Another ratings issue

Here's another example of why, no matter what the administrators do,

the rating system doesn't work.

 

Today, I received a curt comment on a photo and a direct email from

someone complaining about a "negative" rate he believes I gave one of

his photos. Here's the thing. The photo had no rates below 4/4 (at

least at that time). I happened to have given the photo a rating

higher than that. The photo was up there on the TRP, with a fairly

high average. Yet, this individual took offence at what is NOT, by

the sites guidelines, a negative rate.

 

Clearly, the rating system isn't understood (at least the sites

intended system). I think Mate Raters undestand it very well. Also,

people with common sense will simply stop posting rates so they don't

have to deal with those out there that take anything less than 6/6 as

an insult.

 

I know this is nothing new. I also know this particular instance

isn't anything the administrators can resolve. My hope is that this

will make people think twice about the rating scale and harrassing

people for offering an honest rate.

Laurie, I've noticed that too, of course. Anything less than "6/6" is considered an insult by many. Mostly, in my observations, I have found the photographers offended are those whose mates have inflated their egos to immeasurable proportions.

 

I have with rare occasion seen someone get bent over a "5/5" other than ones who hadn't themselves dolled out thousands of "6/6s" and "7/7s." I believe it's a misundertstanding of the purpose of the ratings. A language gap, perhaps?

 

With Brian's recent application of the Mate Rating filter, too, their inability to find themselves on page one of the TRP must be very frustrating. Poor things. I'm all weepy about it.

I think people get upset when someone has the audacity to give their images ratings that might cost them their high-visibility spot on the Top-Rated pages. Some of the work is good (some not), and if they'd just spend their time doing something that mattered, like marketing it, maybe they'd learn whether or not it has real value.

I've receieved an e-mail today in Spanish (which I don't speak) and did a rough translation on Altavista Babelfish. I think the poster was accusing me of picking on him. I replied courteously on his picture (which I gave a 4/6)and explained that to award a 7 I think an image must be worthy of winning a competition. I even gave him a copy of my ratings for all his images from my workspace. The ratings varied from between 3 and 7 (a fair spread in my opinion!).

 

I've just received another e-mail from the same person, once again in Spanish, which I think is accusing me of something and talking about moderators. By the way, can anybody offer a translation of this one?

 

TU QUE QUE VAS, NO PUEDES RESPONDERME A MI CORREO LO TIENS QUE PONER EN MI FOTO,, TU MISMO,, TE PIDO PORFAVOR QUE BORRES ESE COMETNARIO,, O LO TNEDRAN QUE HACER LOS MODERADORES

 

I also suggested he e-mail his "friends and countrymen" questioning why they dole out endless 7/7's, but somehow think he won't be following up on that suggestion.

 

Oh, and for some reason he's now decided to delete the image.

He's saying that you couldn't e-mail him with your comment, that you had to put it on his photo. He is asking you to remove it. If not, he says, the moderators will have to do so.

 

He obviously feels that his photo has been tainted by the appearance of your comment below it.

No WAY that came from a Spanish-speaker, not on THIS site....

 

That's sarcasm.

 

Good grief.

 

Well, let them take their portfolio to the heavy-hitters. I'm sure Nikon, Canon, or Olympus will pick them up as pro shooters, and put us in our place.

I wish my respose copuld be reproduced here, but he deleted the photo. There was nothing untoward in it whatsoever. I only posted the comment on his photo, rather than e-mail, because he seemed to take offence at being given a 4/6 on that image.

 

Funny, he never e-mailed when I gave him a 7.

 

BTW, how on earth do these people know what rating I've given them? I'm just about ready to give up. So many people in this forum complaining about mate rating, and do I ever see their names on a list of raters? No!

Mark, Apparently, it's OK for him to harrass you with e-mail. He can whine in private but you have to make your comments public. Hmmm, I say make some "public" comments on his photos. He may regret his request.

 

Not only have the Mate Raters taken over the TRP, they're filling the mailboxes of those who offer honest rates.

 

I've hesitated to post honest rates on photos if the photo was on the TRP and my rate would lower the average. I didn't want to deal with the reprisals, especially from known mate raters. Since I'm having to deal with them anyway, I plan to start rating on a regular basis, averages be damned. Don't get me wrong, I'll rate honestly and objectively. I'll also comment to support whatever rate I offer. I'm just not going to worry about reprisals. They apparently come, no matter what.

