Anyone using the ES-2?

One of the USPs touted for the D850 was its film/slide copying ability when coupled with the ES-2 and a macro lens.

 

Does this ability reside in the camera's firmware, or is there some software supplied with the ES-2?

 

If firmware based, does the camera automatically deal with colour negative film? And how well does it perform?

 

I see no mention of any additional software being supplied with the ES-2, and the same copying facility doesn't seem to be being claimed for the Z6 or Z7. So was it all just D850 hype?

 

Incidentally, I'm getting some good results using my D7200 to 'scan' colour negatives, but the digital processing is a pain.

The negative conversion is just a D850 feature. But other than that, it should be possible to use the device on any camera (if you want to digitize slides or want to use your own software to convert negatives).

I have a Nikon ES-2, and have used it extensively. The ES-2 is simply a film holder that attaches to a 5'ish macro lens with a 52 mm or 62 mm filter thread. It is specifically designed for a Nikon 40/2.8 or 60/2.8 macro lens, but I use it with an old 55/2.8 AIS Micro-Nikkor. It comes with two film holders, one for two mounted slides, and the other for a strip of up to 6 frames.

 

The D850 has built-in software to convert color negatives. There are other ways to do that, manually and automatically. I use Silverfast HD, which is the processing end of their scanning software. I have written extensively on this topic in other threads on PN.

Ed, does the ES-2 make a frame-filling copy of unmounted negatives with the 40mm macro on a DX body? I'm using a modified ES-1 for that purpose, but it's a bit clumsy. Slides are no problem. The ES-2 seems to be designed for the Nikon 850, an FX body.

So any current Nikon DSLR could have the updated firmware to convert negs?

So any current Nikon DSLR could have the updated firmware to convert negs?

I don't think so because Nikon wants to sell the D850. Let face it I don't think people who bought the D5 would want to use it for that purpose as it has lower resolution. The D750 is due to be replaced so Nikon wouldn't want you to hang on to the D750. Now I don't know if the Z has that capability but Nikon would have to make another adapter for the Z lenses and by the way there isn't a Micro lens for the Z mount lenses yet.

I really was looking to get the ES-2 but there was some comments that the D850 did not do such a good job with the in built feature. Is this still the case or was it resolved with a firmware update?

 

I have so many negs it would be great to use this to get some printed up.

I suppose it's possible Nikon would add it in a firmware update to other cameras but first I would like to see it implemented in a way that permits recording of RAW files and maybe Capture NX-D could then provide conversion options from the NEF to TIFF, similar to what is available in scanning software.

 

I haven't tested the negative conversion yet, only slides so far. I will report on the results once I get some time to work on color negatives. I have Nikon scanners that I can use but this would be a faster way.

Ed, does the ES-2 make a frame-filling copy of unmounted negatives with the 40mm macro on a DX body? I'm using a modified ES-1 for that purpose, but it's a bit clumsy. Slides are no problem. The ES-2 seems to be designed for the Nikon 850, an FX body.

It depends on how much extension you need between the lens and film. I'm using an FX camera (Sony A7Riii), and managed to get 1:1 reproduction with a 55/2.8 macro lens. I used one of the 62 mm tubes with a 52-62 filter adapter to get that last 1/4".

 

A DX camera will require less magnification (1:1.5), but a longer working distance. A lot would depend on the lens you use, and 40 mm probably better than 60 mm. You get a short and long 62 mm extension in the box, and a short 52 mm adapter. I'm sure you could put something together without resorting to duct tape.

 

Photoshop has a conversion option in the Curves dialogue, which IMO is worthless. There's a lot of difference between emulsion types, and a small change in exposure affects color as well. You need a conversion tool with flexibility. I have found that with Silverfast HD. Mine came with the full package for a Nikon LS-8000 scanner, but it is available separately from Lasersoft. There are a couple of caveats in my experience.

 

• Set the white balance on the empty ES-2, with the light source you're using.
  
• Any artificial light source will do if it has an even spectrum and uniform coverage. This includes a daylight LED replacement bulb in a desk lamp (my choice). A flash will work, but it is harder to set up and exposure is by trial and error.
  
