Anything I should consider besides Nik sw Silver Efex Pro?

<p>I downloaded and used the Nik Software Silver Efex Pro demo and I'm very impressed. It really speeds up some workflow for me from scans, and I like the control it gives me. Before I buy it, are there any other similar tools I should be considering? I will be using it with PhotoShop. Thank you for your thoughts and experiences.</p>

<p>We looked at some of theother Photoshop actions available, but we think that Nik and their U-Point technology is the best plug-in available. It has radically improved our workflowat our digital black & white lab. We have made some b&w prints for the Nik booth at the Photo Plus tradeshow last fall. We like the control it puts in your hands, how it works with grain, and that the effects are all local, to a specific area of the image, and not general changes. You should also consider looking at Sharpener if you haven't tried that.<br>

Eric Luden<br>

Digital Silver Imaging</p>

<p>the free already included BW tools in CS4. But you have to get some knowledge, know how to work with level, curve, and create or simulate your film grain...basically if you want something done fast and easy no brainer style..i think you got the rigth package. If you want ot learn how to do it yourself, it take some time, but you will discover doing so that anything a external plugin can do you also can do it yourself. And if you create action out of it, well you got your own custom plugin : )</p>

<p>Silver Efex Pro is impressive; if you're pleased go for it. Probably the best out there since Convert to B&W Pro ceased operations - that was my favorite tool. I'm not aware of any others.</p>

<p>Patrick, I think <em>everyone</em> here is aware there is a basic B&W tool within CS3/4; and in addition, levels, curves and other adjustments are available. And that for years before that, there have been at least a dozen ways to get B&W within basic CS.</p>

<p>Brad, whats your point? You just cant stop after the first sentence ; )</p>

<p>The OP want a alternative, i give one to him..free.</p>

<p>Patrick, do you <i>really</i> think Michael was unaware B&W conversion can be done with basic ps operations?</p>

<p>why not? a lot of people i know are unaware of many tool in Ps. And why are you saying that the BW tool is basic? im curious.</p>

<p>And for Michael, so i know, did you know CS4 had a BW tool that can do all you need?</p>

<p>Oh, and since it cross my mind, heres another helping tips; Alien Skin Exposure.</p>

<p>>>> And why are you saying that the BW tool is basic? im curious.</p>

<p>Because it is. I've been using it since CS3.</p>

<p>>>> did you know CS4 had a BW tool that can do all you need?</p>

<p>It may do all <em>you</em> need. Others may want something different for a variety of reasons.</p>

<p>Oh, so basic as a included feature you mean? i understand.</p>

<p>As for people might need another tool, sure, why not! Thats why i said it can do whatever you need..nothing stop the OP of using something else indeed : ), but since its free maybe he will like to have a look at it before spending $</p>

<p>So since whe undesrtand each other, let the rest of the thread be what is suppose to be without our usal misunderstanding.</p>

<p>Since you are using Photoshop for this, it does have tools built in for BW, you might want to take a look at those and handle the way curves work. Besides you can save them as an action, but there are filters that are well thought out like the one you mention, and some others. often you end up using 2 or 3 for a certain kind of look or work, and if you take the time you can see how it is to make it in CS4. But if you are looking for more than a couple styles it might be worth buying</p>

<p>As Plug-ins go Silver Efex is indeed a very good one. Patrick is right though, it helps to master all the techniques first in PS because it gives you a far better understanding of what you do. I also agree that it doesn't do anything that you can't do in PS but it indeed speeds up the work somewhat. Apart from the B&W tool however there is still the trusted Channel Mixer which I still prefer, probably because I'm so used to it.</p>

<p>One of the reasons for first acquiring basic skills is that the structure slider for instance rapidly becomes destructive if you don't know what you're doing. Furthermore I find the film presets worse than useless (because not needed) and the filters are just overkill.</p>

<p>Bottom line is just this. Are you willing to part with money for a plug-in that doesn't do anything that you can't do yourself?</p>

<p>Thank you all. I know how to do B&W conversion<g>. I also have several freebie tools that do a decent job, but my main goal is vignetting and saving some of the actions for reuse on a series of shots. It is really the manipulation of the image after it is B&W that I'm interested in.</p>

