Are you staying with dSLR's? No mirrorless?

Discussion in 'Nikon' started by mark_stephan|2, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Mirrorless is probably going to "win out" if nothing else comes along.

    I remember a huge debate about whether Beta or VHS was going to dominate.......
    I think we can figure out the answer to that question.
    Landrum Kelly likes this.
  2. I think the promise was not represented correctly.

    While the FF mirrorless camera itself might be lighter, the lens is still a FF lens and has to cover a FF image circle, so they can't make it much smaller. And with faster/longer lenses, the majority of the weight will be the lens.
    And if you do like me and use a FF lens on an APS-C camera, there is no savings on the lens weight.

    As I see it, the only way to get size/weight reduction are:
    • Use the smaller/lighter consumer grade lenses, rather than the larger/heavier pro grade lenses.
    • Smaller sensor format.
      • Smaller lighter camera.
      • Smaller sensor requires a smaller image circle from the lens.
      • Crop factor advantage for long lens. With a 2x crop, rather than a 600mm FF lens, you use the smaller/lighter 300mm m4/3 lens.
    • Materials
      • Carbon fiber and similar in place of heavy metal.
      • New design/technology, like the fernel lens elements, to reduce the weight of the glass elements.
    Landrum Kelly likes this.

  3. While on my trip, I got snapbridge working and wound up enjoying the added functionality it gave. The 2MB files are certainly not a true full backup, but they do look pretty good and do provide a measure of protection should the Z6 card fail.
  4. Like some of you, I am a senior citizen.

    The lighter m4/3 kit lets me stay mobile and carry my photo gear.
    Whereas the heavier gear limits my mobility. While I can carry it, I can't carry it for any great amount of time or over any great distance.

    I thought about travel.
    On the go, every day for 2 to 3 weeks.
    I decided that I needed a lighter travel kit than my dSLR.

    To keep the size and weight down for travel, I have also compromised in the lens and camera.
    My GP travel lens is a consumer grade lens, not a pro lens. It was "good enough" for the job.
    The travel camera is also not pro grade, but "good enough" for the job.
    The EM1 + Panasonic-Lumix 12-60 is about 45% less weight than my D7200 + 18-140
    If I use the even lighter EM10, the kit is more than 50% less weight than the D7200 kit.
  5. With my Z, I can use the Voigtlander 40/1.4 and Canon 100/3.5 Leica mount lenses I have. Those lenses are tiny and light, and not too much of a compromise optically if one needs to pack very light. The Z to M adapter does not add much bulk to the camera, either.

    I have not found a small wide yet to go with those two lenses. The Voigtlander 21/f4 is tempting, but is reported to not work well on the Sony A7 series. It might be OK on the Nikon, but the Voigtlander 25/4 I have is not that great on the Z6 so I hesitate to pay money to try one out. Not much point in a wide much bigger/heavier than the 21/4, since the 14-30Z is fairly light. My biggest beef with carrying the 14-30 is the front diameter. The Z6 is much nicer to carry with the 40/1.4 on it. Hoping Nikon or someone makes a decent pancake wide for the Z soon.

    After that long trip, I understand the appeal of the M4/3 system and will evaluate options if I go on another similar journey. On the other hand, I did use the high ISO capability of the Z6 extensively while on my trip.
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
  6. I owned the 21/4 - already a pain to correct on a APS-C sensor (NEX-6 in my case) and downright impossible on an A7; I doubt things are better on the Z6.. Try the new 21/3.5 - but that's with a Sony-mount (though there are adapters available). I traded the 21/4 for the 21/1.8 - but that's not a small lens and it has some rather pronounced field-curvature too.
  7. It's a little late for me to consider staying with a DSLR, since my Nikon bodies and lenses went on to greener pastures over five years ago. I decided to move on in 2013, buying a Leica M9 and a few lenses to complement the one's I had since the 1960's. When the Sony A7ii came out, I jumped ship again, and have never looked back. I am a technical person, fussy about results. The Sony gave me the freedom to experiment never possible on a DSLR, much less a rangefinder camera. It does what I need it to do, as well as needs I never knew before. The only sports I shoot are things my kids and grandkids participate in. If you told me which anniversary the last Super Bowl represented, that would be the same number I've missed watching. Notwithstanding, my A9 can track a ball in the air or a 90 lb Golden running after it. The dog is happy to chase a ball without being paid (or making ungrateful gestures).
    yardkat and Landrum Kelly like this.
  8. Sounds like you are on a cross road. First of all, age 63 is not old. It's the age that many amateur photographers breath a sigh of relief from career ambition, time and financial constraints. So camera clubs nationwide have a lot of retired people who enjoy photography, buying new equipment, etc.