• Daylight, open sky or a window is too variable to be practical. Correcting for foliage really complicates color balancing.
  
• Once you have "scanned" the film, crop the images to exclude any blank borders from the image. They have a profound effect on the conversion process.
  
• Use live view for focusing (a Sony always has live view) and any focusing aids possible. Slides in cardboard mounts are always bulged in the center. I focus on the center, or 2/3 from the edge to the center. F/5.6 or f/8 gives you enough DOF to cover the entire film for FF. DX would be even better.
  
• The emulsion side should face away from the camera, for best use of DOF and L/R correctness.
  

I don't think so because Nikon wants to sell the D850

Emphasis on could not would/should....;)

A flash will work, but it is harder to set up and exposure is by trial and error.

 

- Nah! You just need a white surface in front of the camera - 2 or 3 foot away - and a speedlight pointed at it and mounted in the camera hotshoe. I set between 1/8th and 1/16th power on the flash and f/5.6 on the Micro-Nikkor. Works every time. I suspect flash TTL exposure might work, but manual power selection works for me. The important thing is not to overexpose and blow out the shadow area of the negatives.

 

There should only be a range of 2.0D or so in any negative - B&W or colour - and that's easily fully captured in a RAW file.

 

(An 8 stop DR is equal to 2.4D)

 

I also set the camera WB to Tungsten, which mostly cancels out the orange contrast mask when coupled with a flash exposure.

 

I'm now just looking for software that automatically gets somewhere within spitting-distance of correct colour from a RAW copy of the colour negs.

 

From the deafening silence so far, I'm guessing the built-in D850 conversion isn't that great?

Nikon's post for the ES-2 is

This once time-consuming process involving a film scanner can be done much more quickly

I haven't used the ES-2 itself, but I have used plenty of the older, on-camera holders of this type, and they are actually only handy if you are doing one or two scans for some undemanding scanning task.

 

If you think about it, there is a reason why the on-camera scanning tools are always available cheap on eBay, still in their original boxes.

Often described as "used once".

If you think about it, there is a reason why the on-camera scanning tools are always available cheap on eBay, still in their original boxes.

Often described as "used once".

 

- If you're talking about the devices with a cheap copying lens inside - usually also taking a T2 mount - then they're nothing like an ES-2 or other similar device designed to be used with a high-quality macro lens.

 

Having said that; those cheap film-era slide copiers deliver very reasonable results. Probably a lot sharper than can be got from a flatbed scanner. IME they easily resolve the grain across most of the frame, which is more than can be said for some name brand dedicated scanners.

If you're talking about the devices with a cheap copying lens inside

 

Some of mine were more expensive units precisely (if that word can be used in this context) made for use with macro lenses.

 

 

Probably a lot sharper than can be got from a flatbed scanner

 

Not in my experience, if the flatbed is one made for higher quality film scans (like the Canoscan 9000F and such like)

 

I don't consider any scanner adequate if it won't resolve grain and/or dye clouds on the entire scan.

I have used my Canoscan 9000, the Nikon ES-1 and the old Nikon Bellows with Nikon Slide copy attachment - all produce pretty decent results. For slides, once you develop a good setup & workflow, I have found the ES 1 to be considerably faster than the scanner. Negatives are faster with the scanner, and faster still if you buy an additional film strip holder to speed workflow. The scanner is also less likely to damage negatives. Since I have several successful methods, the ES -2 hasn't tempted me. Whatever method, for me, copying is very boring, and the bulk of what I have done is based on Family and other obligations.

Not in my experience, if the flatbed is one made for higher quality film scans (like the Canoscan 9000F and such like)

 

I don't consider any scanner adequate if it won't resolve grain and/or dye clouds on the entire scan.

 

- This issue is being debated in the film and processing forum right now, and it comes down to film flatness.

 

In order to get sharpness across the entire frame with any glassless holder, it's necessary to use a small aperture. An aperture that's sub-optimal as far as resolution goes, due to diffraction. This is an optical fact-of-life, and it doesn't matter whether the sensor used is a tri-linear one or a bayer matrix.

