Are We In The Business Of Selling Prints?

Recently a good friend of mine was married. Her new husband's family wanted to

use a large studio rather than my services. That's Ok since the temperature

was about 115 degrees F!

 

I looked at the on-line proof gallery yesterday and the photographer did a

decent job. None of the photos were adjucted in PS, most were too far away

from the subjects, but, it was Ok, but, not exciting.

 

Anyway, the bride and groom received nothing!

 

They now have 30 days to buy prints. The studio website keeps clicking down

the days! Any guests who view the site have the same time line to buy prints.

 

The lowest cost print is $15 for a 4x5! The highest is about $300 for one

20x24 inkjet. An 11x14 is about $200.

 

For me, there's something really wrong with this approach.

 

My approach to wedding photography is to document the entire event for a set

fee up-front, provide a proof album, proof prints, a print-ready DVD, a music

photoshow DVD, and the couple can have reprints made from the print ready DVD

that is included.

 

Any thoughts on these two ways of dealing with marketing?

My initial thought is that if they are in fact a large studio, it probably means that they are getting a lot of business, and that their business model is quite profitable for them. Unless I were very satisfied with my current quantity and quality of clients and consequent income, I'd be trying to figure out 1) what the other studio is doing that's working so well for them, and 2) how I might apply it to make my own business more successful. If I am satisfied with the way my business is going, then I wouldn't be overly concerned with how someone else conducts their business.

You are being sarcastic right? I want to sell every print a la carte if i can. I think that the

photographers that give away the photos on a cd are only hurting the business. After you

work hard on a job to make great images the last thing i want to do is give it away. It is like

working on commission, the harder i work the more they buy. It is a great insentive. The

photographers who give away the images usually are mediocre at best. Or they are insecure

in their value as a creative artist. The only way this would work of course would be you

charged a huge creative fee for all the files, but that is hard unless you are a brand named

photographer.

Michael,

 

I appreciate your reply because I am NOT being sarcastic! I think that the studio pricing model I presented above amounts to little more than financially raping the couple and their families.

 

I want to provide a product to my clients that is holistic, and that is financially agreeable to me and my client.

 

I do not want to nickle and dime my clients for print after print after print, or go after the guests, or put time limits on purchases.

 

Think about it!

 

I realize that this is the "Studio Way" of doing things, but I think that there are other option.

 

I am pictured in one of the photos at the reception. It is a nice photo of me with a few of my friends. Am I going to buy one? No way.

No one is being forced to buy prints. You trivialize the term "rape" by using it in this context.

 

Is there any indication that the couple was deceived about the pricing of prints or about the studio's sales model?

I understand you point and i can respect that and it probably practiced by alot of people. For

me it is not the route and not the route for high end studios. This only works if you are

targeting people with money. I don't want to squeeze the lower income but rather be like

robin hood and let the wealthy buy to there hearts content.

Mike,

 

No one was decieved to my knowledge. I did not say that.

 

I simply think that approach to sales is an approach that I am uncomfortable using for ethical reasons, and have thought so since I began doing this.

 

I have a different way of doing it. I just wanted some comments, and I appreciate yours.

 

$15 for a 4x5!

California has taxes on a business, right? That photography business has to pay 'overhead' to stay open, so if it can collect 'soul-less' sales from the Internet, it is up to them to allow a 30-day window to order.

 

 

 

 

Just like the 'fine' studios at Wal-mart, K-mart, etc., they advertise a crazy price to get folks in the door. It is business....and if you sell twenty 4x6s at $3.00 each, you make some profit. If you can manage to land a good project at $3 per for 1,800 [4x6] prints, you can enjoy paying some of your taxes, too.

 

 

 

 

If the customer decides to use any studio, it is their choice (some folks do not want to sit at Sam's Club or the drug store trying to figure out which print goes to who after the wedding.)