    For mirrorless, Nikon offers the Z system. Like Gary, I have tapped into micro four-thirds for quite a few years now. What I like about it is the compactness. I can easily carry a focal range from super-wide to the equivalent of 800mm in a bag that does not look so ridiculously gigantic.
  9. I have and use both, as a wedding photographer . All my life I was in a quest for the "right setup" , the right tool for the job ...,and mirrorless give me a very important feature :
    "what you see is what you get". Since I don't like to change lenses often , I use the following pairing :
    Nikon D4s + 70-200/2,8 - at church and restaurant
    Fuji XT3 + 50-140/2,8 (70-200 equiv. in FF) - outside and "trash the dress"
    Sony a7iii + 16-35/2,8 - outside, church and restaurant (without flash)
    Nikon D750, D800 + 24-70/2,8 - only restaurant, with CLS flashes (4)
    My favorites : Fuji XT3 and Nikon D4s
    For my personal pictures I use Fuji with diffrent lenses (16/1,4 - 23/1,4 - 50/2). Why ? Outstanding quality (both camera and lenses), lightness, and amazing colors science.
    Landrum Kelly likes this.
  10. Since we're quoting ages... 45 (mid-life crisis territory). Currently on a D850 with D810 backup, and IR D90, plus an F5.

    The current mirrorless bodies would be a step back for most of the shooting I do, mostly in terms of buffer and viewfinder response, although they certainly keep the D810 honest. I have slight envy for AF speed in live view shooting, although rolling shutter hurts that option when I use it on the D850; once I've got a mechanical shutter I'm no longer silent, although the D810 is quieter (or at least less intrusive) than the D850. I would like more accurate AF wide open, but maintain that Nikon could do a contrast-detect confirmation mode on a dSLR if they wanted to. I don't see myself getting a great deal from an EVF that I couldn't get from the rear LCD - but my only EVF body is a V1, so I'm not exactly current. Eye detect AF is certainly something I have envy of, but I have to remind myself that I don't actually shoot people all that often, especially ones that are moving a lot; I'm not entirely convinced that Nikon couldn't take a stab at it with the D850's meter.

    Nikon are clearly going to push the Z series harder than their dSLRs, so I expect the disadvantages to disappear - especially when it comes to buffer, which is presumably a trivial change. Size doesn't bother me so much, and while I'll take all the optical quality I can get, there are some pretty competitive dSLR lenses for the most part, and I'm not that desperate for f/1.2.

    If I wanted to go DX (seriously, not just IR) for portability, I'd probably be looking at Fuji, who seem to be more all-in on mirrorless APS-C than anyone else. Currently an RX100 is my pocket option, although mine actually seems to have stopped charging, so I might have to look at a replacement (my Coolpix A is not as flexible); as I know from my minimal micro 4/3 collection (one old body, two lenses) once it doesn't fit in my pocket, I'm generally happy to take a dSLR, so I'm in no hurry to give Fuji my money.
    yardkat and Landrum Kelly like this.
  11. Nor me.
    To wander waaay off topic.
    I keep seeing praise for the colour rendition of Fuji's X-trans sensors, but frankly I'm not seeing it.

    The 'comparometer' samples at Imaging Resource, which I've grown to trust, show a distinctly different and not terribly well-defined colour rendering from Fuji's X-trans cameras. By not well-defined I mean that the distinction between colour shades isn't too clear. Yellows, pinks and red shades in particular tend to (to my eye) merge to one rendering with very little subtlety. Not so with any other Bayer matrix sensor.

    Also, the much-touted improved sharpness only seems to work orthogonally. Diagonals, which are much more common in a natural scene, are rendered with noticeable jaggies at the pixel level. Small niggles, but niggles nonetheless.

    That aside, Fuji's ergonomics, appearance and build-quality definitely do appeal. But really, a camera is for looking through not at.
    marcel_carey likes this.
  12. I am staying with the DSLR for now, but I am open to a mirrorless camera as a backup or a future upgrade. As I shoot a lot of birds, I still prefer an OVF and the (admittedly decreasing) advantage that the DSLR AF has for fast moving subjects. Mirrorless have probably both caught up and passed DSLR AF-C performance by the time I will look for a new camera.
    yardkat likes this.
  13. Mark, I have a refurbished Fuji X100F that is a DX equivalent. It has a fixed lens and a leaf shutter that will allow me to crush sun light with a wide open aperture and a digital neutral density filter while at the same time shooting with a flash with an extremely quite mechanical shutter option at 4000th in broad day light. It has limitations but I am having a lot if fun with it using a remote flash. I have all I could wish for with Nikon DSLRs but think that mirrorless is inevitable. That said with my investment in Nikon DSLR glass I would hope for a level of compatibility with my expensive long glass before I move to Nikon mirrorless. I would love to have a dead silent camera with the equivalent of what Olympus calls Pro Capture to photograph Big Foot, Grover Krantz rest in peace. Only fully electronic cameras will meet that need. I hope Nikon will continue too satisfy my needs. I love the current system that I own. So while I am excited about the future and not too stuck in convention I am still waiting to see how Nikon evolves before I commit to a Nikon mirrorless system. Additionally the ergonomics of cameras that are too small will have to be addressed. There has always been a Nikon feel that I liked. My Fuji is small and lovable because I am still in the honeymoon period with it but I hope Nikon will come through with future designs that are larger with the kind of ergonomics that we usually associate with Nikon bodies. They can keep making small stuff but I cant imagine balancing a body the size of a pack of cigarettes on the end of a 600mm f4 lens. They would have to harden the body and post a large sign on the camera not to use the body while lifting the lens as well as move the location of or extend the tripod foot to balance things out. Sadly we may be close to the point where the future Nikon D6 is the evolutionary equivalent to the F6 that was at the end of a noble bloodline. Maybe there is something in the number 6, think about it. Finally the evolution of Nikon DSLRs has reminded me that there is always a waiting period. In the mid 2000s many were preparing to dump Nikon. The 2008 Beijing olympics where I saw a majority of black lenses at a major sporting event for he first time showed that Nikon could come through in a big way. So here’s hoping and waiting. Stay frosty.
  14. Absolutely none.

