Are we holding on to our M film Leicas?

Discussion in 'Leica and Rangefinders' started by luigi v, Oct 27, 2006.

  1. I have noticed that there is less and less good new-ish used stuff on the market recently, both M cameras
    and lenses, and if there is it is pretty high in price, except for those items that less people want or are
    more common like M6s-but even those are not as many as they use to turn up-. Plenty of cheap
    fraudolent auctions though to make it up, and not only from China (Germany, Italy, UK and Canada the
    worst offenders from my "browsing" experience on line...). Were we not expecting a drop in price for used
    bodies (may be not so much for lenses) with the coming of the Digital M8, especially for M bodies? I have
    seen a slight decrease in value for M7s and M6s but all other Ms, including M2-M3 and the recent MP are
    holding pretty well their used value.
    Is it because people are holding on more tightly to their mechanical cameras guessing/knowing/fearing
    that production will soon come to an halt, or is that the new Leica prices are so high now that it's
    becoming close to impossible to be able to afford an upgrade for us common Leica users?
    It would be nice to hear your opinion on this...
  2. Whoever is so well-researched or all-knowing that he can state with authority why used Leica sales are what they are, would probably be a lot better off at least financially if he turned his attention to predicting other industries :) So with that in mind and antcipating the inevitable barrage of pure speculation stated in authoritative tones that will inevitably follow your question, here's my $0.02: some people are not intending to buy an M8 whether due to financial reasons or fear of it not being able to compete with the Canon-du-jour in the measurebating wars. Other people do intend to buy an M8 but are keeping their film Leicas either because they want them for backup, to shoot black n white, or just because they like them and don't need the money to pay for the M8. Oh, and it's past the summer vacation season but not yet into the X-Mas season so some people consider now a "bad time to sell". In other words, there are probably a multitude of reasons, all or none of which may apply :)
  3. Luigi, I think you are correct. Prices are getting so high it is becoming difficult if not impossible for many of us users to buy new equipment so we are just holding on to what we have. I know I wish I had bought a 75 Cron. a while back. With all the digital hype right now I am just using what I have. Digital has me worried because it costs so darn much money to do it right.

    "Long Live Leica"

    Regards to all,
  4. Personally I'm holding onto my M2s and my lenses. Even when I'm shooting digital, I like an M2 loaded with Tri-X or Tech Pan or maybe Kodak HIE.
  5. Well, so far I'm holding onto my film cameras, Leica and otherwise. Why? I love 'em.

    About the only film camera I've thought of parting with is my early SWC. Not because I don't want to shoot film, but because I might like a 40mm Distagon CF FLE instead. I know, nothing can touch the Biogon--but I think I'd like the groundglass viewing instead.

    I don't think there will be a mass exodus from Leica M film to the M8. The M8 is expensive, and there is the crop factor to take into account. More than that, I like working with film, and I believe many Leica M photographers feel the same way. For me, a digital is just something small to carry when I don't want to bring a real camera.
  6. I'm holding on to my Leica gear and unloading all my Canon digital SLR gear because I like film, hate so-called technological "advances," and since I'm retired now can go back to shooting what I want, when I want and digital just frustrates the heck out of me. If you're interested in the Canon SLR digital stuff send me a note.
  7. They're a lot easier to hold on to with Vulcanite than that slick plastic stuff they've been using since the M6. Maybe a grip would help.
  8. Rob, remember the 28 Elmarit you sold to me a 2-3 years back for, what was it-
    $750? (Nice piece, by the way). Same version went for $1200+ recently. It came
    with a small set of filters, but even so...
  9. In my opinion, the only thing that could truly drive down Leica prices would be the discontinuation of film. There just aren't enough cameras out there in ratio to the amount of people who may want them for the prices to drop substantially.
  10. I've "slimmed down" to my M4-P & 40 Summicron C. Don't need more Leica, don't need less. I've got a pretty comprehensive Hasselblad kit though -- but eventually I expect a reasonably-priced digital back to come out for the 'blad.
  11. What James said. Also, Leicas aren't to SLRs as Nikon might be to Canon. Leicas have mystic, where trading out Nikons or Canons is like changing shoes.
  12. The big thing that will affect not only Leica but just about any other film camera is the end of film. So far I don't see it happening any time soom. Perhaps gradually but not abruptly. Another thing is the cost of high-end digital equipment. Pros can probably afford it. Amaturs... hardly. And even though the digital is the way of the future there is still some room for improvemen in that area. Film, well, it's a proven technology, might not be as good as digital, but it has its users and is well understood. But the prices of Leicas on eBay and elsewhere... I didn't notice a significant drop. It's also important to remember that Leica services a rather smal market niche which consists of not so average photogs. So in some ways it would be unfair to compare it to other camera makers that migrated to digital.
  13. Emir I: " film might not be as good as digital".....mmm....
    I don't agree at all...Vinyl vs CDs quality...I do not see the end of film at all...!
    I have put up for sale -and sold immediately- quite a few of my Leica bits and pieces recently
    (I am going to travel for a while soon and I HAD to trim down my equipment...) and I have
    ALWAYS made back my money, if not more...I don't see how you can do that with digital
    equipment...I just sold a Summilux 35mm 1.4 ASPH to guy who is getting rid of ALL his
    Canon DSLR equipment, MKII, D5 and many lenses to be able to buy himself Leica
    equipment...I wonder why...
  14. Hi to ALL!