<p>Tom, Yeah, I really picked up on the structure bar becoming an issue with destroying pixel structure. OTOH, I was impressed that they put revisions on new layers. I also found that their "profiles" for various films are nowhere near my experience with each of them. But it is nice to be able to try different looks to quickly approximate what I'm going for.</p>

<p>The other thing I hope they do is add a new slider to U-Point, which is the circle shape. Not just the size, but sliding to the middle gives you a perfect circle, sliding to the right gives you a horizontal ellipse, and left might give you a vertical ellipse.</p>

<p>As for price: sure I can do it all myself, but if its controls are prepackaged, it does save me some time over stored actions. It's not too expensive, but it's not cheap either, and I want to make sure I'm not missing anything else.</p>

<p>I sometimes do things from first principles in PS but to be honest I think the PS design philiosphy is "why do something in 3 steps when 23 is better" - and too many people have fallen for this. I have tried Nik Silver Efex and it's faster and provides good control - with out the huge learning curve then the huge time wasting that doing it from scratch in PS involves. OK - I admit later versions of PS are better than they were as they now include some shortcuts of sorts but the Nik filters are superb and speed up post processing greatly with no loss of control.</p>

<p><em>"I think the PS design philiosphy is "why do something in 3 steps when 23 is better" - and too many people have fallen for this"</em></p>

<p>Peter, that's because it's supposed to be non-destructive. A lot of plug-ins, if not most, are just that. Shortcuts have their price.</p>

<p>@Peter, i think general public philosophy is <em>" theres is 15 way of doing thing in photoshop "</em> but it should be follow by <em>" but only 2-3 really need to be mastered, because they are quick, give constant result and they are really intuitive" </em> and with the new bw tool, theres is really 1 good way that meet thats description (i have some preset for you Ton, being a long time user of channel mixer myself, i made the switch)</p>

<p>If you take 23 step to do something thats because you have a lack of experience and knowledge OR that the shot really really needs it like photo montage, fashion retouching on multiple layers etc...if you need 23 step to do a bw conversion ready to be print..then you need a external plugin to get you out of your misery.</p>

<p>My point when the OP ask if he should get it or not was simple; Not knowing him, i had to assume that like 99% of the time when people ask if they should get a plugin its because they are not knowledgable enough to do it, or they are taking too much time to create it, thats why i suggest to have a look at the bw tool, and then compare it with the plugin. Then the OP said that he knows how to do bw in Photoshop, but is real need is the automatic way of doing it that could save time, so i again assume that he is taking maybe too much time doing is method, and for him a plugin could be the answer BUT;</p>

<p>The OP also said that what he need is a way of doing thing faster, and mainly also to create vignette on is images, vignette and setting he can simply apply to others images, so for him, i would as a experience photoshop user try to help him saying that he should then invest is time creating a action or multiple action, because the 1 or 2 hres he will invest will make him proud after, he will save money, and he would be able to twick it the way he want. I alsways ask myself before buying something like that this questions <em>" how much to i worth per hours vs this 300$ plugin?"</em> If you charge 30$/hre to a client for the retouching, and it take you 2-3 hours to create a BW per image..x 8 images, thats 24 x 30 = 720$ of your time that you can still bill to the client later anyway, but imagine if you could do all this job in 12hre instead, still billing the client the 24 hre of course? then the plugin price would be acceptable no questions ask. But is i can show you that in 2 hres you can create all kind of action that will still save you some time, and you would only spend 2 x 30$ (orth of your time to create it)..cost 60$ investment vs 300..why would you buy a plugin then?</p>

<p>See my point about should i get a plugin or not?</p>

<p>Heres a quick how to for bw creation that i use everyday..as a action. I will keep it short and sweet, because i have to go back to work after ; )</p>

<p><strong>STEP 01_</strong> adjustment bw tool to create your bw style, using the different sloder to get the effect you want, you can then save them for future use as preset and save again a lot of time. I have create some for nature, lansdscape, portrait, architecture, all of those can be of course refine later, and of coruse i could use the lansdscape one over a portrait and see whats up with it..the point is i have multiple set alreayd done and ready for the action (by the way if you want them, get my email by clicking my name and i will send you teh link..for <strong>FREE</strong> ) By using the bw tool you could depending of your setting also play with the contrast of a scene.</p>

