Am I charging too much?

Hi all. I have been a long time reader/browser, but this is my first post. It is regarding the rate I am charging

for my first photography job.

 

Well, about a month ago, I was approached by the assistant minister at my church. He asked me if I would

photograph a church worship night, so that the church would have some photos to put in brochures, ads, posters

etc. I found out some more information about the night, what types of pictures they wanted, etc, and I agreed to

it. There was no money or hourly rates or anything discussed, I was just told to keep track of my hours, shooting

and editing, and we will square up when the job is finished. I agreed to this, only because I am a member of this

church, trust the man who came to me, and because I simply didn't know of a rate I would charge, because this was

my first job taking photographs for anyone but myself.

 

So, the worship night comes, I take pictures for the full service, about an hour and a half, and get a bout 300

images. The assistant minister then tells me that they are in no rush to get the pictures, and would like for me

to come back for the next couple of weeks, and continue to take photos. He reassured me to still keep track of my

hours, and just to begin editing the photos, and when I turn in the photos, I will get paid. I then continue to

take pictures over the next 2 weeks, and am told that they now are ready for the photos. So I import and edit the

pictures that I have accumulated over the past 3 weeks, which turns out to be almost 800 images. I spend a lot of

time editing, and accumulate 24 hours of editing time. So, it comes time to write up my hours and invoice, and I

come up with 4.5 hours of shooting time, and 24 hours of editing. 28.5 hours total.

 

Now, I try to come up with the amount I should charge. I had been doing some research, and talking to some other

photographers I know, and come to conclude that a professional photographer typically charges between $50-$150 an

hour. (is this correct?) Being as though that I am by no means a "professional" I think that because this is my

first photography job, I should charge considerably less than what a professional would charge. I also realize

that I am wearing out my camera, using my memory cards, my CD's, my time, my software, and my computer. So I take

this into consideration. The amounts that I come up with to charge are $25.00 per session shooting (about $17.00

an hour), and $30.00 per hour editing. My total bill comes up to $795.00 ($75.00 for shooting for 4.5 hours,

$720.00 for editing for 24 hours). Yesterday, I turned it into the assistant minister while he wasn't at this

office, and told him that this invoice was negotiable if he thought there were changes that might need to be made.

 

Later today get a call telling me that we will sit down and discuss this invoice sometime next week, and that he

doesn't need me to take pictures this coming week. Now this has me kind of nervous, thinking that I might have

made a mistake, and charged too much, and that now, he isn't going to want to use me again, because I ask way too

much for the job. But, I also feel like the ball was put in my court from the get go, because there was no

initial cost/rate discussed prior to the job being done.

 

So what I am asking is, did I charge too much? Does this rate look reasonable? What would you charge?

 

 

 

Thank you for reading this. I know it is long, but I am just looking for some help. Hopefully, I will get an

answer that will help me out in this situation. Thanks again.

 

Jake

I know there was another post like this a while ago, and there was a ton of discussion. Since it is YOUR church, I wouldn't charge anything, other than maybe some material cost that was already agreed upon. Your time is tax deductible, but I bet they thought you were going to do it on a volunteer basis, which is usually the case unless you are a business and are actually hired to do work (like photographers that do church directories).

<p>Difficult to tell if you've charged too much without seeing the results.</p>

 

<p>I'd say at face value your figures seem reasonable. They reflect the effort you put in, plus a heavy discount to take

account of your inexperience and limited overheads. So far so good. The only area that might be contentious is the

editing time because it all depends on the value you added. If your pictures are fabulous -- a well edited set of

impressive images -- then your rate will be very good value. But if your pictures are poor, and your editing time was to

correct mistakes, then the church may feel they've incurred a financial penalty as a direct result of errors you made

when shooting.</p>

 

<p>There's also an additional dimension in terms of what the church feels is a reasonable assumption of charitable good

will from you. Which is entirely a matter between you and them. But for future reference, never do any work without

some form of common understanding, preferably in the form of a documented agreement. It will prevent all kinds of

misunderstandings later.</p>

I would charge nothing. For starters it is your first job, maybe you should just do favors to build up your reputation and portfolio, and

secondly, it is your church. I would look at it as a wonderful opportunity to do a nice favor for your church. I personally would have a hard

time accepting money from my church...but that's just me. If they absolutely insist on paying, I would give them an awesome discount

rate....

I don't know your level of experience/expertise with Photoshop - but here's a conundrum: the less experienced you

are - the longer it would take - the more you would have to charge.

 

What work did you carry out in Photoshop? Was there sufficient post processing to warrant an invoice of $720?

Did you evaluate/post process each image individually? If so could the work have been done any quicker using

actions/batch processing, etc?