 

The difference being that you can choose the best aperture to use with a camera and macro lens. You can't with a scanner.

 

I'm not sure why you have such a down on digital camera copying JDM. The results can be just as good as a dedicated scanner. You just have to put the work in getting your technique and workflow right.

Negatives are faster with the scanner, and faster still if you buy an additional film strip holder to speed workflow.

 

- The ES-2, and my modified ES-E28, come supplied with a 6 frame filmstrip holder. It's practically identical to those supplied with an auto-feed scanner. So I'm not seeing your point about speed and the potential for damage.

 

The speed issue with negative film is basically what I'm trying to address here.

 

I've used dedicated film scanners in the past, and found the results from colour negative film need some hand tweaking at best, and a complete workover from a 16 bit RAW scan at worst. There doesn't appear to be any automatic software solution that's completely satisfactory, which makes the hardware used to capture the image slightly irrelevant.

 

However, I'm finding digital-camera copying to be much speedier in getting to the RAW file in the first place, and with little difference in resolution between it and a good-quality scanner. The convenience and speed factor, plus no chance of computer incompatibility, make camera copying a decided winner for me though.

it's necessary to use a small aperture. An aperture that's sub-optimal as far as resolution goes, due to diffraction.

Can't the D850 be 'set-up' to do auto focus-stacking?, sure the actual stacking to make one picture is in PC later.

 

Then you can use the optimum aperture, usually ~ 5.6 for my macros, esp. the 150mm sigma os.

 

What the thing really want's is AF focus bracketing*...say 0.25mm infront of focus plane, at the plane and 0.25mm beyond.

 

*EDIT. I have a vague recollection ControlMyNikon and Helicon or maybe Zyrene Stacker can be made to do this automatically.

Edited January 24, 2019 by mike_halliwell

- Nah! You just need a white surface in front of the camera - 2 or 3 foot away - and a speedlight pointed at it and mounted in the camera hotshoe. I set between 1/8th and 1/16th power on the flash and f/5.6 on the Micro-Nikkor. Works every time. I suspect flash TTL exposure might work, but manual power selection works for me. The important thing is not to overexpose and blow out the shadow area of the negatives.

Of course it works, but a desk lamp is simpler to set up and works better with auto exposure than a flash. I use a white card to reflect and diffuse light for the ES-2.

 

Can't the D850 be 'set-up' to do auto focus-stacking?, sure the actual stacking to make one picture is in PC later.

Focus stacking doesn't work near 1:1 magnification because focusing the lens doesn't work. At 1:1, the film is as close to the image plane as possible. Any change in magnification requires a larger total distance (f + f'). If you set the lens to 1:1, the only way to focus is by adjusting the sliding tube on the ES-2.

 

Life is simpler when using a DX camera to cover the whole slide, because the magnification is less than unity (1:1.5). Once you rough-in the focus with the sliding tube, you can use the focusing ring on the lens, or even auto focus. I get the same effect by reducing the magnification to about 1:1.1, then fine tuning the focus with the focusing ring. This shows more of the mount or border, but the loss through cropping is minimal.

 

You can try using auto focus stacking with a D850, but I don't think it would help. The increments are too large for the application, and stacking can create artifacts. Stacking is really intended for macro photography and up, in order to increase the DOF for product photography and landscapes.

 

Helicon Stacker can control certain motorized focusing rails, but not, AFIK, the built-in D850 function. I suspect that is done by Nikon software/firmware only.

The increments are too large for the application

What size are the increments?

 

I guess a 1/4 turn on a 1mm pitch driving thread would cover enough 'depth' on a focusing rail?

 

How do 'conventional' slide scanners deal with this issue?

Can't the D850 be 'set-up' to do auto focus-stacking?, sure the actual stacking to make one picture is in PC later.

 

- Good thought Mike. I hadn't even considered focus stacking. Although it does complicate things more and adds even more PP steps that are bound to slow the workflow further.

How do 'conventional' slide scanners deal with this issue?

 

- The better ones have an AF system that simply motors the copying lens to-and-fro. Or they may have a crude IF system that moves a group of elements, or even shift the sensor mounting slightly. Whatever, they mainly rely on using a middling aperture to cover any lack of film flatness.

