Angry Subjects who want Your Film!

While working for the maine photographic workshops, some street

photographer told a story that while in Chinatown in SF she took a

photograph of somebodies elderly grandmother, and, for whatever

culteral or personal reasons the adult grandchild became irate and

demanded her film. Soon a small moab of supporters gathered so she

wound the film in her Leica and removed an unexposed roll and somehow,

with the slight of hand, managed to give the son the unexposed roll

while keeping the exposed one.

 

This story has certainly left an impact on me, furthering my

assumption that street photography is something to fear: I just am not

that ballsy!

 

I'm just curious, is this a concern that many street photographers

have? Have any of you run into this problem? I don't think that it is

fair that one person should take an entire afternoons work just

because he did not like one subject! With my view camera I can take

off the film holder and expose that frame, or if I am feeling really

sleezy, advance the film and expose the next frame (likewise expose a

sheet I did not use). But it is kind of hard to sneek up on someone

with a view camera, and (i would imagine) people are usually less

suspicious of LF photographers, what father stabbing mother raping

sicko stalks his prey with a 14lb camera??

 

So, I am left with my 35mm camera, an SLR, which looks all the more

threatening! I could advance the frame, remove the lens and expose,

and tell them that was teh frame I made of whatever they objected to,

but would your normal Joe realise what is hapening? With a film holder

it's pretty obvious, the roll is RIGHT THERE, you can touch it, sheets

can be handed to the person for insepction, but 35mm is a machine in

the truest sense, and I am not certain Joe would understand that the

film even COULD be exposed like this, after all, it's impossible with

a P/S.

 

What is the best aproach to, one, avoiding a similar situation and,

two, what to do if they demand the frame?

 

(I know this does not happen often)

<i>What is the best aproach to, one, avoiding a similar situation . . .</i><p>

 

Never leave the house.<p>

 

<i>. . . and, two, what to do if they demand the frame? </i><P>

 

Treat it like you would if they demanded you give them all the money in your wallet (or any other illegal and threatening demand): decide whether what they want is worth the hassles and risk of whatever they will probably do if you refuse their demand. If you're in a public, crowded place, see if you can get them to call police to the scene.

bravo!<br>

It's a completely correct answer from the legal point of view.<br>

Everything "in the street" (public place, to be precise) and visible "from the street" is fair game; even when you are on private property the owner or his agent can only deman that you stop taking photographs (and you'll be tresspassing after the warning if you persist), but cannot under any circumstances demand you equipment and/or film that has already been exposed.<br>

Call the police if they are unreasonable. Carry a printout with text itemizing the legal points for the more reasonable ones.

<p>

<br>

 

The Photographer's Right - A Downloadable Flyer

<p>

Your Rights When Stopped or Confronted for Photography

<br>

The right to take photographs is now under assault more than ever. People are being stopped, harassed, and even intimidated into handing over their personal property simply because they were taking photographs of subjects that made other people uncomfortable. Recent examples include photographing industrial plants, bridges, and vessels at sea. For the most part, attempts to restrict photography are based on misguided fears about the supposed dangers that unrestricted photography presents to society.

<p>

Ironically, unrestricted photography by private citizens has played an integral role in protecting the freedom, security, and well being of all Americans. Photography in the United States has contributed to improvements in civil rights, curbed abusive child labor practices, and provided information important to investigating crimes. These images have not always been pretty and often have offended the sensibilities of governmental and commercial interests who had vested interests in a status quo that was adverse to the majority in our country.

<p>

Photography has not contributed to a decline in public safety or economic vitality in the United States. When people think back to the acts of terrorism that have occurred over the last forty years, none have depended on or even involved photography. Restrictions on photography would have not prevented any of these acts. Similarly, some corporations have a history of abusing the rights of photographers under the guise of protecting their trade secrets. These claims are almost always bogus since entities are required to keep trade secrets from public view if they want to protect them. Trade secret laws do not give anyone the right to persecute photographers.

<p>

The Photographer's Right is a downloadable guide that is loosely based on the ACLU's Bust Card and the Know Your Rights flyer. It may be downloaded and printed out using Adobe Acrobat Reader. You may make copies and carry them your wallet, pocket or camera bag to give you quick access to your rights and obligations concerning confrontations over photography. You may distribute the guide to others provided that such distribution is not done for commercial gain and credit is given to the author.

<p>

http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

<p>

BERT P. KRAGES, ATTORNEY AT LAW<br>

6665 S.W. Hampton Street, Suite 200<br>

Portland, Oregon 97223<br>

...do 50 or 60 push-ups a day: build up your arms and chest. The folks in the street will keep away from you!

 

 

Or you can 'fib' a bit and say you were shooting the doorway up the street and did not have 'granny' in the frame. Then exit the scene.

That didn't answer much of the question. Lots of words and not much else.

 

Take a look at the work of great online street shooters like Grant Lamos, Mike Dixon, Rob Appleby, Brad Evans, and ignore the advice of the rest.

Mike Dixon is also who I would listen to.

 

When confronted now, I assess who it is doing the threating

gesture, and in 90% of the cases I simply and firmly walk away

without arguing any point with the person. A crowd can gather

only if it has time to.

