Am I getting ripped off?

<p>I am a professional photographer and have owned my own business for 4 years. Recently another photographer came to me and wanted to know if I would be interested in being a second shooter for a group she is forming. The group would have about 5-6 photographers and then there are 2 assinged to each wedding.<br>

She is a pro herself but looking to move away from the photography part and focus more on the business part. So she asked me how much I charged hourly. For my own business (which includes photo books as part of the hourly rate) I charge around $350- so I told her $200/hour. She was almost outraged at the amount of money I was asking for, claiming thats the most anyone has quoted her so far. I've never been a second shooter but I figured for my experience $200 an hour was about right.<br>

Anyway she continued to tell me that she has lots of people interested in this opportunity to join her group and that she starts people off between $500-$800 to be a second shooter. She even implied "more qualified people" were being considered, or something along those lines. She called me last night to ask me to do a wedding this Saturday and she would offer me $500. The hours are 12-9. To get $500 for 9 hours of shooting seems so crazy to me and I'm wondering if this is the usual for a second shooter or am I getting ripped off. My gut tells me I'm making as little money as possible for that day. Thoughts?</p>

<p>You'll make less because you didn't do anything outside of shooting. (meet with client, pay for advertising, workflow, etc.) It seems very high to me to 2nd shoot, but if you back down and take that price, you're kinda putting your services on sale, and it doesn't sound like your style.</p>

<p>Hi Elizabeth, I have been a similar situation myself a few times, being approached by a 'middle-man-photographer'. However one thing i asked myself is, 'do i really need the assignments or am i doing fine by myself thank you very much?'<br />Personally, if you are doing ok by yourself, and you've been established for 4 years, then why do you need to be a second shooter. Plus she sounds a bit pushy!</p>

<p>Four years of experience is a secondary consideration. How good you are and how busy you are - thus, the value of shooting on a day you might not have an assignment - might be more important factors.<br>

But, more importantly is what your obligations are for that $500. Are you required to edit anything, or do you turn over a disque with all the images? Does the lead photographer choreograph everything, or do you have to do that? And, of course, who owns the images? You might get a few pictures you'd like to post on your web site: that has a certain value because it might draw clients.<br>

You also have to consider how much the lead photographer is charging and what their profit winds up being. If it's a $2,000 package, which is far less than a $2,000 profit, $500 is pretty good.<br>

If your Saturday is free, your responsibilities on the day of the wedding are minimized, and you don't do any computer editing - and you get to at least share ownership of the images - $500 seems okay to me.<br>

Curt (photocurt.com)<br>

(765) 437-8048</p>

If she has more-qualified people who will work for less, why's she calling you?

<p>Thanks for all the response. Here is some more insight. I'm at the point right now where I'm hoping to be completley full time with my own business in the next few months- but I'm still looking to make money outside of my own business so thats why this was appealing to me. I am busy but happened to have this Saturday open. For $500 I need to take and edit the pictures, most of the direction will be done by the primary shooter and I will be more of her "backup." I'm going to ask her about the rights to the photos- probably something I should have done before I said yes!</p>

<p>Good Question Mike- that's another thing that triggered the ill response I'm having to the whole situation.</p>

<p>I shoot as a 2nd for about 6 other photographers.</p>

<p>The most I've ever been paid was a bit over $300 for an 8 hour day. I won't be buying a condo in the Brahmas anytime soon but there's is nothing like turning over your cards at the end of the day, saying goodbye, and washing your hands clean of the entire affair.</p>

<p>Time-wise and considering the pre/post work, I've actually made less doing some solo weddings I think.</p>

<p>Edit: <em><strong>For $500 I need to take and edit the pictures</strong></em><br>

Sounds strange as I'm assuming you mean only the photos you shot. PP will vary depending on who does it and yours mixed in with the main shooters style will be different.</p>

<p>If I was going to be turning my card over- I really wouldn't have a problem- but the 9 hours I'll be shooting doesn't include the hours I'll spend editing the 1,000+ pictures I'll take that day.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>but I figured for my experience $200 an hour was about right.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Would you pay that much to an experienced plumber or electrician? All that is being offered here is an hourly rate for a competant craftsperson.</p>