<p><strong>STEP 02_</strong> adjustment layer curve to get the density / contrast you need to add more pop to the image, a simple curve without setting just click OK, set is blending mode to soft light and voila! nice contrast..then use the opacity slider to get it where you want. Or do it manually like normal and adjust the density / contrast at the same time. You can create a generic S curve and press OK, so if you run it as a action, this generic curve will be applied, and easy to refine.</p>

<p><strong>STEP 03_</strong> add a layer fill with gray 50% set the blending mode to soft light, select a brush with the size you need to paint area of your image for the dodge & burn pro way. Set the opacity of the brush to 40% that will give you the option of multiple pass on the same area to create dimension on your dodge & burn..like in real life. Use the foreground white to dodge, and the foreground black to burn. This is the finition step so take all the time you want to get to where you want. No automatic plugin can do this for you, so even with SilverFX, you should still use this last step as part of your workflow.</p>

<p><strong>EXTRA01_</strong> For the vignette, i will explain 1 way of doing it, simple. I use 2-3 method myself depending of what i want. Create a adjustment layer curve, no setting, press OK, set the blending mode to multiply, fill the white mask with black, use the linear gradient tool and discover the area you want the vignette to appear on. Adjust the layer opacity to suit your need.</p>

<p><strong>EXTRA02_</strong> if you want some<strong> film grain simulation </strong> (i know nothing is like the real deal bla bla bla, but for most user who dont know film and dont want to know film, its the closest way of creating it other than scanning a real film and pasting this frame to there images) Anyway, zoom to 100% add a layer fill with gray 50% set the blending mode to soft light, go to noise enter the number you want for the effect you see on screen you like and use gaussian and monochromatic for the setting, i like 5 to get a ncie effect, but i also like 10-15 for a more drama look, then OK. Go to filter / blur / gaussian blur and add around .5 to the grain, it will give it a more organic look. Drop the opacity of this layer to around 80%. the reason why i put it as my last step is because it can also cover banding if you have gone too far with your bw tool setting (the blue area is really fragile, and sometime you can see banding there)</p>

<p>Et voila! A 3 step bw conversion (+ 2 extra in need) that can be set as a action and run in no time on multiple file taht you have at any kind of sie and resolution. By the time i was writing this for you, my Photoshop was running a action for magazine CMYK preparation, 200 images 12x18 300ppi with a bit of final step sharpening, a bit of black pop to give it a extra edge..all that on the back of my internet window. i save time, i can write tutorial, i still can bill my client...and i still can read the other new PN post without getting late in my day.</p>

<p> </p>

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<p>Before I buy it, are there any other similar tools I should be considering?</p>

 

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<p>I think i just give you another good option. Even if Brad is saying<em> <strong>"Patrick, I think <em>everyone</em> here is aware there is a basic B&W tool within CS3/4; and in addition, levels, curves and other adjustments are available. And that for years before that, there have been at least a dozen ways to get B&W within basic CS."</strong> </em> maybe you didtn know what i just explain, and for that, thats is why i always assume that people can not always know everything, even if it seem totaly normal if they should.<em> </em> Not everyone is a experience user, and when you think everyone should know something..well a lot of people stay in the dark and still use old method.<em><br /> </em></p>

<p> </p>

<p>Heres a visual demonstration. For once, you will see one of my personal image (not a client one, for those who could ask if i cant also take picture not just retouched them) and the 3 step darkroom..OK 4 : )</p>

<p>heres the color original taken with my Canon G9 in my Panama Family trip last November.</p><div></div>

<p>Heres the step 03, the paintaing layer..the Dodge & Burn one. (i skip Step 02 as you will see the final result right after)</p>

<p> </p><div></div>

<p>And the final image in BW, uing Step 01-02-03 and the Extra Film Grain Simulation. I got this result in 3min approx, with the Dodge & Burn layer that take most of my time : )</p><div></div>

<p>And here's the layer window as a proof that my method work..at least for me : )</p><div></div>

<p>another one just for fun, i simply drag the same setting to this one, and turn OFF the D&B layer (as this layer can only be use with the file where it as been created.)</p><div></div>

<p>OK, last one i promise..i like odd number 2 shot seem not enough : )</p>

<p>heres one using the same technique, from Cuba, 4 years ago, with my Olympus E20 (what a bad camera!..but she done the job at that time!)</p><div></div>