    Don't worry be happy with your LEICA's, and try out the brand new ROLLEI SCANFILM CN 400 PRO, which will be the best "symbiosis" between analogue and digtial photgraphy!

  15. Damn straight!
  16. Prices vary for lots of reasons. As said, unless film is totally discontinued, there will be a demand for film based Leicas.
  17. I'm keeping and using my film Leicas because I like film and remain unimpressed by digital technology.
  18. "Are we holding on to our M film Leicas?"


    Just like I'm holding on to my 1966 Ford Mustang.

    I don't worry that film/gasoline wont be available anytime soon.

    My Leica feels good to take pictures with and my Mustang feels good to drive.
  19. I have read threads here that people would sell off their 2nd, 3rd, and/or 4th Leica to help pay for an M8 but would hang on to at least one film Leica.
  20. I have two. I need only two. The shutter curtain in my M4 separated when I was working in Russia. If I didn't have a back-up I'd have been SOL.
  21. SCL


    Would I buy an M8??? Maybe someday, but for the present I'm happy with my Leica M & R film models. I have a Nikon DSLR for digital work. <P>
    My assessment is that, as always, quality doesn't come cheap. As newbies see film stuff, they sometimes want to try it, and so they go for Leica "becaue they've heard that it is good". The demand drives up or maintains the price levels on quality goods, My $0.02.
  22. Ray: I remember. Seems to me it vignettes less than the Summicron ASPH I'm using now. Nice that most of the gear appreciates. Though my 21mm SA is apparently worth a bit less now than the $1250 I paid 8 or 9 years ago.
  23. I'm keeping my three M bodies and the CL. I hate switching lenses. I briefly had a fourth body for awhile last year that came as a good deal with a lens I wanted but it didn't make sense to keep it.
  24. Funny. There's a thread on the Leica Forum where people are fretting about the floor falling out on used prices. So we fret if they're selling for too cheap, and we fret if they're too expensive. I guess that means prices are right where they should be.

    I'm on the wait list for an M8, but will keep my M7 forever. And when there's an M9, I'll probably keep the M8 as a second digital body.
  25. Luigi, on this forum a few M7 were sold for $1600 ish. That was better than the $1900 a couple of months back. Some $1100-1200 M6 came up too.

    The M4s and MPs are stable now because their owners have little interest in drf M8 because they abhor electronics and are originalist Leicaphiles.

    The M8 bleeding edge Leica guys have orders in but the shipments are first being delivered to the distributers and stores. In six months when enough of the orders have been filled then we will see the market change.

    Most of those who put in orders, rich doctors etc. don't need to sell anything to raise cash for whatever they want. But, they will, if satisfied with the M8 results not be using film very much and eventually want to sell off the camera bodies for fear that film bodies will plunge in price. This is the delayed effect. Once the supply of used M6, M6ttl and M7 exceeds the demand even by as little as 15 percent it will be a buyers market and the prices will come down. Look at the housing market and see what even slight inventory imbalances does to prices.
  26. Another observation, the M8 cropping factor will make the 21mm and 75mm cron very pricey since they are now equivalent to 28mm and 100mm. The new Zeiss 18mm f4 will be popular for wide angle landscapes.
  27. >> The M4s and MPs are stable now because their owners have little interest in drf M8
    because they abhor electronics and are originalist Leicaphiles.

    The M8 bleeding edge Leica guys have orders in but the shipments are first being
    delivered to the distributers and stores. In six months when enough of the orders have
    been filled then we will see the market change.

    Most of those who put in orders, rich doctors etc. don't need to sell anything to raise cash
    for whatever they want. <<