 

Bottom line - if you want to become a full-time photographer you need to build up a portfolio AND some good will.

Weigh up how much good-will you will get by dropping all charges against an $800 payment!

 

Do it a s a freebie provided you get credit on all the brochures, etc. With a church minister batting for you and

all that coverage, other jobs should come rolling in!

 

Case in point - I've just done some work with a well-known hotel chain for a charity - didn't charge a bean,

wrote it off to marketing. Now when the hotel in question sends out information for wedding receptions,

conferences, etc. they include one of my leaflets!! Plus the marketing manager wants to work on a package deal

(for weddings)!

 

Money can't buy the kind of kudos you will get - bite the bullet and tear up the invoice.

Impossible to respond without seeing the results however if it were me I would have done it as a favor or charged a

small token fee, say perhaps $50/$100.

Jake - forgot to mention - it's your church man! Everyone gets excited when they get a chance at their first "paying" job - don't look at this as a chance to generate some income look at it as a chance to generate some standing with The Big Man Upstairs.

I used to do free computer setup, installs, debugging, etc for our church. There came a time when it simply became too much, because as time went on, a little was added here, another install, then the video tie in...you get the picture. I had to back it down. They offered to pay but I just don't think it's right. In most churches, especially smaller ones, members should do all of these things for free. Heck, when I was a kid, my dad organized and built a new building. No one ever questioned the fact that their Saturdays would be tied up for the foreseeable future (and evenings, holiday weekends, etc.)! Just some food for thought...

I would charge for your time/labor. Just charge for the materials (cd) and once you get the check give it back to them as a donation when they pass around the offerings. Make your labor tax deductible though. Ask for photo credit or a small story about the photography you did for them in return. that will give you so much more goodwill and you will make more money in the first year then if you charged them triple that (birthday parties, portraitts). Its the best way to start a photography business IMO. Got to use all the goodwill and let everything else fall in place.

I meant to say, I wouldn't* charge for time and labor. :)

On a personal level I would suggest that you offer this up and leave it at that. On a professional level I can tell you that 24 hours of editting doesn't add up. For 4 and a half hours of shooting it would be hard to justify more than 4-6 hours of postwork assuming that you're proficient in PS. A pro will always use a contract and discuss these issues upfront so there isn't any room for misunderstandings, assuptions, and hard feelings. By offerring to do this for free it eliminates the need to discount what you believe you're worth.

I only started my photography business this year, so take what you want from this.

 

I made the decision to have a go at starting a business and then spoke to work mates, friends and family to see who would like some work done (family shoots, kids etc.).

 

I then did my first 10 or so jobs for no charge. It was great experience for me, the "clients" didn't have too high expectations, which allowed me to impress them with the results.

 

I then decided to start charging a small fee ($100) for any future sessions. I've since built up valuable experience and haven't had a weekend without at least one job since January. I gradually build up my prices as my experience and quality improves.

 

I've now done dozens of family shoots, a few weddings (5 more booked over the next 6 months) and am getting work taking pictures for web sites through a web site design company.

 

I haven't advertised yet. It's all word of mouth and all thanks to the "freebies" at the beginning. I've now paid for all of my equipment (I am happy to have done this in my first 8 months). My costs are still low, but that's the way they will stay, at least until I've got 12 months under my belt and have started to put together a portfolio I'm happy with. Then I may look at doing a web site.

 

I guess my point is, don't look to profit early on. And certainly don't charge for all your editing time. I know I'd be out of business already if I'd tried to do that. I was very slow at the start. I'm still a bit slow, so I charge for the time it'll take me when I'm better at it! It's not the clients fault I'm slow.

 

Good luck.

Thanks for all of your replies.

 

I know that the editing seems like a lot. But I began editing the images in Lightroom, which I am pretty familiar with, but still have things to learn. Then, about 2 weeks in, I acquired Photoshop CS3, in which I edited all remaining photos, and re-edited all previous photos. And because I had just acquired Photoshop, I wasn't a pro at using it yet, and still am not. So that's where all of the editing time comes in.

 

However, I did speak to the assistant minister, and he said that my price is fine, and he sees the value that he is getting, and how much more it could be. He has no problem with the price, but what he said, is that if this is going to be the rate, then they just won't have me take pictures every single week. Which is understandable, because he said that he has plenty of photos to work with for a long time, and he wasn't going to have me come back every week before he saw the invoice, so he says.

 

So, now I can do what a number of you said, and just bite the bullet, and do it all for free. This way, I will still get shooting opportunities for sure. Or, I can go ahead and get paid, and hope I still get opportunities later on. I just don't know what to do now, because he says that I will still have opportunities in the near future, but how do I know that for sure? Yet, if I do tear up the invoice, I would be much more reassured to have opportunities later on.

