Tony Rowlett Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 PLEASE HELP THIS FORUM by keeping more to its topic. <p> There have been a lot of off-topic posts over a long period of time, and there have been times when there were more off-topic or stupid posts than on-topic, interesting posts. <p> In order to reduce the amount of archived off-topic content, we are going to start making more frequent use of the "Delete" and "Expire" functions of this forum. Posts that are deemed too far off-topic will be deleted as soon as we find them, and no notice, explanation, or apology will be given. Posts that are off-topic but sufficiently interesting to a majority of our forum participants will be expired a certain number of days after posting, based on the amount of time the thread remains relevant and interesting. <p> This will better serve photo.net by making it more suitable for people searching for photography-related advice <p> Sometimes, threads that start out perfectly on-topic wander somewhat into different subject areas. While it would be ideal to always remain perfectly on topic, we are all human and there is a natural tendency to touch upon subjects that are technically different than Leica Photography and therefore off-topic. This does not mark the end of the world, and I will continue to deliberatly allow certain threads like this to stay as long as a few common-sense (and sometimes obvious) conditions are met. <p> I have always been very lax when it comes to moderation of this forum. Mostly it is because I am just a laid-back kind of person, but recently, over the last few years that is, even a much more active - rambunctious? - moderator would have a difficult time going through each thread in search of topic-worthness. Our forum has grown in number of participants and activity to a breathtaking level, but it's not all worthy of being archived as "photographic" information. <p> I have been accused over the years for being ambiguous. For that reason, I will now try to "spell out" a few things that could mean the survival or the death of a thread. <p> <ul> <li>All threads must be mostly about Leica Photography or they will be expired or deleted. <li>All threads, in their entirety, must remain polite, tactful, and supporting of one another. <li>No part of a saved thread will have fallen into a dark area like politics, vulgarities, religion, racism, moderation policy, etc. (That list is not all-inclusive; there are many "dark" topics, unrelated to Leica Photography, which will doom a thread.) <li>Saved threads will have been initiated with a good, valid, on- topic and interesting question made in good faith and with a reasonable expectation of interesting reponses that remain in the vein of Leica Photography. <li>Threads that are mostly off-topic in their content, even when when initially made on-topic, should be deleted or expired, based on the severity of the threads off-topicness and/or the interest level of the thread content. <li>Threads that are silly or just plain stupid will be deleted. <li>From time to time, humorous posts will be allowed to stay so long as they follow other rules above (they're not vulgar, political, etc.) <li>"Words/No Words" threads are of course welcome. <li>"YOUR photo of the week" threads are of course welcome. <li>"FS/WTB" threads are of course welcome. <li>"Mad projects" are great. <li>"What is Leica Photography" is also great, but it shouldn't deteriorate into a "Leica v. Digital" thing, either. </ul> I am not trying to be heavy-handed. I am trying to get a better handle on a forum that some view has gotten so far out of control that it will eventually not be taken seriously at all, and that is a very bad thing for photo.net AND our forum. I have always felt that if I moderate with a light touch, the forum will chug along and everything will be just fine, but as you know, this is no longer the case. Can you please help me out? There is no way that I can tell you everything that is allowed and everything that isn't. I need your cooperation so we can keep this forum an asset to photo.net. <p> Please post your ideas and suggestions here. You are also welcome to email me if you feel comfortable with that. <p> Thanks for reading. Sorry for the book. Backups? We don’t need no stinking ba #.’ _ , J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter_evans4 Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 <p><em>All threads must be mostly about Leica Photography or they will be expired or deleted.</em></p><p>I wonder if I'm alone in being uninterested in the Leica brand but interested in use of or results from cameras inspired by (or ripped off from) Leitz/Leica or indeed made by Leitz/Leica. I've always wondered why this forum combines Leica RF (more or less) and Leica R; they seem to me to have few points in common. "Rangefinder forum" seems a more sensible name to me; still, I don't care what the name is, but hope that talk of the use of (say) the Canon P or Canonet is still welcome. (If it isn't, where should it go?)</p><p>Oh, and while I happen to loathe using the few digital cameras I've tried, I enjoy a lot of the Leica-utterly-unrelated digital photos that have been posted in this forum.</p><p>It seems to me that the problem here isn't one of subject-matter; it's instead one of a handful of small-minded people with bizarre grudges against others, or desires to score points off them. I shan't name them, but at least one familiar quasi-name was active here as recently as yesterday (perhaps today too, but I haven't yet read much from today).</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pensacolaphoto Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 I find many individuals in the Leica Forum having extensive knowledge about "photography". This does not necessary limit their knowledge to Leica cameras or Leitz optics. Would a posting be deleted unless it includes a question or comment about Leitz or Leica? I hope not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charles_mason Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 Tony, "What is Leica Photography" is also great, but it shouldn't deteriorate into a "Leica v. Digital" thing, either." Why is that topic or discussion not relevent in the Leica Forum? Seems extremely revelent to me, since that is the world most photographers are living in today, and since Leica's slowness in coming around with digital products that will take the place of their diminishing M sales (i.e., the digital M body so many of us want), is one reason for their current economic situation. I think you should reconsider this "ban." Thanks, Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max_fun Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 I just hope that the measures will not stop people from coming here and making it a fun learning experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