Todd, when you claim that one of your competitors is "financially raping" clients and imply that they are unethical, you run a risk of being sued for libel. While it's certainly fair to say that you think your business model presents a better value to customers, it is highly unprofessional (and ethically questionable) for you to be describing your competition in such loaded, negative terms.

say no evil, see no evil, hear no evil

I wouldn't be happy if when beginning to qualify photographers for my daughter's weddings (too young now but some day), this mode was presented as an option.

 

I think the studio gambles on the families blowing their budgets and perhaps runs a low budget effort to cover their rears. It gives the customers, even if wrong/illegal, an incentive to cheat and copy, etc. I think there are other negatives (no pun) involved with the approach as well.

 

And, if you really can't afford a lot or don't need/want all that much, there are other approaches which might turn out better (or might not). Just don't like this approach these days.

Mike: "...you run a risk of being sued for libel."

 

Not likely, since he didn't name the studio, and we don't even know for sure what side of the world Todd's friend got married on.

 

I agree with Todd in that I think the prices quoted are too high, but it is a free market, and most sellers are willing to charge what they know buyers are willing pay. Personally, I would do a better job of shopping before the event.

 

However, I think the days of selling prints a la carte are numbered. It's been a good run, but it is doomed to decline. It may be that the days of making a complete living off of wedding photography will be coming to an end as well. Hard to tell for sure. There is too much competition, offering too many options, that too many people are wanting for things to remain the way they have been. And as all the digital newcomers get better & better, even the prices for high-end weddings will start to decline. Some of this will even be driven by better software and better hardware, making the whole business easier and easier.

 

Anybody thinking this market is anywhere close to stable has their head in the sand. It's like all the mom & pop stores that died when supermarkets took over. You either change or get into some special niche to hang onto, and those are going to be hard to find.

 

Let the revolution begin! :)

Wrong to you or me, but not to them and they don't care what you think. Nice guys finish last Todd. And yes I agree that after shooting a wedding it feels better to me to hand over a tangible product of my labor, rather than a $0.10 piece of digital plastic.

 

As for seemingly excessive pricing, hmmmm where are you buying gas these days. I know people who charge the 15 bucker for 4X6's and in spite of their rather valid reasons I think this is high no matter what. When I have mentioned this in conversation it raises eyebrows and chokes the room.

 

I ask, what would you pay for a 4X6? I always get told no more than 5 bucks. My informal surveys indicate that at $5.00 they would be apt to buy more than just one print. 10 4X6's at $5.00 a pop is $50.00 so in your mind ask what is the cost of the print to you.

 

I shot a nice simple wedding in July and have now received $200 in reprint sales at $5.00 a whack. I know if they were 15 bucks I would have taken in next to nothing.

 

I have seen you post in here for over a year and yu sound like a fair and honest guy who wants people satisfied with what you provide.

Stick to what you want to provide for you fees and don't sweat the tactics of the Shyster Studio. Use that studio as an example with future clients.

 

Just think if the Big studios are getting what you mentioned why should anyone worry about digital ruining wedding photography when your good friend was willing to take it in the shorts by the studio.

 

Sounds like there are people who will pay for services above Uncle Bob's

Michael: "I think that the photographers that give away the photos on a cd are only hurting the business."

 

You're probably right Michael, but there are so many people offering this it is comming to be expected in some markets, and will undoubtedly become popular everywhere someday. It is certainly not going back to the way it was. The other way to look at this is that some new photographers with a different business model in mind are offering something that technically savy buyers want. If you don't do it, somebody else will.

 

This isn't much different than big box stores eating up small retailers. Not many people in the business like it, but they are offering a business model that is more competitive, And in the increased competition there are fewer and fewer profit dollars to go around. These kinds of marketing changes have been happening for centuries, and are just getting more frequent in recent decades. Much of it is driven by technology, but some of it is just finding a better marketing tool.

 

The change in wedding photography is certainly going to be slower in some areas than in others, and some upscale segments of the market will be able to resist it for quite a while, but change, it will. The rich will always pay well for good service, so some things willl hang on for a long time. All in all, this is a real lousy time to get started in wedding photography if you want to make serious money.