    Funny to read this
    I still work with the M4 and MP and will use the M8 alongside then and i'm no rich doctor.
    I decided to make the investment because i thinks it's an important tool to have alongside
    the others i use.
  28. Simon you are an exceptional guy. But to have backup for your backup when Leicas as we know are soo reliable even you in six months from December will be contemplating lightenning up your collection.
  29. LOL Harry ! i forgot to mention then that i've got two other backups for the backups
    M6 and M4-2 :) That said i usaully work with 2 or three bodies at a time either for different
    lenses or ASA rating of TriX.
    Maybe i'm anal but i've traded and sold enough stuff to realise sooner or later
    i'd need it back for something specific. My old Noctilux keeps coming to mind......
  30. Having a bunch of duplicate Leica bodies and lenses makes sense. I used to have a few clients who wanted me to shoot both B&W and slides. Two bodies had 35mm Summicrons, the other two had a 90/2.8 Elmarit and an 85/2 Nikkor. Sure, I carried a 19/3.5 Canon, a 50mm Summicron, and a 135mm Elmarit, but most of the time I didn't need to be juggling lenses. I never considered it a collection. It was a working kit of much needed tools.
  31. I added Leica into my kit a little over a month ago to make great film images. I have no
    interest in getting an M8 since it crops. If I want digital, I have two Canon 5D's to do that
  32. Daniel I would love to add a Canon to my camera collection but may add a second Leica body since I have 4 lenses and only an M4-p with MR-4 and the M winder. Maybe someone like Simon will want to diversify to a FF Canon with lets say the 24-105mm with image stabilization and the silent wave AF motor. At least it has no crop factor and a 1/250 shutter sync.
    If I could choose maybe I would get an M7 for the AE, but I have a Sekonic dedicated spotmeter and a regular Sekonic meter that I would probably still carry along with me to check the cameras internal metering. I also am interested in the Fuji S5 that is comming out since it uses Nikon glass and is based on the D200. It is supposed to have a 400% better dynamic range and a low noise iso 3200. This would make JPEG out of the camera easy. Fuji is supposed to have a Velvia mode that mimics the Velvia look in digital and still have the wide dynamic range to capture wide latitude subject without the blown highlights or loss of shadow detail. I am still looking for something better than what we have before I give up my RF gear. By the way that wide angle Voigtlander looks kool too. I also like the newly announced ZM 18mm f4.0 Zeiss wide angle Biogon design, should become a classic.
  33. >>>>Maybe someone like Simon will want to diversify to a FF Canon with lets say the
    24-105mm with image stabilization and the silent wave AF motor.<<<<

    My friends here in Bangkok have 5D's with fast 1.4 primes and there are truly excellent
    machines but not for my way of working. With an M8 i can see the logic in adding to my
    exisitng setup and the crop factor is not really an issue for me.

    But in all honesty i can't even begin to evaluate its virtues or non virtues till i've got one in
    my hand and i'm shooting with it alongside one of my film bodies.
  34. "Most of those who put in orders, rich doctors etc. don't need to sell anything to raise cash for whatever they want."

    Too funny. Though I suppose if being able to come up with five grand without selling a kidney is your definition of "rich" it's not fair to laugh.
  35. I just can't seem to sustain any high level of interest for the M8. I shoot film for my documentary and personal work and digital 1DsII's for my commercial. I seperate the two into fun with film and work with digital. I've mentioned to my wife that I would rather have my digital gear stolen than my film. Don't get any ideas! In recent months I've had a few new clients ask about my digital and stating they require the cameras to be a minimum of 12 MP and one said a minimum of 10 MP. The M8 is on the bottom edge or below the standards of many upper level clients now and It just doesn't make much sense for me to buy a camera with very limited use. I upgraded to the MKII from the MKI for that very reason and probably will have to do the same when the 22 MP MKIII comes out. It really wears me out to keep this madness up with upgrading equipment but i don't see things changing anytime soon.
  36. I am passionate about the quality of images I get with film via my M6 TTL and more so my R8 and numerous lenses, and I LOVE making prints in my darkroom, so there is no way I would ever sell either body and any of the lenses and then convert to digital. Yes, I am addicted to the magic inherent in film-based results!
  37. I read somewhere that the average american family has $5,000 or less in the bank. Those who use their cameras for commerce can ultimately get someone to pay for their gear, everyone else is paying out of their own stash of greenbacks. The M8 body plus a few other lenses to compensate for the crop factor ( a 15mm or 18mm on the wide end and an 75mm to replace the 90mm) and you are spending a lot of bucks. So far I see only the usual amount of gear being sold. It seems that these folks who are buying the M8 have no money shortage. Maybe they are not rich just richer than me or have fewer kids arround the house.
  38. Harvey - There certainly are people with much more money than I have but there are many with much less. I've come to the conclusion that many of these that don't have money have credit. It's a bad way to support a hobby but that's their choice. My choice is to always pay cash and only use credit when I can pay it in full that month. I enjoy my purchases much more knowing they belong to me not a credit company. It's a choice of lifestyle.
  39. I'm certainly holding on to my film setup, I treasure my MP and 35mm asph, but I just don't use it al that much anymore ... I really enjoy my 5D I like the post processing work and I'm sure I will like my M8 more leaving the MP as a sort of of relic in my cupboard amongst my other relics .... I still have a fridge full of film but seriously am asking myself wether I will ever use them all ....
  40. I understand that the M8 wait may be a few extra weeks. I think you should use the film in the frig meanwhile. The rest you can send to me so they won't go bad. I agree with you on credit cards I just moved and bought a two year old car all paid for within a month. I am not rich, but I don't like car payments and since the vehicle is a priority as a people mover it got the most money. The car is now mine and if I get money and the Canon $600 dollar rebate is available next year I might pick up a $2300 Canon 5D with either the 24-70L or the 24-105L.

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