<p>Hmm-can't really compare a photographer's work to a plumber's work since they come in, do the job and they are done. The $200/hour would incorporate my time there and the additional hours spent editing the photos. It may be $200/hour that day but if you spread that across the amount of hours spent on that particular wedding it is far more than 9. Also a plumber's work is far more objective than a photographers which is very subjective. <br />That also implies that all photographers- after a certain point, should make the same amount of money. I'm sure in your experience you've seen people you'd pay far more than $200 an hour for their photography work. There might be a cap at which experience tops off their cost but I'd be willing to pay for that versus someone with little to no experience.<br />Another point is I wasn't sure if it was too high or too low but it was close to half of what I usually charge and since I was doing about half the work (no marketing, no interviews, etc.) that seemed right.</p>

<p>in all honesty $500 for second shooting is a good rate, but I am surprised that they expect you to edit them too, if that is the case, I am assuming they like your processing. most important thing, make sure you have a contract between you and them that covers details like you mentioned, use of images, etc.</p>

<p><em>can't really compare a photographer's work to a plumber's work since they come in, do the job and they are done</em><br>

<br />But not really, of course. They also have to do marketing, carry expensive insurance and licensing fees, drive around in expensive vehicles carrying tons of tools and supplies, and somehow cover the time between bookings. They also have to fuss over contracts, and they also have after-the-gig work to do (replacing shop materials, doing and replacing inventory, vehicle and tool maintenance, etc.). People don't think about what they're really paying a plumber to do (be available, with the know-how, equipped for everything, and bonded, and ready to go to work in who-knows-what circumstances) ... just like they don't think about what they're really paying a wedding photographer to do. Which is to say, "just fixing the faucet" is a lot like "just shooting some pictures."</p>

<p>And wouldn't you want that plumber who had the insurance, the right tools etc. versus someone who claimed to be a plumber? Wouldn't you pay them more than someone with less experience?<br>

I think the $500 is ok if I didn't have to edit the photos, thats the thing that doesn't sit right with me.</p>

<p>You might consider separating out the editing as a separate fee. It sounds like she is comparing your $200/hour (which also includes editing at no additional cost) with other photographers who charge less but only shoot (no editing). If you give her the hourly price for shooting and the hourly price for editing, the hourly rate will come down, and will make you a lot more attractive. </p>

<p>That makes sense Barry except she already expects that the $500 DOES include editing :(</p>

<p>Right, so your counter offer can be $500 for the photos, turned over at the end of the day. One reason this makes sense is your job as a 2nd is to provide images of certain key events from a different perspective than the primary and to cover elements the primary can't cover (because he or she is covering a different, probably more important element). So you're done with that service at the end of the day, and what you captured, you captured.</p>

<p>Post processing is an entirely different endeavor. (That's "endeavour" for those of you who need a translation from American.) What expectations are enumerated in the agreement regarding post processing? Is it just culling? Does your primary have some artistic expectations from you? If the primary wants you to refine or re-edit, what are your obligations? If your editing style means your shots differ markedly from the shots of the primary photographer, do they all just get dumped onto a disc, or do you have more work to do?</p>

<p>It seems quite reasonable to balk at the notion of $500 for shooting <em>and </em>editing, unless the editing is strictly and explicitly limited in the (written!) agreement. If it's just culling, fine. If it's applying a few actions to certain types of photos and synch-adjusting contrast and sharpening, maybe that's okay. If it's hours and hours of editing with undefined or open-ended expectations, you've got a recipe for regret.</p>

<p>My simple opinion. $500 for 9 hours is OK if I just shoot with no editing, given I don't have any of my own jobs that day. It is not OK if I have to edit. I'd either offer to do the job for that price, no editing, or quote what the editing would be, on a take it or leave it basis. Or shoot jpegs.</p>

<p>Obviously she wants you, not some other photographer, which is why she asked you after telling you she has access to others that *might* be *better*. So you have that bit of leverage. You just need to decide if you want this job/this kind of arrangement badly enough to negotiate. The latter decision involves how you expect your business/reputation to unfold in the short term.</p>

<p>I'll ask this now, even though it sounds like you've already agreed.</p>

<p>Do you have a contract?<br>

If you don't, you have nothing except your word to bind you to this deal...and it sounds like you aren't happy with it.</p>

<p>If/when you sign the contract, make sure it spells out the following:<br>

~what is expected of you<br>

~what you will be paid for said expectations<br>

~image usage and rights for you and "the company"</p>

<p>If anything in the contract doesn't sit well with you, I'd walk away. It sounds like you're doing fine on your own. What I would warn you about is burning bridges. If you ever expect that this person's company will encroach on your business, it's worthwhile to maintain a good working relationship with them.<br>