summitar Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 Tony, I think that you are a genial person and perform a valuable and not sufficiently thanked service as moderator. However, on reading your guidelines, it appears like a handbook for being a Stepford Wife. I think an interesting forum must have a modicum of spice, dissent, and some range in order to remain interesting. That is not to say I approve of mean spirited attacks one's character, but I must remind the forum that some of the most proficient Leica users were buddies of der feuhrer. I do agree that "will Leica survive?", and "film vs. digital" are getting old. I think the topic list can include Leica originals, of course, but also Leica lookalikes, Leica rivals, like Zeiss, and emulation of the "Leica spirit" what ever that is. Mention of "bokeh", of course, should result in instant and permanent banishment. BTW, I own three Leica screwmounts, and would use them, If I could load the film into them. Regardless, they are unsurpassed as neck jewelry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back_alley_. Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 maybe it's finally time for that canon p forum!!? heck, maybe all the rf canons could be included. joe;)<div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_kaplan1 Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 Wow, Tony you've put a lot of thought and effort into that. Thanks. I think we'll have a much better meeting place with the new rules. I suspect it'll be a few months before the kinks are worked out, but essentially you're saying that a lot of borderline things will be allowed to stay for a short while, and there'll be no tollerance for wise guys trying to start a flame war by putting people down. What I've notice about those people is the never seem to offer any useful information anyway, so they won't be missed in the least. The last couple days here have been so much more pleasant. We have a lot of people who read this forum and have been afraid to post anything because of fear of being criticized and "screamed at". You'd be amazed at how much Leica Forum stuff never makes it to photo.net at all. I often answer people by email because my answer might wander off topic, or fear of being flamed, and I suspect others do it also. I know that I often get questions emailed to me rather than being posted. Having it all posted would be so much nicer. More people could learn from the discussions. Thanks, Tony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tekkie Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 Agrees with Tony Rowlett. No harm in keeping things focused and it does get a bit off track sometimes. I also agree with some earlier comments on quality of pics that are posted . New here so hoping I don't get lynched by siding with the purist element. To me, Leica rangefinder is a different kind of photographic experience and you either like it or don't. I happen to love the excellent images I can get wide open and hate it when I look at the quality of my so called pro level SLR. Just my opinion. I'm not quite ready to excahnge my camera as often as my operating system and I think this room should be for the sick people that prefer the fine art of gelatine and polyester. Cheers Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awahlster Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 Back alley can my Canon model III and L-1 come play at your P forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leslie_cheung Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 Perhaps the street/doc forum will get more traffic now. Never knew why such great gear independent forum get so few users. As much as I like this leica forum and my Ms, it's getting more restricted and boring every week imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back_alley_. Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 mark, the more the merrier! joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_kaplan1 Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 I think that we should continue to allow "Leica clones", whether they be Niccas or Canons from the old days or today's line-up of new Bessa bodies and glass. Thirty years ago you could pick up older model Leicas quite cheaply. That's no longer true, and the price of new ones is way beyond the reach of most younger photographers. We need a way to allow these people to join us that fits their budget! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_noble1 Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 <i>All threads must be mostly about Leica Photography or they will be expired or deleted.</i><br><br> Expiring threads is cool -- very little of what anyone says is worth anything to posterity.<br><br> OTOH, just what exactly is "Leica Photography"? Is that like "Rangefinder Style Photography" AKA surreptitious b/w butt shots? Can I talk about my CM since it's not a "real" Leica, or do I have to post test results showing that a CM's glacial focus speed isn't so bad that one will miss the decisive butt shot (on Tri-X, of course)?<br><br> Seriously, can anyone explain "Leica Photography"? I'd settle for an explanation of why it's capitalized. Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack_lo_..._t_o Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 It's worse than that Leslie, I'm afraid. It's just not as good feeling to open up or to enter into a thread where you never know if you or another participant has crossed some line that may or may not be clear to the participant. You are walking between two narrow lines whose distance is determined by someone else and you don't know when you might step across them and your entire conversation will be invisibly deleted with no explanation. That's not a good feeling to enter a discussion with, Tony. It has a "Soviet" air about it. I have always sympathised with your plight, Tony, in the face of the melees and the donnybrooks that have occasionally surfaced here, but I think now that last week's obscenity-fest has pushed you off the deep end. Tony I think all of your goals could be achieved and the creative, exciting nature of this forum maintained with only one rule: Show Respect to Others, or your post/thread will be deleted. If you mercilessly followed that one rule no one could honestly complain. The other stuff is just too restrictive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_noble1 Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 <i>If you accept Canons and Nikons, what's next, digital?</i><br><br> Hate to break it to you, Dave, but Leica <strike>makes</strike> puts their name on several several digital cameras and folks seem to be foaming at the mouth for a digital M. No one knows how the foreground bokeg will turn out, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blakley Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 <i> I'm still amazed at how many digital photos they let get posted. </i><p> Ummm, Dave, ... they're <i>all</i> digital by the time they get here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abufletcher Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 If this became a "Leica-only" forum I would definitely be looking around for some other place on the net. While I have (and use) a Leica M6 (but no Leica lenses) I'm not really interested in Leica itself. And I definitely wouldn't be interesting is a forum where only Leica-made photos were welcome. I do have some general interest in a "rangefinder style" forum, despite the ridiculousness of trying to define what that means. Personally, I'd rather ban dull photos of flowers and statues -- even if made with a Leica than interesting photos made with a digital camera (cheapo or otherwise). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abufletcher Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 Dave, that seems to be a very narrow perspective -- one not uncommon to new Leica owners. I mean you shelled out a lot of cash for your Leica gear and you'd like some assurance that you were "right" to buy a Leica. The sad fact though is that such proof just doesn't exist. An "all-Leica" Leica Forum would quickly degrade into a self-congratulatory "rich guy" club. It's the other photos that keep us honest. If you yourself find your made-with-a-Leica photos wanting in the face of photos made with a 2MP digicam, well you've learned something really important there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry_kincaid1 Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 It seems to me that the rules you posted are generally followed. Threads occassionally bog down into mud fights once in a while that have little to do with photography, let alone Leica photography. You will have trouble making the Digital versus Leica ban stick for too long, because Leica itself is becoming digital. RE: "David Allan Harvey's review of Epson RD1" thread posted recently. I could go for a definition that includes any lenses that fit a Leica camera and any camera that my Leica lenses will fit. The former includes all the clones and the latter includes the new RD1 which will take the lenses, plus the 2006 Leica digital camera if it ever appears. Discussions about whether Nikon/Cannon digital cameras are better or worse than Leica film cameras are a useless waste of time and space, and should be discouraged. Most of us also have SLR cameras and some now have digital SLR cameras as well. There are other forums to explore issues related to those cameras. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abufletcher Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 This photo was made with a Leica. Or was it?<div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maria_s. Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 To Dave Mirra: a few days ago you left a compliment on one of my photographs on W/NW forum saying it must have been taken with a Leica. I don't have a Leica, David. I have a nuked Nikon F3. But ... when I recall the amount of fondling my F3 had received, the words of support and love I whispered into its shutter release, the kilometers of TriX are loaded into its silken belly -- well, Dave, the resemblance to Leica becomes irresistible. You still say no? Oh please, oh please, don't shatter my dreams. Wait a second, I know what I'll do -- I will scratch off the Nikon logo and put the Leica label instaead --- now which model should I pick? Will yo email me with an advice, please? Sincerely, Maria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abufletcher Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 This photo was NOT made with a Leica.<div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maria_s. Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 See David, let's be clear: Tony does not say anything like that. So, I still need your advice re the logo on my Nikon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abufletcher Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 Sorry, Dave. Leica M6TTL. And you may be right. It might not be a very good photo -- like a great many of the Leica-made photos posted here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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