 

If the person persists, then it's Mike's approach that is most

sane. In today's lunatic world, staunchly standing up for your

rights may not have you standing at all.

That's only happened to me once on a nude beach in Florida. A guy came over to me and told me he didn't want me photographing him or the two women he was with. I agreed not to, after all, what's another pair of tits.

 

Later on he came back to steer me to some people who had breasts and penises and like to be photographed. Maybe they hadn't finished taking all their shots prepratory to the surgery? So, I got their pictures. Not getting into an argument with the guy in the first place led to having a better photographic experience.

"sorry it's digital and there's no film folks."

I like the answer that suggests looking at good examples because it puts the focus on what is important in street photography. Once you have formulated a clear idea of why you are doing it, the rest falls into place more easily. The purpose you define will also help to form your technique.

<br>   

In my case, my purpose is to make images of people going about their normal business with as little intrusion as possible. The main technique I employ is usually called hip shooting. I hang the camera around my neck, use fast film, set the aperture at f16, the speed at 1/500 and the focus at the hyperfocal distance of about 10 feet. I make small adjustments, depending on the light and subject as needed. I usually steady the camera with just one hand with my thumb resting on the shutter release.

<br>   

That is the shooting position, and I do not move anything other than my thumb. It may sound haphazard, but a little practice will allow framing shots with surprising accuracy. I often print full frame.

<br>   

Digital usually works pretty well, but my own preference is for a small and unobtrusive mechanical camera with a fixed lens and a quiet leaf shutter. That also fits into the image of what I want to project on the street, that of a non-threatening tourist or photonerd, which is what I am. People see me walking around with my hand on a camera and they know I am probably taking pictures, <i>but they don't know exactly what I am taking pictures of, and they don't know exactly when I take the picture.</i> Occasionally, I make eye contact with subjects, and they may give me a quizzical look or a smile, but the reaction is not significantly different from from the normal fleeting encounters you have with people on the street. The question of whether or not I have recorded the moment does not arise.

<br>   

Some examples of my technique are in my "<a href="http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=328355">on the border</a>" folder.

"Some examples of my technique..."

 

I wish I had thought of that 30 years ago! :-)

 

 

Check out... www.fullframeimages.com

A guy on a beach once came over and asked me not to take pictures of him and his girl friends. I said okay. That disappointed him: he didn't care about the pictures, he was looking for a fight. So he began to tell me about his karate training, how he could tear off my head and hand it to me, etc. I listened patiently, nodding, which frustrated him even more. Fortunately, the park patrol came past at this time, and he ran after them to argue with THEM about something.

 

Moral is: the nuts are out there. Carry a weapon.

... like a Zorki or a FED ;-)

If you just ASK people if you can make a photo of them before you make the photo, they will feel more comfortable and you don't have to behave like a stalker, which will also make YOU feel more comfortable... it's incredible how far some people go in cloaking and stalking techniques just to avoid asking a simple question.

<p>Put yourself in the shoes of the subject being photographed. How would you react if you notice someone is stalking you and trying to photograph you? I'd certainly think (s)he is a weirdo and I'd probably get angry. And what if someone comes up to you, makes contact with you, chats a bit and asks if (s)he can take a photo?

<p>regards

"If you just ASK people if you can make a photo of them before you make the photo, they will feel more comfortable and you don't have to behave like a stalker..."

<br><br>***<br>

I know this is an issue which will never be resolved, but I'll make just one comment on the above judgment. Aside from the summary moral judgment there is also a confusion apparent here on what is being discussed. The approach suggested is fine, but it has nothing to do with street photography. Rather it is impromptu environmental portraiture. That is a technique used very effectively, for instance, by the great Brazilian photographer,Sebastiao Salgado.

<br>   

Street photography, as practiced by HCB, Haas, Winograd, et al aims at capturing the ephemeral moment, sometimes to produce a graphic image that will never be repeated, and sometimes to reveal something important and enduring about the human condition. Seeing the the elements of the composition and recording the event take place in the blink of an eye.

<I>"A guy on a beach once came over and asked me not to take pictures of him and his girl friends. I said okay. That disappointed him: he didn't care about the pictures, he was looking for a fight. So he began to tell me about his karate training, how he could tear off my head and hand it to me, etc. I listened patiently, nodding, which frustrated him even more. Fortunately, the park patrol came past at this time, and he ran after them to argue with THEM about something.

 

Moral is: the nuts are out there. Carry a weapon."</I>

<p>If it makes you feel any better, this dude is either dead already, or will be soon. Dorks like him don't realize there's always somebody badder and meaner, and it's just a matter of time before they run into a bigger problem than they bargained for.

That's probably true, Al. I have a feeling, however, that this guy picked his fights carefully. At that time, I was having bad health, was ghastly pale, and weighed--at six feet tall--less than 140 pounds. I mean, he was practically challenging an invalid! At any rate, you remind me of a quotation: "If you choose to live by the sword, you had better carry a big one--because all the swords will be out for you."

