Adam Smith was wrong ...

The real price of everything, what everything really costs to the man who wants

to acquire it, is the toil and trouble of acquiring it. (Adam Smith, 1723-1790

Scottish philosopher and economist)

 

 

Auction Insights

http://auctioninsights.auctionstealer.com

 

Auction Magic

http://www.pctechzone.com/auctionmagic/index.htm

 

Auction Navigator

http://www.auctionnavigator.com

 

Auction Raptor

https://www.auctionraptor.com

 

Auction Sentry

http://www.auction-sentry.com

 

Auction Sniper

http://www.auctionsniper.com

 

Auction Stealer

http://www.auctionstealer.com

 

AuctionTamer

http://www.auctiontamer.com

 

BidNapper

http://www.bidnapper.com

 

BidNip

http://www.bidnip.com

 

Bid Robot

http://www.bidrobot.com

 

BidSlammer

http://www.bidslammer.com

 

BidSlayer

http://www.bidslayer.com

 

BidSpyder

http://www.bidspyder.com

 

Cricketsniper

http://www.cricketsniper.com

 

eSnipe

http://www.esnipe.com

 

esteal

http://www.esteal.net

 

EZsniper

http://www.ezsniper.com

 

HammerSnipe

http://hammertap.auctionstealer.com/home.cfm

 

HarvEX /Turbo-Sniper

http://www.xellsoft.com/HarvEX.html

 

iSnipeIt

http://www.isnipeit.com

 

JustSnipe

http://www.justsnipe.com

 

LastBid

http://newbidtech.com

 

Paragon Last Minute Bidder

http://www.lastminutegebot.de/lmb_impr.htm

 

PowerSnipe

http://www.powersnipe.com

 

PowerTool

http://www.hammertap.com/powertool

 

SearchDigger

http://searchdigger.shrubsoft.com

 

Snipe

http://www.telience.com/software/ebaysnipe.html

 

SnipeMonkey

http://www.snipemonkey.com

 

SnipeRight

http://www.sniperight.com

 

StealthBid

http://www.stealthbid.com

 

TurboBid

http://www.etusa.com/auction/turbobid.htm

 

WinSnipe

http://www.spoofproof.com/secure/winsnipe_selection.php

 

 

(This list is for all of you who, like me, have been curious about who exactly

we've been bidding against on eBay. Craig)

not exactly sure what you are trying to say here...? That you haven't won every auction you bid on or something?

Hmmm, not sure what the point is either.

 

If you've bid the maximum you're willing to pay and someone else is willing to pay more, you wouldn't have won anyways whether they put their bid in days before or seconds before the end of the auction. Unless, of course, you get caught up in a feeding frenzy and bid more than what you had considered to be your maximum.

What does this have to do with photography? Sniping isn't anything new, and it's useful to eliminate dick-measuring contests with eBay newbies. I do it all the time.

My comments were directed to my sense of the alienation of people from people in our online transactions, and about what I see as the real price of using software to bid for us instead of personally toiling to acquire that which we most desire, as suggested by Adam Smith.

 

To be more specific in response to your questions, no I've not won every auction I've entered, and yes, people (or software) willing to spend more money for a specific item being auctioned have outbid me.

 

But, I have won my share.

Reminds me of that old song refrain "too much time on my hands."

Craig,

 

As I replied to your posting on the LF forum:

 

=======================================================

 

Hi Craig,

 

I'd argue that Adam Smith isn't wrong since any of these "sniping mechanisms" still require

the buyer to input a "top-end" price that they're willing to pay for an item.

 

The mechanism is simply the tool used to implement the "buy" function for the purchaser

and the "toil and trouble of acquiring it" is thus simplified. [in this light, though... you

could make a valid argument because it isn't entirely reflective of the toil and trouble of

acquiring it. :>)]

 

At the end of the day... it's still a function of supply and demand.

 

Phantom bidders and technology!