<p>Paul, step 1-2-3 take sometime to set i agree, let say couple of minute for a experienced user, but when done..creating a action of all your 1-2-3 step is simple and on a press of a button the result take 2-3 second.. Take it as you create your own set of plugin without the fancy interface... The fact is, for a user who already know how, i dont see the point of spending $ on a plugin, when one could invest in a better lens, better printer etc... but to each there own way of spending money ; )</p>

<p>The result you see on top have been create with my action set, so i can say that with no more than 20sec you have a pretty good result, then you dodge and burn to your desire. The point about why i show you this tutorial was to show people that you could get stunning result with 3 step..not 23. And maybe that could help you or the OP to realize that it is in fact pretty simple and save 300$ there, 200$ there..and in the end get better and faster..with more money in your pocket.</p>

<p>the beauty of the digital darkroom for me is to be able to create what i want from my own experience, not with the push of a button that 200000 user can do effortelessly with the same result.</p>

<p><br /> As i said, i understand why people would want plugin, i personnaly prefer to use my own action and ditribute them for free ; )</p>

<p>try it, you might like it!</p>

<p><em><strong>" "I think the PS design philiosphy is "why do something in 3 steps when 23 is better" - and too many people have fallen for this"</strong></em><br>

<strong>Peter, that's because it's supposed to be non-destructive. A lot of plug-ins, if not most, are just that. Shortcuts have their price."</strong><br>

The destructive / non destructive argument has never held much sway with me. I always have a RAW original and I always also save the original JPG that I developed from the RAW file. I then work on a separate saved file to make my further edits.<br>

When undertaking editing on a file, occasionally I will need to back out of an edit and re do it but its never ever proven to be much of an issue for me. Usually this does not occur when I am two or three edits further on so I just have to reverse the last edit. I can see that doing everything on a separate layer every time has its benefits (eg if you later decide to increase or decrease an effects power you can do this easily) but it still often seems to me that PS is almost deliberately and perversely obtuse in its manner of doing things - perhaps because its designed for highly trained pros its never seen the need to build in shortcuts and more efficient ways of doing things - a bit like the QWERTY keyboard. Other layouts are much more efficient but no one wants to try to retrain all of the typists in the world.<br>

A further example that springs to my mind can be found with Paint Shop Pro Photo X2 compared with PS as an example of how some software tries to make effects / filters easier to understand and more efficient use. The former has a background eraser for erasing layers in order to see the underlaying layer. Not sure of CS3/4 but in PS 6 (the most recent one I was using) from memory you have to know that you use a layer mask and then paint over it with a black brush. Fine for pros who know this, but hell for someone learning. Also in PSPP2 it has a color wheel based black and white conversion tool (as well as channel mixer et al) So making a BW conversion is simple and because almost all of its filters give you a real time view of your edits (on a large almost full screen viewer) you know what the results will look like befire you actually apply them - so the destructive / non destructive thing is almost a non event.<br>

PS is powerful and I acknowledge it is the benchmark for image editors. But it just seems to me that it's a better tool for graphic designers than for photographers whose needs in the main are more modest and who have workfloww issues - if you are converting and optimising 20 images in one sitting can you really afford spending the time that PS forces you to spend on every single image to get optimal results. Understand I use PS but I tend to reserve it for when I REALLY need its power.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>The former has a background eraser for erasing layers in order to see the underlaying layer. Not sure of CS3/4 but in PS 6 (the most recent one I was using) from memory you have to know that you use a layer mask and then paint over it with a black brush. Fine for pros who know this, but hell for someone learning. Also in PSPP2 it has a color wheel based black and white conversion tool (as well as channel mixer et al) So making a BW conversion is simple and because almost all of its filters give you a real time view of your edits (on a large almost full screen viewer) you know what the results will look like befire you actually apply them - so the destructive / non destructive thing is almost a non event.</p>

 

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<p>CS4 got them both : )</p>

 

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<p>PS is powerful and I acknowledge it is the benchmark for image editors. But it just seems to me that it's a better tool for graphic designers than for photographers whose needs in the main are more modest and who have workfloww issues</p>

 

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<p>Thats one of the main reason why a lot of photographer have simply switch to Lightroom..</p>