Angry, defensive, bitter.

<p>Why do I see this whenever I visit this part of photo.net? Is this a "professionals only" forum, or is a place for everyone to share and learn? I visit other areas of photo.net (Minolta, Pentax, Medium Format, Film) and don't see it there. Shame.</p>

<p>Countless people here are helpful and supportive of others which appears to contribute to the success of the site as far as I can tell. Perhaps there is a perception issue after viewing certain posts. I wouldn't let it bother you. Its easy to ignore posts that seem unhelpful and utilize those that are.</p>

<p>What are you referring to, Richard? If you are talking about the "Gear Setup" thread, the fact that established photographers don't think it is wise for someone with no real wedding experience (not only real, but evidenced by the kind of questions asked) to shoot a wedding for pay, isn't exactly new or just formed in this forum.</p>

<p>It also isn't just because these established pros want to be mean. It is a genuine warning, because we have all heard of horror stories about the new photographer who got not only grief from clients, but got into legal trouble.</p>

<p>Yes, some of the responses in the thread are a bit harsh, but most are reasonable. We also express opinions on photo.net forums--all kinds of opinions. As long as one does not attack another, these opinions can co-exist. As always, the OP can take what he chooses to take, and leave the rest.</p>

<p>I would also point out that the other forums you mentioned are not endeavors connected to running a business. This is not a 'professionals only' forum, obviously, and I don't see the responses given being weighted toward professionals only. Look at the numerous past threads in the "Newcomers' section. Much information has been offered freely by those professionals.</p>

It may sound harsh, but it's only tough love. Sometimes someone with too little knowledge and experience NEEDS to be

told that taking on a wedding assignment is really not a good idea. The questions being asked make it clear who is and

who isn't ready. A wedding is not the same as, say, product photography which can simply be redone until its right. There

is the saying that if you don't have anything nice to say, to say nothing, but in the case of ill advised wedding

photography, saying nothing would promote a possible crash and burn, which isn't any good for either the wedding couple

or the photographer.

Richard, I agree some posts on here can be a little...um...salty? I am of the mindset you catch more flies with honey, and

so it always makes sense to be fairly nice,especially because it is hard to get the right tone online. But sometimes people

only have limited time and tire of seeing the same types of posts over and over. I think that sometimes leads to

responses that are more of a knee jerk reaction. This can be tough on newbs to pnet, but it is tough LOVE. While some

people have said harsh things to me on here, I keep coming back because I learned from those comments. Sometimes

because they had very valid points, and sometimes just learning that not everyone is going to love what you do. I don't

think the "if you don't have something nice to say then don't say anything at all" really applies in a forum like this.

Constructive criticism is very helpful. If everyone told me my stuff was perfect then I would never learn or get better. The

voice of those who have been there before who can point out possible follies before they happen is so important. Some

of it is given with kid gloves on, and others just let it rip. I try to give reasoning behind my advice. That advice sometimes

is, don't take this job. That shouldn't be taken as a huge insult. I wrote mine as frank posted. Apparently we were of like minds ;)

<p>See what?</p>

See what, what?

<p>First of all, you neglected to reference a specific thread or comment so we had some idea of why you said this. Second of all, everyone above me is right, and is bevaving professionally! I've not liked some comments/criticism, and later found out that the information was correct, and had to acquiese to a lack of knowledge in that area. I learned from aforementioned comments, and everyone else can do the same thing.</p>

<p>"this", Frank....that's what.</p>

<p>I'm not a pro and have nothing to do with wedding photography, but I drop in to read the postings because some of the best and most honest advice is dished out here for free. Some people would surely benefit by swallowing their pride and taking high-quality feedback to heart.</p>

Ah yes, this tough love / frank advice.

<p>I answer as I see it. And I've seen a lot of it...</p>

<p>Ah, yes Vail.....but why do you want to attract flies in the first place...?</p>

<p>Richard,<br>

Please let us know what is/has caused yor pain? I am not making fun of you, but unless we know what the problem(s) are, we can not help you.<br>

So again, please tell us what is bothering you.<br>

I have been a member of Pnet since 2007, and have had a very few posters that were, well lets just say were not very helpful. On the other hand, I have received much help from many posters on this forum as well as all the other forums I check into regularly.</p>

<p>Perhaps an example would help?</p>

<p>At the start of the wedding season of 2010, I was contacted by a photographer/enthusiasts who had volunteered to shoot a family member's wedding because of economic need. He heeded the warnings here on the P.net wedding forum. Didn't matter if it was vinegar or honey in delivery ... he got the point.</p>

<p>While somewhat accomplished, he recognized the need to become proficient and comfortable regarding a wedding shoot before the fact, not after. A family member in tears was not the goal. </p>

