services_photonet Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 <p>We are pleased to announce a new feature of the photo.net Gallery, "Photo Critique Circles". <p>A "Critique Circle" will be a group of 15 to 20 photo.net members, including some well-established photographers on the site as well as new members. The members of each circle will agree to post photos for critique to the Photo Critique Forum, and to critique and honestly rate all or most of the other postings by members of the same Circle. Each circle will have a private category in the Photo Critique Forum, visible only to the members of the circle -- to facilitate finding the Critique Requests of other members in the same Circle. <p>Comments and ratings on photos by other circle members will be indicated by a special icon, but otherwise will be like any other ratings and comments on photo.net. We are hoping that members of the circles will take special care to write comments and give ratings, including constructive criticism, and will not simply write "Nice photo" or "This sucks" style comments on other circle members' photos. <p>At the conclusion of each circle, each member of the circle will be asked to provide feedback on the other members of the circle. This information will not be shown publicly but will be used by photo.net staff in determining who has been a good circle "citizen" and in making decisions about the constitution of new circles. <p>The Circles will be constituted by the photo.net staff. New Circles will be formed each week, some around particular themes, and each circle will last one month. A photo.net member may be in several circles at the same time, but since membership in a circle represents a commitment to the other members of the circle, people should not join more circles at one time than they can handle. In forming new circles, preference will be given to people who have not already participated in a circle, and then to people who have successfully participated in circles in the past, based on the feedback. <p>We will start forming the first circles immediately, and they will be launched as they fill up. If you would like to join a circle, please ensure that you have uploaded some photos and have already rated and made some serious comments on photos on photo.net, so that the photo.net staff member can evaluate your skill level and interests, both as a photographer and as a critiquer/rater. We would like to have a mix of skill levels in each circle. <p>To sign up for one of the "charter" critique circles, please send email to <a href=mailto:circles@photo.net>circles@photo.net</a>. We particularly welcome interest from professional photographers and experienced amateurs, who most likely will play a prominent role in the circles. When mailing us to request membership, please indicate your skill level and your interest in any special themes or genres of photography. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gauthier Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 Voted "Best idea of the year"... by me! Anyway, I sent you my application form. Long live to that project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbb Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 <html> <body> <p>I hope this project is going to work and is not going to be continuation of popping up more of admiration societies - circles.<br> <a href="http://www.photo.net/photo/936021">http://www.photo.net/photo/936021</a><br> </p> <p>Regards, Mark</p> </p> </body> </html><div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gauthier Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 What I really like about this pic is that this admiration society seems to be made up of donkeys! Very funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william_john_smith Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 Where I come from they are known as "jackasses". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gauthier Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 The Russian word for donkey is "Ossel". In German: "Esel". In French: "Âne". Fascinating, hey? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mottershead Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 Well, this important new photo.net feature is getting off to a great start! Enough with the wise-ass comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mg Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 Mmm... It seems to me that Bob Atkins had proposed something like that a few weeks ago, BUT... he was thinking of doing this WITHOUT any ratings involved. I see a major difference here in the concept, and I share Mark Bartosik's concern about the potential new ground for the creation of new and numerous M.A. Societies...<p>On another hand I like the idea of course, and with angels around, it would surely be Heaven...:-)<p>So I ask myself: why does Photo.net propose to have these "circles" WITH ratings involved... And here's the only answer that comes to my mind: because if we would do this WITHOUT ratings, nothing would stop members from rating these images with 10/10s OUTSIDE of the circles anyway... Is that the reason behind Photo.net's decision to involve ratings here ? Just curious.<p>Second question: How does Photo.net intend to prevent mutual admiration societies to be formed in the suggested context ?<p>My participation to these circles would depend on Photo.net's answers to these questions. Right now, it seems pretty obvious to me that the concern Mark Bartosik expressed has to be taken very seriously, and I'd almost bet my bottom dollar that this great idea will be abused.<p>Hope you can prove me wrong here...<p>If I may suggest something here, it would be this:<p>a) Circles of 15 people (fixed number). Means each member has to critique 14 images per month, and MUST critique all 14 images.b) Each member can use at most 10 ratings below 5 out of 14 ratings.c) Each member can use only 1 10/10 if any.d) Each member can use only 1 10/9 or 9/10 if any.e) Each member can use only (at most) 2 9/9 if any.f) Each member can us only 2 8/9 or 9/8 - if any.g) Each member can use only (at most) 3 8/8 - if he hasn't used 9s and 10s. Or 2 at most if he has used any 9s and 10s.h) Each member can use only 3 7/8 if he hasn't used 9s & 10s. Or only 2 if he has used 9s and 10s.i) As many 6s can be used as one wishes to.<p>Basically, more or less limiting the number of high ratings in the circles - though the above might need to be revised a little.<p>If people can start rubber stamping around, I'm just not interested. If Photo.net has a way to control this problem, I would like to know which one, and I'll be fine. Or no ratings involved at all on the images critiqued in circles, and I'm fine too. Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