Technology is rapidly redesigning many industries almost on a daily basis. This is

obviously one of them. The challenge is one of reinventing how business is done as new

abilities become available.

 

IMO, print sales after the fact will become mostly the domain of on-line suppliers. Upload

to a service, notify the participants, collect money with less effort than doing it yourself.

 

Like Todd, I chose to provide a turn-key operation, but not out of kindness as much as

wanting to concentrate on being a photographer not a custom lab making prints for 50

different people. I have other far more profitable endeavors to spend my time on.

 

So it becomes a study in time management. Do I want to make $200. on prints, or $2,000.

shooting?

 

We build in the total profit margin up-front and have automated as much of the after-

shoot process as possible. Typically, an entire package is done 3-5 days after the

wedding. 50% of these jobs include an album. The remainder get everything up to the

album ... and the price is based on amount of hours we shoot.

 

The real challenge is one of positioning your services and up-front sales. Those bigger

studios have this down pat and is the reason they continue to make profits. It's run as a

business not a charity.

<i>Mike: "...you run a risk of being sued for libel."<P>

Not likely, since he didn't name the studio, and we don't even know for sure what side of the world Todd's friend got married on. </i><P>

I agree that it's very unlikely in this case, but Todd did identify himself as a direct competitor to the studio when he stated, "Her new husband's family wanted to use a large studio rather than my services."<P>

I think it's troubling that some professional photographers would call another studio "shysters" or other very-negative terms simply because that studio follows a different business model. Couldn't I argue that any photographer who charges $400 per hour, in advance, without providing any prints, is some kind of con man? I mean, the couple might not even like their wedding pictures, and they'd still be out a few thousand dollars, and since the photographer has already made a big chunk of money, why should he care whether the couple's happy?<P>

Of course, I'm not actually making that argument. If the clients are informed up-front about the pricing structure the photographer uses, and they are satisfied with what they will be getting for their money, there's nothing unethical going on.

i agree that a couple should know what they're getting themselves into. However, i know that when i was looking for photographers for my own wedding (5 months ago), anyone who wasn't going to provide me with a CD was immediately out of consideration. For two reasons

-i didn't like paying someone several hundred dollars for 5 hours of work and then having to pay for my photos all over again when i actually want to have some. Now i realise there's overheads and editing etc., but it just seemed like a bad deal to me. Plus, i was getting very fed up with the whole wedding industry seemingly charging at least twice what the service would cost in a non-wedding branch. Now, i also realise that wedding photography is more demanding than many other shoots, but at the time it just felt like everyone was trying to milk me for all i was worth, and i didn't like it.

 

- we were on a tight budget. I think you have to decide what sort of budget of weddings you are targeting. If you target the rich, do whatever you want as long as you're getting business, it must mean some people can afford you! But i think there's a significant market of weddings around 6000-10000 $ range - however, if you imagine the lifestyle of your potential customers, you can imagine they won't feel happy about the prospect of paying $100 for a print. So, even if they spend the same money in the end, say $1000, they'll probably be happier getting your work on the day and then a CD with eveything, rather than having to choose prints at $50 or $100 each!

 

Just my opinion...

Think of it this way Todd, It serves them right for hiring that studio and not you; I would just laugh at them. You would be surprised at what people spend there money on. Everyone worries about Uncle Bob, guess what people like Name brands, close, cars, ect�. I always laugh at people who are willing to throw money away, those are the clients we like:)

He had the opportunity to find out about these prices in advance and still made the booking so he is at fault for the prices he has let himself into, not the studio.

 

It isn't wrong if people are willing to pay for it. Put it this way. A studio has a lot of costs, wages to pay, bills, rent or morgage, overheads, etc. I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to justify what are pretty run of the mill reprint prices for an upmarket studio. Here in the UK those prices are pretty normal and if people are willing to pay it, and they do, then it is justified.