 

With auto-feed scanners, the ones I've used only focus on the first or selected frame, and leave the rest to luck. The AF is a slow process and takes a few seconds, so accuracy is sacrificed for speed. However, it wouldn't be rocket science to make individual frame AF a user-selectable option in the driver software.

 

Most flatbed scanners have no focus system of any kind. Not unless you dismantle them and unlock the lens to adjust its position. I've done this, and it's a thankless, long-winded and pretty fruitless task. If you expect to get anywhere near the maker's claimed 'true optical resolution', then be prepared to be bitterly disappointed!

Edited January 24, 2019 by rodeo_joe|1

You'd almost think a contact print method would work. It worked well enough for negs and slides....;)

 

If the light source was fully parallel across the full frame (telecentric?) it should work OK.

 

I'm not sure Newton's Rings are an issue here?

You can set the focusing area in a Nikon scanner, on individual frames in a strip or slide, and make it the default. Most of the time, the center is the best place. As long as the main subject is in focus, who cares about the corners? SLR lenses for film weren't very sharp in the corners anyway.

 

An earlier posting suggested the D850 could be set to 0.25 mm increments. At that size, you could miss the best focus point completely. Again, that feature seems better suited to

 

My grandmother would say, "Your'e straining gnats to swallow a fly." The best a scanner can do is resolve the dye clouds, while film itself does not resolve at the grain level. With Nikon MF scanners, the best solution is to use a glass carrier for unmounted film. Good is often good enough.

 

Hasselblad Flextite scanners have a unique solution - stretch the film lengthwise along an arc. This inherently eliminates any cupping (crosswise to the film) because film can only bend in one direction at a time. The carrier is moved along that arc opposite a fixed lens, and scanned laterally. Drum scanners do essentially the same thing by taping the film to a cylinder. The cylinder is rotated while a single scanning point is moved lengthwise down the drum. There is a single plane of focus. The scanning resolution is easily adjustable by the size of the aperture and speed of the traverse.

 

I guess a 1/4 turn on a 1mm pitch driving thread would cover enough 'depth' on a focusing rail?

That's one way, but I use a rack-and-pinion focusing rail to rough in the focus for MF film, then fine tune with the lens. Even with a digital Hasselblad, the magnification is always less than unity. I use a Sony A7Riii, which has more resolution and better macro capability. The Sony applies 6x digital magnification for focusing (1:1 with the sensor), which quickly dispels the useful fiction of DOF. The spot can be moved to anywhere in the frame.

 

A threaded focusing rail would be good for focusing at 1:1 in an open setup. There is about 1/4 turn backlash, so life is not so simple. Turning one direction, it works well for stacking exposures for really small items. An RRS rail has a release clutch for fast adjustments, plus a long sliding V rail.

Most mounted slide carriers work on the v-groove set-up so the film is always in the same plane irrespective of the mount thickness.

There is about 1/4 turn backlash

A PTFE threaded bush and brass thread has zero backlash. No great force or power needs to be used here.

 

An earlier posting suggested the D850 could be set to 0.25 mm increments

 

No I didn't, go read it again!! They're not even in the same paragraph.....:confused:

 

However, it SHOULD be possible for user set increments to be set, go do it Nikon.....;)

 

I meant it's easily possible to move a camera body by small enough increments to allow 4 or 5 shots per 'depth' of slide warp.

 

No-one seems to know the AF movement increment for the D850.... which I gotta say seems pretty odd to me!!

Edited January 24, 2019 by mike_halliwell

A slide is in or out of focus in a 1/8" turn of a 2" lens barrel, far finer than a threaded focusing rail. It's not as easy to remove backlash as you suggest. A lens uses a long helix engagement and grease. A vernier uses spring-loaded gears. A worm gear uses preload and spring loading. A TFE bushing is good one day, loose the next due to wear and cold flow. Lost motion is something you live with, or pay big bucks to eliminate. There is no provision with an ES-2 for fine adjustment of any sort, beyond a slip joint and the lens helix.