<p>So he asked to assist me that summer to prep him for his end of summer wedding. He handled my off camera lighting, and did all sorts of helpful things ... and I explained why I was doing something ... often in the car going there or coming back.</p>

<p>Net result was he even devised an off camera beauty dish which he built himself for next to nothing, and pulled off a professional level job for his relative ... then showed me the work so I could further comment and teach him some post processing techniques.</p>

<p>He refused payment when offered. It was a win-win for both of us.</p>

<p>BTW, I am photographing his daughter's wedding in 2012 : -) </p>

<p>Robert, it's comments like these:</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>Ah, yes Vail.....but why do you want to attract flies in the first place...?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>that I think Richard has problems with. I get that you are trying to be funny. But when it's typed out as a post, it can come across as mean spirited rather than funny. Also, I don't find comments like that to be particularly constructive. Now in the pnet bylaws there's nothing that says you have to limit your comments to being constructive, you should be able to express your opinion, but don't be surprised when others then respond with, "ignore what Robert had to say." I think you are an excellent photographer who likely has a great deal of knowledge to share, but people might write off what you have to say because your comments are often snippy. That's my 2 cents at least. Hopefully you are one of the flies my honey has caught ;) Maybe it was tasty food for thought. Ok this metaphor has been beaten to death. </p>

<p>Angry, defensive and bitter is a reasonable description for all the full time wedding photographers I personally know. I mostly second shoot / assist. When it's meal break I prefer to sit with the musicians, because they are generally cheerful people who enjoy what they're doing. Eating with a photographer is listening to an endless litany of complaints about clients, competitors at their price point taking their clients, competitors who started shooting 15 minutes ago and charge next to nothing taking their clients, it's too hot, it's too cold, the food is rotten, their back hurts, why can't life be simple like it was when we shot film (I'm old and generally work with other old folks.)...after 5 minutes you want to go off and shoot still lifes of stacked glasses at the bar. Seriously, of all the shooters I know, who have been doing this for 10 +years and don't have a day job, almost of them are doing this only because they don't know how to do anything else.</p>

<p>Richard, I know what you mean about getting weird reactions on some forums...all around the internet. Personally, I'm upset at the "medical" forums on another website. Long-story-short, I have a bit of experience cooking and also hunting, so a friend asked me to perform a minor surgery on her older dog. So I go on a forum to ask a few "professional" vets some simple advice and POW....everyone is jumping all over me. Go figure some people.</p>

<p>You may also check</p>

<p>http://www.photo.net/business-photography-forum/</p>

<p>as the business forum is kind of related to making money with your photography gear.</p>

<p> </p>

<p><strong>Bruce Rubenstein: "Angry, defensive and bitter is a reasonable description for all the full time wedding photographers I personally know. I mostly second shoot / assist. When it's meal break I prefer to sit with the musicians, because they are generally cheerful people who enjoy what they're doing."</strong></p>

<p>I wonder how many photographers you second shoot for or assist, because you seem to feel that they represent the norm. Perhaps if you ever rely on wedding photography as your sole source of income you will have a better understanding of why some practitioners feel how they do, though I think this is a feature of the lower end of the market. Still, the photographers you have so much contempt for are at least proving useful to you, in that they're giving you opportunities and experience upon which you can build your own future.</p>

<p>My experience has been the complete opposite, I know a great many wedding and portrait photographers and they are the most talented, generous, positive people I could wish to meet. Many of them exist in this forum and I find the OP's comments to be nonsensical (though I will concede that other areas of Photo.net can be unsavoury).</p>

<p>@Bruce: “Angry, defensive and bitter is a reasonable description for all the full time wedding photographers I personally know.” Made me laugh :)</p>

<p>@John: “Countless people here are helpful and supportive of others which appears to contribute to the success of the site as far as I can tell” Completely agree. I don’t want it to seem like I’m ignoring that, I just think things could be better, from the odd time that I stop by.</p>

<p>@Vail: “Salty”, perhaps :). I think you’re a good example, from what I’ve seen in a handful of occasions. You always seem positive, cheerful, polite. And that’s all I’m really getting at here, I’m not talking about taking constructive criticism, far from it.</p>

<p>It’s just the little remarks that seem to pop up (perhaps I’ve just been unlucky to see them). I won’t point out any specific examples as it’s not particularly fair, and those that read any more frequently than me (I imagine you all do) should know what I mean. It just seems spiteful, almost childish and petty – not how you’d speak to someone first hand, which is partly what I’m getting at.</p>

<p>Yes, this is the internet and not reality, no one will argue that, but it doesn’t give one the excuse to be openly rude in how you talk to someone. Someone mentioned perception, and perhaps that is part of it, I might be more sensitive to such things, but I don’t think being polite really costs one anything, so I see no need to tolerate anything otherwise.</p>