 

Photography is a luxury in life period. It isn't an essential. Therefore if you advertise a price and people think that it is worth it enough to book you then no one can complain. Is a Rolls Royce overpriced. Yup. DOes anyone complain? Not when you can get a Bentley cheaper, if you choose to pay a price for a luxury commodity then that is your choice. The whole fashion industry is built on that premise, there is no way that a T-shirt is worth more because is has Calvin Klein written on it, but it sells for a silly amount more than the same T-shirt without the lettering.

 

If there is a market share and people are willing to pay for it then why not?

You're arguing about the wrong argument. The studio runs it's business the way it wants. Your friend chose the studio because they wanted to use their services and prices, not yours. Whether it's a cd, 4x6, 8x10, or 30x40, it's your work that you are selling, not the piece of paper. If your friend thought that they were getting raped, they would have gone to you. It's strange why photographers today are even thinking about print size. The same amount of work goes into a 4x6 or an 8x10. If you want your friend's business, start thinking about the amount of work you do, not the price of the piece of paper. I will assume that the photo, whether 4x6 or 8x10 or other size, will have your QUALITY work on it.

I agree with Mike that name calling by one photographer to another photographer is not appropriate. I also could have used any studio that makes it's income primarily by selling post-wedding prints as an example. I'm not naming any studios because most large studios work this way. I worked part-time for such a studio a few years ago, and was told never to take any photograph that can't be sold after the wedding.

 

Even though I like to make some good money photographing weddings, I think that the total cost of weddings is much too expensive, and for many couples, it is a financial disaster.

 

I like to make a decent profit and give a good price to the client. However, I'm independent and, as mentioned, I don't have the overhead of a large studio.

 

I realize that large studios need to stay in business and make a good profit, and need to sell accordingly.

 

I'm just wondering if the post wedding album and print sales business plan will continue, or if other approaches will emerge.

This is yet another example of the "devaluation of professional photography". I would suggest that anyone that is serious about professional pricing view the Photovision training which featured Larry Peters providing a formula for pricing your work and your prints. To say that this studio is "wrong" is overly simplistic and does not take into account different pricing schemes and business models.

 

Are we in the business of selling prints? Yeah, some of us are.

and some of us aren't, and not because we're "insecure", "mediocre" or out to "ruin the business"

 

like a broken record I would like to point out that we don't all live and work in the same place, tapping the same market etc.

 

I don't sell prints or albums. I feel very secure about my work and I"m not out to ruin the business.

 

my clients are all from other countries. We never meet before the wedding and we never meet again afterward. The logistics of dealing with print sales or album sales is just not practical, not to mention the fact that, like marc, I can make considerably more money shooting commercial work during the week than I ever could selling 8x10s.

 

and david S, I agree that the photographic print in general has been devalued, but it's not because a few wedding photographers started selling cheap prints, other way around.

 

digital cameras are only half of the "digital revolution". cheap, high quality, repeatable prints are the other.

 

My mother has worn out her little epson picturemate from over use. Everyone I know (non photographers) either makes very nice prints at home from their digital cameras (with little or no skill) or has very nice prints made online.

 

It's cheap, it's convenient and people are getting tired of paying wedding photographers $35 for an 8x10. it'd be one thing if the average wedding photographer was selling amazing prints, but they're not. they're selling prints from the same online labs that people are using for their vacation snaps and the client knows it.

I tried to ask a question in a somewhat provative way in order to stimulate discussion but seem to have succeeded only in arousing a bit of anger. Sorry!

 

Yes, I would like to explore "...different pricing schemes and business models." That's the purpose of my question.

 

And I would like to know more about the Larry Peters presentation. Where can that be viewed?

Todd, I think the question must be asked, why did they go the way of

Studio Big Buck.

 

They selected a less personal, costlier, less tangibles for the money, type of business. Not to mention stiff print costs (objectionable or not) and a program induces sales.

 

Could this be that the Studio Big Buck appears to look like more than a freelance guy working from his house.

 

Knowing what people really want is a tough science.