    I'm a wedding shooter and I can't even fathom using anything but my Canon SLR's and lenses. 2-card slots are also a non-negotiable when doing weddings or other paid shoots. If it don't have dual cards......sayonara baby.

    Like someone else said above, I don't like EVF's either. I checked out a Sony A7 Mark something at Adorama and I thought the EVF was lagging just a that system costs a fortune to build. The latest Canon (and Nikon) mirrorless offerings are cool though, but they only have one card slot.....not for professional use.

    If and when I go on vacation, I'll still take one of my spare SLR's and pop a kit zoom on it.
  15. When my D750 bites the dust I will probably get a mirrorless system. I am leaning toward Fuji for many reasons, some of which don't make a lot of sense. I have friends that have them and like their results, I like the retro look and knobs, I like the way Fuji has firmware updates to not only fix problems but to add features, I like the selection of lenses and the quality/price ratio and I don't need full frame or large files. I am thinking I will get a used XT-2 and if I like the experience, get a used XT-3 when the new XP- Pro is released. If the second generation Nikon Z series look good, may think about getting one of those.
    yardkat and Landrum Kelly like this.
  16. I chatted to Park Cameras about this a year or so back, when getting my 70-200; I noted that the Nikon display was substantially less prominent in their store than the Fuji display, and since they're one of the larger UK dealers (having both a 400mm FL and F-mount 120-300mm Sigma in stock being a clue) this was a bit of a shocker to me for Nikon's marketing. They told me that there were a lot of Fuji samplers - but also a lot of people coming back to dSLRs after trying them.

    Fuji do make some Bayer bodies. X-Trans should affect fine detail; whether it affects actual colour rendition is another matter, and I'd hope more down to the raw converter, although I know nothing about the Fuji filters (and the number of different filters in use - I could believe the claim that an RG/GB Bayer often has more than one green in it). I'm sure they have their own set of different problems - as do Sony and Canon; nobody's made a perfect camera yet.

    Some things, though, are down to the current bodies rather than mirrorless as a whole. Dual slots being one, obviously. They'll come as the lines round out. I can believe Nikon will get around to making a mirrorless body that's enough of an improvement over my D850 that I'll want one - though they haven't yet. It'll have to be pretty good, though. Meanwhile, when I next have disposable income, I'm happy to continue adding F-mount lenses in the short term.
    Landrum Kelly likes this.
  17. 31 here, and more cameras than sense.

    Lord willing, I think that I will likely live long enough that the writing is on the wall for the high end SLRs/DSLRs.

    With that said, I have no immediate plans to switch. My D800/D600 pairing(augmented by a D3s for when I need speed) works great for me right now as go-to DSLRs, and I also have others for specific purposes. Since I still shoot a lot of film, system continuity and being able to use the same lens kit for both helps me a lot(although that doesn't keep me from using alternate film systems, like my Hasselblad, RB67, or even Olympus OM these days).

    A Z6 or Z7 would save me about 300g over the D600 in terms of body weight, but the weight is still there for lenses and in many cases that far exceeds the contribution from the body.
  18. To me, the question of DSLR v. Mirrorless is not an either-or question. I have a D850, D500 and D800e as well as a Fuji X-T2 and a Sony RX100 v5. I grab the camera depending on my mood and intended use.
    Gary Naka likes this.
  19. IF i would switch , or start with, mirrorles, chances would be verry slim that it would be Nikon..
    XQD cards are still hard to find and too expensive over here, and Nikon's wirelesss connectivity is not to good either. so both resting on bad dicisions

    In addition Nikon does not really care about macro/micro photography anymore in the recent years, no new development, and still the old extention rings which have never been improved making a lot of ppl dependend on off-brand stuff like Kenko and the likes.

    Nikon seems to make a lot of dicissions wich make the brand less interresting for high end amateur's ..
    I do not like to have to say this since i have been shooting Nikon for almost 40 years now, but it is what it is i guess
  20. Actually the type of mirrorless that makes the most sense to me is the digital view camera. Of course Sinar already made something like that.

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