Advice on a 6x9 folder please.

OK good people of PN, I have a decision that I know you can help me

with. I am looking to purchase a 6x9 folder for landscape

photography and would like to know of any recommendations. I have

been looking at the Moskva 5 but I'm not sold on it yet. Also, let's

keep around $100 or less. I have a low budget.

The Agfa Record III is supposed to be a nice one. The lens is supposed to be really good.

I really enjoyed a Kodak Monitor Special which I sold recently. It had the anastigmat special 101mm lens and gave really sharp and contrasty images. They are very cheap, but the down side is that they use 620 film which means re rolling 120.

This came up in a roundabout way, but one of the sharpest lens on a 6x9 folder (and almost any camera) that I've encountered has been the ancient uncoated f/4.5 10.5cm Tessar, especially in the f/8-f/16 range.

 

My particular camera, which I've written about in the past, is a zone focus camera. In some ways, it's much easier to use than the Super Ikonta, which has separate finders for focusing and composing.

 

The Novar also seems to be an admirable performer.

 

The key is to find an Ikonta 6x9 that isn't a piece of junk or hasn't been damaged -- usually by dropping the camera.

Mike,

Zone focusing wouldn't bother me. I would be shooting almost exclusively at the smallest aperature so a rangefinder is not a must. Also, I have no interest in color landscapes so the uncoated lens sounds like a good deal.

 

Can anyone post a few example shots from their 6x9 so I can take a look?

Jay,

 

a Super Ikonta 6x9 with a Tessar lens is out of range for your budget, around $250 and more if you find one. The same quality is the Zeiss Ercona II, which is the post war Ikonta version from the same factory with the same Tessar lens, in fact the same tooling all around exept the view finder. You can find it on the bay for $50 more or less. Great folder, stunning pictures.

<b>Links to two examples that have a lot of annotations:</b><br>

 

<a href=http://pages.prodigy.net/mm-elek/Ikonta120.htm target=_new>Example 1</a><br>

 

<a href=http://pages.prodigy.net/mm-elek/cameras/jinshanling800.jpg target=_new>Example 2</a><p>

 

<b>Straight tourist shots:</b><br>

<a href=http://pages.prodigy.net/mm-elek/cameras/near-kabuki.jpg target=_new>Near the Kabuki theater in Ginza district, Tokyo</a> (TMax 100-processed by lab)<br>

<a href=http://pages.prodigy.net/mm-elek/cameras/ginza800.jpg target=_new>Ginza district, Tokyo</a> (same as above)<p>

 

The first is rather pedestrian and not that good. However, it's good for showing that the lens is fine for street photography. This would have been much better with a faster film and using a hyperfocal setting on the lens, which I'd need to calculate beforehand because the camera doesn't have a depth of field scale.<P>

 

The second shot was much tougher, because you can see it's more or less into the morning sun. You can see the reflections of sunlight off the glass on the sidewalk in the foreground. A traditional print would be easier to handle because of the wide range of tones. The uncoated lens has handled this scene a bit better than expected.<P>

 

The one very nice thing about this Tessar is that it's well corrected for linear distortion. There is very little perceptible barrel or pincushion distortion, which really makes it a nice lens for architectural shots.<P>

 

This lens has amazing resolving power and can render detail from very far distances.

By the way, this camera cost me $50 about three years ago. But like I said, the key is to get one that isn't damaged and one that has an unmarred lens.

What about the Zeiss Maximar with the 135 Tessar?

 

Any experience with that?

Mike, you are right, especially the pre war cameras are quite dodgy if they were not handeled carefully by its owners or stored for half a century at a barns loft. If a collector sells one which had a good CLA you can be sure to get a good one. But there are not manny any more, and prices are on the up. Just look at the prices of the Bessa II with the Heliar, I just don't get it!