himalaya Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 Mike, well the first circle is filling up fast, but I reckon I can hold a spot open for you. By the way, probably the mail kicked back because you sent it to cicles@photo.net rather circles@photo.net. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
himalaya Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 I should add that Brian got me to volunteer to set up the first few circles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mottershead Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 Marc, I very much doubt that the people who sign up for these circles will just be "rubber stamping" around. The reason that people will be asked to rate (not obligatory) is simply so that the circles will be a way for people to build up a set of honest ratings for their photos. The circles will be somewhat self-policing when it comes to ratings and comments, since the circle members will be seeing the ratings and comments of others in the circle (as will the "public"), and I believe the circle members will be trying to maintain their credibility with the other circle members. Also, since photo.net staff knows who are in the circles, if we notice that a circle is becoming a rating gang, we can step and take the appropriate action. But I don't think this will happen. The circles will have some of the elements of the mutual admiration societies in that they will provide a way for people to get ratings and comments. The difference, I hope, is that by being organized and visible, they will be more honest and the feedback more useful than the mutual admiration societies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mg Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 "The circle members will be seeing the ratings and comments of others in the circle (as will the "public"), and I believe the circle members will be trying to maintain their credibility with the other circle members."<p>Honestly, since some people don't even try to maintain any credibility site-wide, I don't see why they would do so in circles. But well, no harm trying if we can get out, I guess... So I'll email to register, and let's see... Hoping for the best... Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
root Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 A person's ability to critique a photo is based to a large extent on his/her familiarity with the techniques involved in a given style. I've offered detailed critques that cover visual design, mostly. On the other hand, I wouldn't know what to offer in the way of street photography, studio setups, etc. I was all set to post a proposal that sets up categories for the purpose of critiquing, much like the ones we already have. I'm convinced that many luke warm ratings are offered by photographers who simply don't relate to a particular style. I'd like to participate but, I hope to do it not only in the context of similar interests, but in terms of light, composition and subject, not whether or not it's pretty and/or you've seen it before. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellery_chua___singapore Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 Despite all the misgivings about the circle idea, its has some potential. Photo.net is probably the largest community but the size and volume act and the extreme range of skills and taste levels of its members in the case of critques acts against it. No matter how interested who can spare the time to waddle through even 60% of what is posted each day AND still be bothered to comment ? Most would look through what 50 or 100 just to see what is out there; linger longer at what looks good to them , a small few will post ratings and comments. From the genre you can roughly guess if there will be comments ect - pretty girls will get a resopnse, anything else is heavily dependent on taste, inclination and willingness to offer feedback. The other issue besides the MA thing is the appreciation level thing - in say ratings done via man in the street vs working pro in the area of weddings or portraiture pictures the Master Photographers Association of UK oresentation in one of the years I mangage to get to see show a wide gulf in taste. Hope the initative works, trust that participants would do the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sliu Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 I am very serious about photography although I never used SLR or RF before. Digital non-SLR is my tool. I want to join a circle for digtial non-SLR shooters like me. BTW, can I only give out comments instead of ratings? I admit I didn't comment too many photos at present, but I will be more responsible and helpful if I am in a group of serious shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeroen wesdorp Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 <i>"New Circles will be formed each week, some around particular themes, and each circle will last one month."</i><br><br> This is a very interesting idea, which I hope will work. I think it might trick me into participating more actively. Whether including ratings or not will make a big difference I am not sure. Shouldn't we just give it a try? Rating within the circles can always be disabled, I suppose. But I am left with some questions. Brian, you mention different circles for different themes (or level of competence, sarcasm, or whatever). But how can we find out which we can join? What's on offer? And perhaps even, who has already joined?<br><br> Anyway, great initiative. Thanks to you and the rest of PN staff for all your work! Regards, Jeroen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_oliver Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 The PN staff is trying very hard and making some good changes and trialing some things. Lets not knock them! I am indeed very pleased to see that this is happening. The turnaround from the road to "internet wasteland" is happenning thanks to the serious efforts of the people that run this site! Hats off to PN for accomplishing good change in a very very challenging social environment. Lets see how this goes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich815 Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 This sounds like an idea that has great potential. Part of the problem over the last year or so has been the huge increase in the general membership and the resulting anonimity this has created. This initiative could help to create a deeper sense of responsibility and meaning to the critiques and also foster building closer relationships amongst members hopefully resulting in greater respect for each other. I have sent an email asking to be involved. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce_hamm Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 Twice (last night and again this morning) I've tried to register through the email link above and both times my message has been bounced. Could someone at Services Photonet look into what's the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mottershead Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 We've already received 40 requests for circle membership so far: a great start! There is apparently a strong demand for this. What I think we will do is start four circles on Monday, a little below full-strength, then add a few new people to them next week until each one is up to 15. The four initial circles will be basically "general" rather than organized around a single theme or genre, but we will try to put people with somewhat common interests (and aversions ;-) ) in the four circles. If you already signed up, look for a mail on Monday explaining what you need to do to start. If you haven't signed up yet, it isn't too late, and we can use a few more beginners and intermediate people at this point. My supposition is that a range of levels is better than a more homogenous membership. Beginners benefit from critique by more experienced people, and also from reading the critiques by experienced people of one another. And I think experienced people will benefit from mentoring the less experienced, even if the images don't end up as their favorites on photo.net. If interest remains strong, we will kick off more circles later. Incidentally, each circle will have a private forum that members can use to introduce themselves to one another and discuss anything else that doesn't seem to belong as a comment on a specific photo. Once the circles are rolling, I'll call for a volunteer from each circle to be the moderator of the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel flather Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 Ditto, bounced for me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gauthier Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 My mail didn't bounce, but I didn't any confirmation it arrived either. Oh well. I'll see on Monday. I can understand some of Marc's feelings - will it degenerate? - but I still believe it's the best new feature PN has introduced since I'm on this site (one year) and I'm ready to give it a serious try. The fact that the circles are not permanent and that problem individuals won't be allowed in new circles seems a sufficient safeguard at this point. I hope that there will be enough advanced photographers in each circle. A beginner can progress with almost any comment, but past a certain point of expertise, not every one can offer a valid or useful comment and that becomes frustrating. Lack of familiarity with certain advanced techniques can also become an issue. Brian, can you explain how circle members will be evaluated and what you'll do with these reports? It seems like a lot of work for such a small group of volunteers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mottershead Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 It's odd that some messages to circles@photo.net are bouncing, because so far 43 of them have gotten through, including some from people who had bounces on the first attempts. If somebody kept the bounce message and can send it to me, that might help. From the response so far, I would guess that there are going to be several fairly senior people (pros and semi-pros) in each circle, and quite a few describing themselves as intermediate or advanced amateurs. If anything, there will be a shortage of beginners. Maybe the beginners are intimidated because I haven't made it seem that the circles will welcome them. I hope we will get a few more beginners. Basically, as far as the evaluation questionaires are concerned, at the end, we are simply going to ask people some open-ended questions about the other people in the circle -- whether they felt the other people gave sincere and useful comments and what their "level" seemed to be, who from the circle might be a strong contributor to a future circle. The main reason for doing this is to weed out anyone who significantly diminishes the enjoyment or usefulness of the experience for the other people, and also to be able to seed enough people with strong feedback into future circles. That type of thing -- don't worry about it too much. Since everybody involved in the circles seems to be looking for honest and constructive feedback and not just ego-boosting praise (which can also be nice), that doesn't mean that people who are honest will be ejected from the future circles -- on the contrary. But if someone is too harsh, non-specific, or non-constructive with his critiques, or is way off in left field a lot of the time, or reacts negatively or defensively to constructive feedback from others, then we'd like to hear about that so it can be taken into account in setting up future circles. Incidentally, everybody who has sent us a message so far is "in", and I apologize for not acknowledging all the mails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mottershead Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 Okay, well circles@photo.net is actually an alias for a group of several mailboxes, one of which is at MIT. The MIT server has been intermittently down the last two days, and accounts for the intermittent problems people have been having with this address. In theory, it should be OK now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mg Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 I liked very much the idea to have antagonistic kinds of photographers within a same circle. For quite a while, I've been hoping for good critiques from senior people here who are shooting exactly what I'd never shoot in my life... or at least hoping for critiques about the works I've produced which they would never want to produce...:-) Moment of truth soon hopefully... It seems to be heading in a very interesting direction so far. <p> I agree as well that beginners are needed in each circle, since I'd say that they are probably the first ones who should theoretically be interested in these circles. When I read that not many registered, I was surprised, and wondered whether there would be a chance, that most members haven't read this thread. It may be worth trying to make this annoucement more obvious - possibly it could appear on each individual's workspace or such. I get the feeling that the news needs to be spread a bit more. Just an idea... Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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