<p>I guess the other part is that some mention “they read the same thing over and over again”. I can understand that. I’m part of another forum and if I read about noise at 100% from those who have never printed an image I will probably be pretty angry, defensive and bitter myself ;-). But I don’t read them, I just move on if I can’t be bothered to put things informatively and politely. Better to be blunt that nothing at all? I agree to an extent, nothing wrong with being blunt and honest, as long as it’s polite… “IMHO”….</p>

<p>Thanks for the response, Vail.....let me see if I can explain without upsetting anyone...</p>

<p>PhotoNet is a wonderful place from a number of perspectives. Many come with a true desire to learn about the artform we all love so much.....and it is very good that they should.</p>

<p>Still....in respect of the site itself, and the people here who have put the time and effort into becoming proficient in their work, there should be respect shown by the poser of questions as well as those who reply.</p>

<p>An increasing number of questions are so m*****c that it's pretty plain the OP has put no thought whatever into searching for an answer of some sort before coming here. And that's disrespectful to us and to the forum.</p>

<p>How can a person take seriously, and respect, questions that border on imbecility?</p>

<p>I have just become ....saturated.....I guess with the number of such posts that I see here. And, while I have really great respect for the patience and integrity of the many who try to help these op's, I have come to to see much of it as throwing Pearls before Swine.</p>

<p>Yet, I don't like to just avoid some of the forums either.....There is much of interest to me in the wedding forum, and I hate to just turn it off. Wedding forums are not the place for many of the questions we get......Beginners forum would be more appropriate.</p>

<p>I have become a wee bit cynical of how much help any of us can be to so many of the posters I refer to. It's like trying to teach your cat how to do algebra!</p>

<p>So....that's my rant for today. Respects to everyone...Robert</p><div></div>

<p>Richard, if you mean the occasional "childish, spiteful and petty" remark, IMHO, that is not limited to this forum. This kind of remark is all over the forums--<strong>any</strong> online forum. Not everyone is grown up enough to move on rather than respond 'with ego'. That's life. I don't think this forum has any more of this kind of remark than others.</p>

<p>The issue of established wedding photographers responding in anger and bitterness toward new wedding photographers is a whole different ball of wax.</p>

<p>If I may step in and clarify a few things from "Photo.net's" point of view.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>An increasing number of questions are so m*****c that it's pretty plain the OP has put no thought whatever into searching for an answer of some sort before coming here. And that's disrespectful to us and to the forum.<br>

How can a person take seriously, and respect, questions that border on imbecility?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>The solution here is to simply not respond to those questions if you do not think them worthy of response. If someone wants to take the time to answer them, then more power to them. If nobody wants to help, perhaps they will rethink their approach. There is no "this question has already been answered so your post has been deleted" rule on photo.net. I know that many regular members of forums get tired of seeing basic questions come up over and over, but that is simply the way of internet forums. And really, if we deleted everything that had already been discussed once before, what would there be to talk about?</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Wedding forums are not the place for many of the questions we get......Beginners forum would be more appropriate.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>The wedding forum is for questions about wedding photography. Any wedding photography, basic or complex, is welcome here and should be considered on-topic. The beginners forum should be viewed as an optional location for those who do not wish to subject themselves to some of the more "blunt" talk that tends to come out of the other forums. From the Beginner Questions forum's description:</p>

 

<blockquote>

<h2>About This Forum</h2>

<p>This forum is intended to be used by beginners who have basic photographic questions. For the most part, these should be about photographic technique or theory. "What should I buy" type questions stand a good chance of being sent to a forum dealing with that specific sort of equipment. Critique requests should be made in the <a href="../photo-critique-forum/">Photo Critique forum</a>.<br>

Rude or unhelpful posts will be deleted, and rude and unhelpful posters will be suspended from the forum. Threads that don't fit the "beginner" designation will be moved to a more appropriate forum. In short, this forum is much more tightly moderated than other Photo.net forums.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>It is not required that beginners ask beginner questions in the beginner forum. As long as they are on-topic, beginner questions can and should be asked in any forum. The beginner forum just exists as an option for those who would like to have their question handled in a slightly more...shall we say..."gentle" way.</p>

<p>@Robert: "Yet, I don't like to just avoid some of the forums either.....There is much of interest to me in the wedding forum, and I hate to just turn it off." A good question in itself... How does one find the balance between being blut, polite, contructive, whilst trying to improve the value of the environment? I certainly don't know.<br>

@Nadine: So very true. Again, perhaps I'm just overly sensitive, as it's common place I guess. I'm not one to dwell on the negatives, I'm a very positive person in day-to-day, and I acknowledge that the positives well out weight the negatives here. Some things just seem unnecessary, and I thought well... you always want things to improve, so why can't we discuss it? It's been interesting to read your thoughts, so I hope it's been of some value to others, if anything just to contemplate the suggestion.</p>