RS</p>

<p>You also mentioned turning over "1,000+ pictures" you'll take that day. As a 2nd, you might seriously consider using this as an opportunity to practice getting shots right the first time, and not taking a high number of shots, especially where they depict redundant subject matter. I brought a 2nd to my last wedding, and told him I really didn't expect more than 500 shots (and frankly, because I am editing them, I didn't <em>want </em>more than that). What I really wanted from him was different-angle coverage of key elements and some creative shots of things I can't get to. I don't want hundreds of photos in groups of 20-near-identical shots, especially if I already have a shot or two of the same thing.</p>

<p>For you, especially if you have to cull and edit your own photos, consider limiting yourself to 500 for the day, and see what that does to your mindset. Or 400 if you're feeling crazy! If your shots are good (especially if they're on average better than the primary's), the number won't matter much even if they expected a higher number.</p>

<p>For me, $500 is a <em>lot</em> to 2nd shoot a wedding. I know in my market a <em>primary</em> shooter gets between $400 - $700 with an average of around $500 - $550. And this is for a decent shooter: back up equipment and lenses covering 24-200 @ f/2.8 (on FX) and at least one fast prime. We supply the memory cards. A 2nd shooter gets far less, in the range of $150 - $200. For a 10 hour day that is $15 to $20 an hour. Plus the experience. In terms of editing, I would define what needs done. If you are just checking for exposure and white-balance, I wouldn't imagine that to be a problem (provided you shoot well). Run the images through your program of choice in a couple of hours. If editing is to be something more, well that needs defined. It does bother me a bit that management wants pp done. But then again, perhaps they just want to ensure decent exposure, white-balance and delete the stuff that needs deleted.</p>

<p>Bottom line though, if you don't fell comfortable doing it, don't. </p>

<p>Sorry to keep posting, but man, the hair on the back of my neck is just standing up for some reason, based on the way you've described your negotiations with this individual so far. Take the advice of Richard, Nadine and others, and get all expectations set clearly in writing, including that you are the 2nd shooter, that there will be a primary, and that your role is the traditional role of a 2nd, i.e., to fill gaps and take complimentary shots. </p>

<p>It would not surprise me at all if you returned to this thread the evening after that wedding, and wrote a post telling us how you found yourself in the role of sole photographer when the person who hired you called you at the last minute and said the primary was "sick" and couldn't make it. Or was in a car crash. Or a building collapse, trapped in rubble in the parking garage. Or had to wash her cat. </p>

<p>Well I can tell you all that I've already learned alot just by my own actions in the last 24 hours. #1. Don't commit to something before thinking it thouroughly through. I heard $500 and said yes- before asking some really important questions.<br>

#2. Find out what the money I am getting paid for entails- editing or not, and if I do need to edit, how much and what type of editing<br>

#3. Get this all in writing!!!!<br>

Ian I think taking the day to work on my own stuff and getting it right the first time is a good way to look at it. John for me- my prices are based on my own company so on a usual 9 hour wedding shoot, I'm making anywhere between $2,000 and $3,000 dollars so when you get smacked with $500 for the same number of hours (but possibly a lot less photos- thanks Ian) it was a lot to swallow. She has already changed the situation a bit, at first she said I needed to be at the wedding at 1pm in a town about 20 minutes from here, now I got an email this am saying I need to be in another state (about an hour from here) at 12 noon. I already said I would need coverage for travel, other wise I can just meet them at the church. I very much believe in not burning bridges and don't want to get a bad name for my own company. It's a tough balance between getting what I need and what she is willing to offer.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I'm making anywhere between $2,000 and $3,000 dollars</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>If that is what you are pocketing shooting for 9-hours, I don't see what the issue is, don't do it. There are <em>very </em> few shooters pocketing that kind of money. I think it is very clear that you don't work well with this person, I why give yourself the headache?</p>

<p>You wrote:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>at first she said I needed to be at the wedding at 1pm in a town about 20 minutes from here, now I got an email this am saying I need to be in another state (about an hour from here) at 12 noon.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Bless your heart. The last hair on my neck just sprang up. (<em>ta-wiiiinnnnnnggg!</em>) You may have said you'd do it, but I think it's safe to say you do not yet have a meeting of the minds. I would bluntly put the brakes on and insist on a comprehensive, written agreement before anything else happens.</p>

<p><strong>EDIT:</strong> By "bluntly," I mean say, in writing, something like "To be clear, you do not have a commitment from me for this or any event until we have executed a written agreement, and you should not act in any way in reliance on me until that time."</p>