I too got a response from one of the Hispanic lesser lights of the TRP on one of my images in reply to a critique I gave to one of his. actually, his reply was quite decent though he made no attempt to comment on my image other than to offer the uselessly knee-jerk "7/7". but what I had done was to translate his Spanish critique request question (yes, he uploaded to the RFC) into English. and he was quite appreciative of that, and so were some English readers. I think responded about his explanation on the image and revised my critique accordingly with a constructive suggestion.

 

the point? rather than getting so hung up on rating these images, why not constructively attempt to bridge the language barrier to improve communication and also critique?

Reprisals, yeah, I know all about those.

 

I often rate the front two pages of the TRP 24hr view, and, as I always state, rate honestly.

 

Yet, as well as this last character, I've also been accused of stalking somebody.

 

As you point out, sometimes your rating will lower the average, but what else are you to do - join the mate raters?

Hello all. I?m new to PN and I?m not yet a patron, but I?m going to give my opinion none the less.

What are the chances of getting some kind of golden rule set up? Something along the lines of ?If you are going to give a rating of say, 2 or less please say why?.

It has worked like that once at least. I gave someone a low mark and he e-mailed me, said he hadn?t intended that photo to be there and he took it down.

If we get a 3, and I have had lots, well, not all of our work is going to please everybody. We all have our own criteria for judging work. Something you or I may think is wonderful, the next person might think is pants (I hope you speak British). For my own part, I have put up some stuff that didn?t come out the way I wanted it, I hope the critiques will give the answer why that is. By the way, so far, I have avoided giving ratings of 1 and 2 for originality to the 9000th shot of the gates, sorry, a quick rant there. Regards. P.

Hmm.

That had punctuation and paragraphs in word. Bit of a learning point there ;-)

<p>"<i>so far, I have avoided giving ratings of 1 and 2 for originality to the 9000th shot of the gates</i>"

 

<p>originality has nothing to do with choice of subject genre. it has everything to do with choice of photographic approach to any subject genre. that said, many of the photographic approaches to the gates look unoriginal. but some are quite varied and "original".

You have a point there.

Howard,

 

I'm sure your translation of the RFC was both helpful and appreciated by the photographer and others posting comments. I've often skipped over images when I didn't understand the RFC. I should make more of an effort.

 

Im not sure if you're referring to my post or Mark's. Just so we're clear, the photographer who contacted me used English. His site, RFC etc. are in English. I don't think there's a language barrier. I think he is simply bewildered that someone could give him less than a 6/6. I have critiqued a number of this photographers photos in the past. Until now, I have almost always provided comments with any rates given. More often than not, I'll comment and not bother to rate. Occasionally, I exercise my right on this site to post a rate and not leave a comment. Since my rate was neither negative nor extremely high, I don't think I need to justify my lack of comment.

 

Had I given the photo a truly low rate without commenting, I could understand the photographers response. If he simply mistook me for someone who rated his photo very low without comment, I would be more understanding. My point is.....this photographer got his panties in a wad over a 4/4, falsely blamed me for what he mistakes as a "negative" rate, posts a curt comment on one of my photos and proceeds to send me an e-mail about it.

 

The photographer I refer to has been around long enough, posted enough, and responded enough to know the rating scale and the site's definition or explanation of the numerical values. As Chris pointed out, he's just so accustomed to gratuitous high rates, his perception is skewed.

my best advice: life's too short, write comments, get comments, learn from comments, share with comments; use this place as a place to learn and share with people trying to do the same.

 

as for ratings, do whatever you would like, but try not to care, one way or the other. if someone makes ratings a priority, either don't expect anything useful from them or react to them, or ignore them. we can't stop people from making photo.net, and the art of photography, into a numbers competition; i don't think its worth the emotional energy to get involved with the ratings game from whatever angle you approach it.

 

ratings problems are universal and speak no one language. they include being too concerned about "fairness" in ratings.

