keep you from continuing to make assumptions about what I did and now do, dragging posts into areas they need not go and making yourself look foolish with posts towards those who don't agree with you.
     
  84. "So screw it, get on with building a nas and just do it, you already have the hard drives" I said to myself after this thread yesterday. I visited ebay and have now won an auction for a Synology Diskstation 5 bay NAS.​
    Ops: http://www.photo.net/digital-darkroom-forum/00ckT5
     
  85. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    How about intentionally linking the PN community to another malicious website that has malware like you did the other day in this thread?
    http://www.photo.net/digital-darkroom-forum/00cjyZ
    You go blue in the face arguing no one needs dvd back up and that multiple hdd copies is good enough, and then point out now that a hdd nas backup regime is at risk and susceptible to malware? The number one nas system on the market falls to malware and Andrew is all for hard drive back-up....very strange logic. Following your advice would doom many. Or maybe you're being a gentleman and pointing out the nas system I just bought needs a firmware update before I get started. Thanks buddy. Fortunately though, even my cd's from 1997 still open. Pretty cool.
    But I only have to resort to dvd if both the two mirrored copies of hdd's are somehow useless. Here's one copy, the other is off-site like a good boy
     
  86. How about intentionally linking the PN community to another malicious website that has malware like you did the other day in this thread?
    http://www.photo.net/digital-darkroom-forum/00cjyZ
    Nothing wrong with that site on this end. Anyone else?
    You go blue in the face arguing no one needs dvd back up and that multiple hdd copies is good enough, and then point out now that a hdd nas backup regime is at risk and susceptible to malware?​
    Eric~ you simply can't understand cause and effect! Q.G and others tried to explain it, you simply didn't get it. You could have easily backed up a non virus set of data on any media. You could have backed up the virus to DVD or HD. It's timing. Your timing was really bad, you got a virus then stupidly backed it up everywhere but DVD. You could have backed the virus up to DVD first then all subsequent HD's but one. That would shoot holes into your so called premise but again, you simply donโ€™t get it, nor understand cause and effect.
    There's no point arguing, discussing, rationalizing, debating this with Eric~ he's a flat earth proponent in that respect. No matter how much carbon dating you supply, he's sure the earth is 6000 years old. Heck, he can't even navigate to a web page that would aid his understanding of how to fix the virus he self inflicted on himself, he claims it's got a virus or something. He's dismissive of anyone who doesn't tell him he's absolutely correct (he rarely is as illustrated in both posts on backing up data), troll-like in behavior, insulting and best of all, just flat out hilarious to read.
    Dealing with posts from Eric~ is a bit like driving past a car crash. You find yourself slowing down to see the carnage. Eric~ is that car wreck and these posts go on and on because the more he writes, the more foolish he appears so for entertainment value alone, you just have to keep posting to see what rubbish he comes up with next. I want to move on but like that car wreck, what new carnage will he inflict on himself next?
    He loves to speak for everyone too. But ask him a question to support his assertions, it never arrives. And yet, he thinks he's some workflow and digital expert, with no chops. Check his bio. It all boils down to a guy who really has no self esteem. That's why he has to make so many assumptions insulting others as he's done in this thread. He's really looking inward. I almost feel sorry for him, almost.

    OK Eric~ what amusing text do you have for us before you again get a thread locked down?
     
  87. Or maybe you're being a gentleman and pointing out the nas system I just bought needs a firmware update before I get started. Thanks buddy.​
    You are welcome (I figured with your track record, you need all the help you can get).
     
  88. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    Not only do you have to get the last word in, but you have to do it twice. And 35 mins is a new record. You normally wait two days to come back and make another entry after your previous one.
     