Twin lens reflex camera - the best street photography camera ever. Face 90-degrees away from your subject with your camera hanging around your neck. Turn the camera towards the subject. You'll appear, to those who aren't looking closely, to be taking a picture of something in an entirely different direction.

<i>You'll appear, to those who aren't looking closely, to be taking a picture of something in an entirely different direction.</i>

 

<p>

I can just feel the empathy in photos taken like this. I think these supposed 'stealth' techniques are actually more confrontational than simply taking the photograph. Best used on the subway or to catch a drug deal in action.

</p>

<p>

I asked my neighbor if I could photograph him and his motorcycle. It would have been creepy to spy on him with a telephoto lens and I'm sure I would be pissed if I caught someone doing that to my family. Yet if they just said, "Can I take a picture of you and your daughter?" we'd probably try and give them a nice smile.

</p>

As someone who shoots on the street a lot, I'd say there's a lot of bad advice on this thread.

 

First of all, don't ever carry a weapon if you work bad neighborhoods. It's the fastest way to end up dead. Look at someone like Eugene Richards, who works gang areas and doesn't carry a weapon. He's alive because he doesn't.

 

I've worked in gang and drug dealing neighborhoods, and what makes it work is trust. Everyone knows the only thing I'm doing is taking photographs, and I won't photograph them doing criminal activities. I've had people press against me, handle my camera, ask me what I'm doing, but I just tell them and wait for the tension to decrease.

 

If I showed a weapon, I'd be dead in seconds. There's a lot more of them than me.

 

Second, while I do a fair amount of surreptitious shooting, it's never with people I consider dangerous. I always let them know what I'm doing. It doesn't change what I get photographs of, they go on with their lives and I shoot.

 

Third, a digicam with a swivel screen is far better for surreptitious shooting than a TLR.

Models get paid good money for doing what you want these people to do for free, and

without their consent. It would seem a certain amount of concern for their feelings is

warranted. You might think that your 'afternoons work' is more valuable then their

likeness, but they could well disagree.

 

If you use phrases like 'sleezy' and 'stalks his prey' to describe your own actions, I

don't blame them for resenting you.

 

I bet you could talk them out of wanting your negatives, but by being 'sneaky' you are

confirming their bad opinion of you.

 

Thank You Kindly,

 

Topher

<<First of all, don't ever carry a weapon if you work bad neighborhoods>>

 

WHO SUGGESTED THAT??? Dear god that is a horrible idea! I was working in a bad neighborhood just a few nights ago, not shooting people, but there certainly were hoolagans about ... some even harassed me some... I just turned as i walked to not make them feel I was ignoring them or let them realise that I was a bit scared... and kept on my way. I'd feel ten times more uneasy if I had a gun in my pocket!

 

If someone tried to take my camera I might beat them with it (gotta love 6 pound cameras, heard it's constructed from brass, on 3 pound tripods, and yes, I have considered this because I shoot at night often in a town full of junkies) but seriously, my exposed film is just NOT so important to take that risk!

<i>WHO SUGGESTED THAT???</i><p>

 

Maybe you didn't read the responses completely:<p>

 

 

 

<i>At any rate, you remind me of a quotation: "If you choose to live by the sword, you had better carry a big one--because all the swords will be out for you."</i>

No Jeff, I simply did not take the saying literally ...

Well one thing I have learned and really need to LEARN....is that yes these cameras are out lives as photographers and so is the film but in the case of the mob etc.....our lives are more important. SO at all times be prepared for loss and have back up ready. If you are broke like me then pray you never loose anything but still accept that life has no gaurantees and be prepared for anything to happen........still it does not hurt to try avoiding those situations if you can. In the case of being physically threatened I would say lie your way out of it, talk them down, anything just walk away from it and don't even think of taking any more pictures for 4 or 5 blocks later....Also travel in pairs or have an assistant with you, there is more security in numbers anyways.

 

Well thats my 2 cents for ya, hope it helps.

I do street photography with a mamiya RZ, which is the least inconspicuous camera ever made. Before this I used an old bronica, with the legendary "car door" mirror crash with each shot.

 

Most of the time, I am so obviously shooting photographs that the people I am photographing have seen and started ignoring me. Time is a big friend in this way. There are some shots that I could not have gotten if I had been noticed, though, and I still take those.

 

I have been confronted by people who were unhappy to be photographed. I build my entire response to frame what I am doing as Art. I always carry an ilford box full of 80 or 100 black and white prints of similar neighborhoods and try to absorb them into looking at them. (I tend to focus on very small neighborhoods for a long time, and I almost always have photographs of someone they know.) I usually try to make copies of prints of people I shoot, and I have had many people realize that they have seen my shots in their friends' living rooms. Though I have been approached very angrily, I have had many very warm experiences grow from those times.

 

The trickiest incidents involve people who pretty clearly turn out to be mentally ill, clinically paranoid. As I get to know a neighborhood, I get a sense of who is rational and who is not, but sometimes a paranoid will approach me with accusations ("I know what you are REALLY doing with that damn camera.") even though I have never come close to actually photographing them. In those cases, I just look slightly away, breaking eye contact without turning my back, say "Nice to see you, enjoy the afternoon," and move along.