Here's one from my No. 2 Folding Autographic Brownie with the Rapid Rectilinear lens. Uses 120 film, real leather bellows, very reliable. I think you can probably get one for $15 or so. I've also been pleased with the Anastigmat Special on my Kodak Vigilant, though I haven't had a chance to do much with it yet; think I paid $12.50 for it.<br><br><center><img src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/2603049-lg.jpg"><br><br><i>New England School House</i></center>

Hi, Jay Well, if it's intended for landscape stuff, then a rangefinder is an unnecessary feature so forget about the Moskva 5, Record 111 and Super Ikonta. There's not all that much difference in the design of most non-CRF 6 X 9 folders, so I'd just look for one with a 4-element Tessar or Tessar-cloned lens, preferably post-war and coated. The AGFA Solinar is nice and so is the Ross Xpres seen on British Ensign Selfix 820s. With AGFAs especially, the bellows need close examination for pinholes. The Selfix 820 is very solidly made but the Epsilon shutter often requires a service. With an upper limit of $100, you can afford to be choosey and only buy something that's seen little or no use - even Super Ikontas start to develop a sloppy lens/shutter over time, once the folding struts begin to wear. PN

The Maximar with the 13.5cm lens is a 9x12 camera. The one with the 10.5cm is 6x9. Both are plate cameras, which means that you'll either need sheet film (9x12 is easily available, 6x9 a bit less so). Or you can use a roll-film adapter, which is the better method.

 

The plate cameras take much more time per photo and are best used on a tripod. Most have wire frame finders or small waist-level viewfinders that are too tiny too be of much use.

 

There are some good Kodak folders out there -- some use 620 film, so you'll need to respool.

Um, not to point out the overlooked obvious thing -- don't look now, there's an elephant in the room -- but 2x3 press cameras, of which the various 2x3 Graphics are good examples, come close to meeting your budget and have much more potential than the fixed lens folders people have suggested so far. And yes, they fold. Depending on the roll holder used, they shoot nominal 6x6, 6x7, and 6x9.

 

I have two 2x3 Graphics, a Century and a Pacemaker Speed. Between 'em I use lenses out and about with focal lengths ranging from 38 mm to 305 mm. Out-and-about includes landscape photography. I shoot them close-up too with highly specialized macro lenses and with good grades of garden variety enlarging lenses. The Speed cost me $75, a roll holder for it cost $25. The Century cost, after I sold the so-so normal lens that was on it, cost $80. Inflation, alas.

 

Good luck, let the confusion roll,

 

Dan

Yes, a nice option. Probably not what Jay had in mind, though certainly worthy of consideration. I've always wanted to try one of these. Guess it will have to wait until 2005.

Jay,

 

You could also consider an earler Moskva (1 2 or 3) equipped with sharper Industar 23 lenses. They don't have 6x6 mask and the first model lacks the rangefinder, but it shouldn't be critical given your requirements.

I hadn't thought about a press camera. I like the idea of interchangeable lens. They are not very compact, but that was never a requirement for me. I would definitely need the roll film back. I don't have any interest in sheet film. I just took a look on the bay for 2x3's and the prices are very high. Time of the year perhaps? I'll keep my eye out for a reasonable find. Yep, I think a roll-back 2x3 sound just right. I also may pick up a cheap folder to play with. After all, who can buy just one camera? Aren't we the true fanatics!!!!

 

Thanks to all for your sound advice and photo sample.

Look for an older Bessa with Skopar lens. The one just before the Bessa 1 and Color-Skopar. Good performance and the price should be reasonable.

Even though I don't own one, I'll vote for a post war Ikonta with coated Opton or Zeiss Tessar. If you must stay within budget then a f/3.5 Novar will do. In my opinion, the Ikontas I have seen have the best bellows in the business. If you can, find a 6x9 that has been recently CLA'd. If not, then get ready for some surprises. Also, the less complicated, the better in this class.

 

I have three of 6x9 folders, an Agfa Record III, a Billy Record II and a Voigtlander Bessa I, with a Color Skopar and the 4x6 mask.

 

The Agfas that still have their original bellows will need them replaced. The Record III is nice camera, but will be over budget even before a CLA and $75, plus mailing costs for a new set of bellows.

 

Within your budget, the 6x9 that I use the most is the Billy Record II fitted with a later f/4.5 Apotar and Prontor SV shutter from a Record II. It's the most compact my three 6x9 cameras and has the best viewfinder. It fits in the front pocket of a pair of Dockers, if need be. Also, I get better contrast with the triplet than I do with the Solinar on my Record III. The 6x9 format makes up for any difference in sharpness at the edges. FYI, the Billy Record II also needed its bellows replaced, but I cheaped out and made do with set carefully removed from a Franka Rolfix.