  89. Andrew, Eric, these discussions are very informative for us readers, but become uncomfortable when the arguments turn 'ad hominem'. Let's try to stick to the subject matter and win only by good argument, preferably citing supporting empirical evidence. I know this will sound patronising, and I apologise for that. It's easy for someone on the sidelines to say 'calm down, guys.'
    My 2c worth is that we should not focus on the medium, but the properties of the medium. HDD is fast, cheap, convenient and heavy. BDR is slow, cheap, light and waterproof. Also HDD is 'write many' and BDR is 'write once'.
    My main concern is 'propagating corruption' as defined by the American Society of Media:
    Photographers http://www.dpbestflow.org/backup/backup-overview
    because this has happened to me many times, not due to viruses, I should add. Write once media are one of the most practical ways to avoid this. Those who use HDDs as the sole technology for backup are highly likely to be at risk of propagated corruption.
    And for those who still have concerns, read the whole article, because it is encyclopaedic, and covers all reasonable concerns, points out the risks of optical as well as HDD backups, and reminds us all that for most people, it's a question of cost v risk, not a question of whether HDD+HDD is better than HDD+Optical - they are both dangerous compared to more expensive methods.
    In case it helps, here's what I do, which is HDD+HDD+Cloud+Offsite_VPN+BDR, and I find cost effective:
    1 - Main machine has working storage on internal HDD.
    2 - Overnight mirroring software mirrors the working storage to an internal HDD on another computer (the 'server') in the office. Many workstations could all do this to one central server, see 3 below.
    This means at most one day can be lost. Also gives a simple recovery mechanism for up to 24h if you mess something up.
    3 - The 'server' runs cloud backup software such as carbonite, crashplan, etc and continuously backs up the entire set.
    This gets data offsite at least every 24 hours, and lets you back up a set of computers for one subscription.
    4 - The 'server' also backs up to another computer offsite over Hamachi (cheap VPN), whether a friend's, in another office of the company, or a family computer. Simple 'I backup yours, you backup mine' strategies are popular.
    This protects against the cloud storage provider being unreliable just when you need to recover an entire backup. Just google horror stories from any cloud provider you care to mention.
    4 - On a regular basis, typically monthly to be honest for me, I back up anything not already on BDR to a series of 50Gb BDR discs for write once backup, to avoid creeping corruption. I do this on 2x discs, one for on-site and one for off-site. Anyone who claims this is quick is cleverer than me - it is a pain and takes me a few minutes setting up each disc. But I think it's worth it.
    BDR is cheap to mail, or reliable once thrown into a shoulder bag, unlike HDD with moving platters. Also waterproof.
    I store one set of BDR in a fire safe on site, and in a fire safe off site.
    When a new optical format becomes available with much higher density I copy all the old onto the new format. I copied 700Mb CDRs to 4Gb DVDs, did not copy 4gb to 9gb DVDs, did not copy to 25GB BDR, did copy to 50GB BDR, and will wait probably for 200Gb BDR to become effective before doing another copy. This was not as time consuming as I worried, and was only every few years, and also flushed out any bad discs.
    I've been doing this for years. Still lose the occasional file. Nothing is perfect ;)
    J
     
  90. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    Andrew, Eric, these discussions are very informative for us readers, but become uncomfortable when the arguments turn 'ad hominem'.​
    Please complain! Numerous complaints have been made to the mods and admins over Andrew Rodney's behavior but nothing changes. I was sick of it as well last Spring as I truly cared for this community. I suggested this forum years ago in a Leica forum thread as digital was beginning to flourish and the analog film people didn't care for the conversations that were beginning to happen. Tony and Josh, who moderated the Leica Forum, flew the idea past Brian M and voila, we had a digital darkroom. I'm kind of attached to it...
    Great post and agree 100% with your workflow. Here's another thread on dvd back up that might be of interest? Sadly though, Andrew starts into me again on it as well and resulted in another thread being closed.
    http://www.photo.net/digital-darkroom-forum/00cjyZ
     
  91. I suggested this forum years ago in a Leica forum thread as digital was beginning to flourish and the analog film people didn't care for the conversations that were beginning to happen.Tony and Josh, who moderated the Leica Forum, flew the idea past Brian M and voila, we had a digital darkroom. I'm kind of attached to it...​
    That's interesting. Your bio here says you became a member on October 04, 2003.
    I've been member since June 25, 2001 and my first post was, you guessed it, the forum you say you suggested (digital imaging which became this forum). Back on Jun 25, 2001; 03:26 p.m:
    http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?topic_id=23&msg_id=001To8
    Sorry to go OT, but facts are often copiously missing from some people's posts.
     
  92. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    I've been on PN since 1997
     
  93. I've been on PN since 1997​
    OK Eric, my bad and that of this site which shows on your bio page:
    A member of the photo.net community since October 04, 2003.
    And your first post to a forum on that date.
    But the facts are, 831 days before that date, there was a digital imaging forum when I made my first post. So if your point above was to complain about just me, because you had some input in the creation of such a forum, it seems rather disingenuous. I am pleased you and Mr. Gore invented the internet though ;-)
     

Share This Page