 

i guess i am saying that people from around the world gather on this site to share insights, others turn this into a numbers competition. i choose to join the first and do what i can to advance that agenda. i try to ignore the second. i am happier when i succeed.

okay, then rather than getting so hung up on rating these images, why not simply avoid rating them? as others have pointed out, there really is no joy to rating below what photographers expect to receive, and clearly no personal benefit deriving either way. but there is a benefit to all for commenting on these images early enough in the process. an early critical comment can help blunt bandwagon ratings - even if just one reader reads it, agrees, and acts with a rating - that might otherwise occur.

howard, i agree with your approach completely, and have benefited from it. i've been frustrated though using the critique only forum because of limited and slower feedback; photos i post for ratings get feedback -- both ratings and comments -- faster; ratings provide some quick and dirty feedback, and i find they reach a broader audience as well, which i enjoy. this has not always true, but more true than not for me. so i try to stay very distanced emotionally from ratings, but learn something from them nonetheless. i gladly put my heart into the comments process.

i guess i've reached a point where i don't see ratings as inherently bad, as i once did, just an inferior way of communicating. sometimes, when i'm sitting at night in a room waiting for one of my kids to fall asleep i rate photos, for example, because the typing will keep them up. its not worthless feedback, but it nowhere near as useful as a thoughtful comment. we are living in a virtual world which one universal language, for better or for worse, is numbers . . . i'm all for improving on that, and have campaigned for months for more attention to be paid to comments, but have had very few people join me and no response whatsoever from whoever on the site staff reads these things.

I don't entirely disagree with your points, Ben, since I do wonder why I get so little reciprocal commentary response from the many members whose photos I comment on, some in sufficient depth, off the RFC queue. but the fact is that many of these members are simply "users" and not reciprocating members of the community. and I am guilty of the same at times, especially when someone comments on one of my photos for the first time but I don't especially find their photos sufficiently interesting to reciprocate with constructive comments. and, I also have a discussion-thing for comments in that I prefer to get one in early on an uploaded photo rather than join in after others have made my points so to speak.

 

on the other hand, my approach does dissuade a lot of useless commentary of the "7/7" and "nice colors" and "congrats" variety. seems now when I see photos on the RFC, I click on the photographer and view his recent commenting history. if that exists, then perhaps I won't be wasting my time. if it does not, then I move on without commenting on the photo unless it really really moves me to do so.

well, we've wandered into similar practices, not suprisingly, in terms of commenting. here's the thing: leaving honest comments with the best of your thoughts and responding to comments with the same is about the best thing a learning, posting photographer can do to get feedback, make pals, etc. in my opinion. yes, many don't respond, perhaps forgetting that its not just about them. but i've done that plenty myself. over time, the connections build, and its great fun. the ratings are secondary; energy and time devoted to the ratings game, however well intentioned, is more likely than not to be draining in my experience. its a big enough photo.net world for everyone. enjoy, be happy, life's too short as is to take this all too seriously. in the end the lessons and friendships are the only things that mean anything at all.

Laurie i know the image in question and saw your responce. I think you did the right thing. These people also dish out retrobution for such actions, as i know only too well, but the very last thing they want is the truth printed in black and white.

 

One truth is for sure. An image cannot be made ugly or beautiful with numbers... it can't be changed in any way. Those who seek retrobution against those that speak the truth only make themselves ugly inside and their egotism which fuels their falsifying their images leaves them aware they are lying to themselves.

 

Mark... "Yet, as well as this last character, I've also been accused of stalking somebody."

 

Sending an email to a person soooooooo dumb or innocent, he would actually post that email...with the sole aim of the mail intended to encite the guy as a means to your own ends....ya, i would call that stalking in the first degree.

The commentary in Spanish says that he does not want that you answer him by post, but you should erase the commentary of his photo, otherwise the moderators will have to do it (????!!!!)

He would get the moderators to delete it because I said it wouldn't win a competition!

Of course, I'll agree once again with all lauirie and Mark have said. But I'll add this:

<p>

1) I had it all already - wish I could paste here some truly amazing emails I kept, all received along the years for my "nasty" comments and low rating, etc. I had massive retaliations as well - till people finally understood how much I care about them. I mostly had plenty of abusive replies in the gallery as well as in the forums.

<p>

2) What really ticks me off is to see that photo.net permits verbal abuse to continue - since all they do is to remove SOME (not even all) abusive posts. Sometimes a warning would be in order, as I see it.

<p>

3) End of the day, those who rate lower than 6/6s on critical pages will end up bullied by mail and publically, but what's more, as they will become too critical with PN's incredibly flawn rating system, honest users will even get bullied by the management.

<p>

4) Given all the above, give me one good reason indeed to continue rating bad images and getting involved in flame wars. Asif there was nothing better to do in life...

<p>

5) Once all honest raters and commenters will be fed up with all this, they'll drop out, and mate-raters will be free to continue...

<p>

6) And by the way, since there ARE better things to do in life, what am I still doing here writing this post...? :-)