 

I guess I did just hop on the chance of making some income on my first job, and didn't really think about getting my foot in the door, and making the church appreciate me that much more. Had I thought about this before billing with the invoice, I think I would have done it at a much cheaper rate, if at all. Thanks for you guys input. I really appreciate it.

GIve him the invoice and write DONATION across the top, PAID IN FULL. I always invoice when I give anything as a contribution, so people know the value of what they are getting, and so I can write off the deduction if its possible. J

There is a man at a church who is a professional woodworker. He built beautiful handcrafted cabinets for his church which

were obviously worth a lot of money.

 

He asked the church to pay for the materials only.

I shoot concerts and dance recitals and other events at my church all the time, and rarely do I charge them. Usually I just have the sessions done as tax write-offs, which gives me time to experiment and hone my craft, as well as exposure among the members who see me doing it and then see my work afterwards.

 

That said, if the agreement was to pay you, then the agreement was to pay you. Worse case scenario, you sit down with them and discuss the time it took and come to a mutually acceptable agreement on the payment.

I really like Jeffrey's suggestion. Also, if you did this as a freebie or donation, the church could recommend you to people

for weddings or other events if they liked your work. And that would get you future business that you could start charging

for. :)

If they're willing to pay you, how about you offer to reinvest the money into the church at your discretion? Like improve a youth center, buy a flatscreen to display the words to hymns, whatever. Word will get around the church that the visible improvement made was on your behalf... and you can take it from there. Only do this if you genuinely want to help out your church.

Check with your tax preparer, but I'm pretty sure donations of labor and time are not tax deductible..

I don't think it is fair to charge for extra editing time because you were using a program that you were learning. The church shouldn't have to pay for you to educate yourself in CS3.

 

If you are getting experience then it is probably fair to discount your price a bit too. Afterall you are getting some benefit too.

Jake wrote - "I did speak to the assistant minister, and he said that my price is fine, and he sees the value that he is getting, and how much more it could be. He has no problem with the price, but what he said, is that if this is going to be the rate, then they just won't have me take pictures every single week."

 

I'm one of the leaders in my church and I read the following between the lines - "we didn't expect to pay this much but it's our fault for not talking money up front. We'll be gracious and pay it and write it off, but we're not going to get caught again!"

 

I think you've some bridges that need rebuilding and I'd go with the advice above and pay the money back as a donation. By all means emphasis that you've done it this way so that it goes through the churches books in order to properly reflect incomings and outgoings.

 

Just my opinion.

I think you should build a good relationship with your church. making the invoice as a donation like Jeffrey said is a good idea. Most couple who will use the church for their wedding will talk to the minister, ask him to recommend you.

 

That is your door of opportunity. Everyweek you are showing up to take picture, will make all the people in the church think that you are a 'pro-photographer', its a slow brain storming. Hand out your cards, make some print which is a good one and give it to the person attending, business will come.

 

Word of mouth is the best and cheapest wedding/event photographer way of marketing

 

Marketing cost money, shooting for the church for free maybe your way to gain more business. Thats how I am looking at it.

I don't go to church so I don't have that problem, but the hours of editing seem excessive, normally one to one is all it takes, maybe two to one, one hour shooting two hours editing,

I would say for 4.5 hours of shooting, and being an inexperienced photographer/retoucher, your bill is a bit

high-it works out to almost $200 an hour for shooting. To put it in perspective, my charge for the work you did

would have been about $450, with post-production, and I have 3 years professional experience. If you were

proficient in photoshop, then your retouching hourly charge would be fine, and it would have only taken about 6

hours work, tops.<br><br>

Since it is a church, and not just any church, but the church you go to, I would second the opinion that you

should make it a donation. The goodwill and word of mouth advertising you'll get will far outweigh the $800

you're writing off.

To play devil's advocate, the question isn't if you are charging to much the question is: can this client afford a

professional photographer. If you talk to a personnel manager and ask them what it costs to pay and provide reasonable

benefits to an employee you will find that $150 to $200 per hour is on the low end. This is the true cost you need to

keep in mind. Getting rich is a perfectly legitimate goal for you BTW. Also bear in mind that we need to budget for

down time because your availability is also something that factors into the cost of doing business. I don't begrudge

bargain shoppers their prerogative, but you will find that there are clients who simply cannot afford to keep you in

business. If you have to lower your price to keep a client, you will eventually find your self working all the time and

getting poorer in the process. BTW you can't write off a service. You should check that with your accountant. I have

always got my best referrals from my best paying clients. It kind of makes sense because they demonstrated with their

pocket books that they value my work.