 

Unless you spring for a Bessa I with a f/4.5 Vaskar, it is another camera which will be over $100, but well worth the extra bucks. For starters, the build quality on the Bessa makes the Agfas seem tinny. The f/3.5 Color Skopar on mine offers nice constrast and very sharp resolution when the image is enlarged. - I don't know, if this is a downside, but the Bessa I a bulkier and heavier camera than my Agfas. - It's endearing quality and the reason I've kept it, is it does double duty as a 6x9 or 4x6 - provided that you have the difficult to source metal mask. 4x6 with a 105mm lens has a similar look to 35mm film shot with a 70mm lens. For the wearer of eye glasses, the puny viewfinder gets even smaller when shooting 4x6, but there is a parallax setting for both 6x9 and 4x6. You may want to remove your glasses when composing.

 

With regards to accessory range finders, which you can always get later, I use a Watameter range finder with the Bessa, as it doesn't block the winder as much the official Voigtlander accessory range finder. The accessory shoe on the Bessa is closer to the film winder than it is on most 6x9 cameras. I also have a Voigtlander range finder. It works exquisitely well with the Billy Record II even though I bought to use with the Bessa.

 

There is one other 6x9 worth of mention, but again exceeds your budget. If I didn't already own the Bessa I, I'd be looking for an East German Ercona II. The f/3.5 Zeiss Jena Tessar is very highly regarded. A Moskva may do if it has low mileage, but most I've seen look well travelled and their build quality isn't up to German standards.

I have a Moskva 5 that takes VERY sharp pics. The problem I had was getting the thing to work at all. I ended up buying two and using the parts of one to fix the other. Had to also seal a couple of light leaks on the back. Now all is working and the pictures are tack sharp. Buying these is rather a crap shoot, but it's quite easy to swap parts between a couple of them to make a good one, and they are cheap these days.

 

Dave

I have been refurbishing Zeiss cameras for the last couple of years and have found that with a good lens cleaning and lens refocusing most of them are capable of very good photographs. The quality is more consistent with the Tessar but the Novar are very good if used right. A Zeiss 6x9 Tessar will run a little more than $100 but a Novar might be in that range. Along with good techniques 1) Open camera slowly ?snapping it open will cause a vacuum that will pull the film into the bellows. 2) Stop the lens down f/11 or greater for best results. 3) Watch for flare shoot with the sun to your back. Along with all the other things you know. Check out my web site with pics from my Zeiss's

http://davidrichert.com/pictures_taken_with.htm

Jay,

<P>

The Moskva is quite capable, just make sure you buy one from a reputable dealer.

<P>

I also have a Franka Rollfix II, which is much better than I expected, has shutter speed to 1/500s, and is quite nice to use (and came with a 6x6 mask). No RF, but an accessory RF fits in its accessory holder, and it takes easy to get 40.5mm screw in filters which is beneficial for landscapes.

<P>

You can see some shots from the Franka and Moskva <A HREF="http://pch.fotopic.net/c150836.html"><B>here</B></A><P>

 

Paul

I'll second Andrew that the Ikontas have great bellows. The ordinary (not Super) Ikonta C is a class camera, and well in your budget.

 

The Kodak Monitor and Vigilant Six-20 with Anastigmat Special lens are optically comprable to a Zeiss Tessar. But the odds of finding one that doesn't need a bellows replacement and/or shutter cleaning are low. (Kodak used crap synthetic bellows on these cameras.) The bellows are available (new old stock), and the shutter isn't hard to clean, but you have to have the interest, mechanical aptitude, and some tools to do the work.

 

If you want the least hassle after buying the camera, start with a Ikonta C. But then you will be hooked...

So many to choose from!!!!! Must excersize control!!! So....hard...to stop....thinking about...cameras. Must have all of them!!!

OK..I'm currently leaning toward a Graflex Pacemaker. I really like what I've found out about that camera. However, I think I'll also keep looking for a 6x9 folder to throw in my jacket pocket for those last minute drives.

 

Thanks everyone.

Look at a 6x9 Technical Horseman 980, 985 series. A rangefinder press camera.