 

Cheers

 

=======================================================

 

And, for some reason :)... I don't believe Adam Smith anticipated or reflected on the advent

of "sniping (and sniping software)" and how it may contribute to the "alienation of people

from people in our online transactions."

 

 

"Reminds me of that old song refrain "too much time on my hands."

 

Brian... too funny! :)

 

Cheers

Do I see an invisible hand at work here?

 

Cheers,

 

Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com)

I think that you will find that Adam Smith was not talking about proxy bidding in online auctions. What he means by toil and trouble is the work that must be done; i.e. the time required to earn the money to purchase the item or the time required to manufacture the item for oneself.

Too much time on my hands? Me? This comment from people who've posted in this forum hundreds and hundreds of times over more than a decade? ;-]

 

None of us has enough time. I imagine that's one reason why people use sniping software, so that they don't need to be personally engaged in the toil and trouble of doing the bidding themselves. Before I read about sniping software in this forum I didn't even know that it existed, and until I started looking for examples on Google (Thanks for the tip, Brian!), I had no idea so many sniping products were out there in the ether competing against each other as auctions wind down.

 

Set up the software, walk away, and find out later if you've won. That seems impersonal to me and removes the enjoyment of competing for gear against another human being. But then, maybe I'm just old fashioned. I prefer to think there's a person on the other end of the wire.

 

Craig

Craig, all that the sniping software does is make eBay more like a sealed bid auction. Its still an auction, highest bidder still wins.

 

This personal involvement you're hung up on has no effect on the outcome. And your harping on it makes me think that you harbor the hope of being able to steal, as it were, goods offered on eBay. That or that you want to follow other people who search better than you to the really good stuff.

 

Auctions aren't competitions. They're a way of selling that, in ideal circumstances, maximizes the amount the seller will get for the item offered. Accept it.

 

When the circumstances are right, i.e., the commodities on offer are well-known and many examples of them are offered and bidders are fully aware of the alternatives they face, including ones off the auction site, then no seller gets much richer than he should and no buyer pays much more than he should. That kind of market works.

 

There are, though, buyers who see bidding as a competition that yields more than the item on offer, and they screw things up for the rest of us. Go be rational. Be cold-blooded. You'll be happier, and so will everyone else.

Hi Dan:

 

You said, "This personal involvement you're hung up on has no effect on the outcome." Fair enough, especially if computers are doing all of the bidding.

 

You also said, "Auctions aren't competitions." Of course they are. Otherwise, each item would have a single price and there would be no bidding.

 

Finally you note that you feel I am "harping," hoping to "steal," and that I want to "follow other people who search better" than I do to "the good stuff." Pretty damning words for someone you've never met. I am sorry if I offended you somehow. I didn't mean to harp, I don't steal, and I have no idea how to "follow other people to the good stuff" on eBay. I was simply making an observation. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

 

Best wishes,

 

Craig

This post has little to do with LF, but I will add my two cents worth. To me an auction is a

fair

way of getting the going market value for your goods. Most auctions I've been to, end

when

the highest bid is in, eg house auctions - not at a preset time. With ebay it is the seller

who

gets ripped off, as the auction ends at a pre determined time. Often the highest bid is not

in. As Dan says about auctions, "They're a way of selling that, in ideal circumstances,

maximizes the amount the seller will get for the item offered". But with ebay, often the

seller dosen't get what the maximum someone is willing to pay - which is then the market

value.

Why not have auctions with no time limit - the seller just sells when they think it has

reached the maximum price. I bet all those really wanting the goods would have their high

bids in early. Just my point of view!!!

Like someone has said, even with sniping software you still need to put in a higher bid

than any rival. The one time I used Powersnipe I was outbid, so what does that prove?

 

Whilst some might see these as sneaky tools, I prefer to look at them as a way in which

those on dial-up (like me) can level the playing-field a bit against the Broadband lot, and

also like a proxy bidder in a "real" auction. Mr Smith would probably approve I reckon. :-)

I agree with Anthony. Maybe an ending time should be set but the auction not end until no bids are submitted for a say 5 minute period after this time. As long as bids come in within 5 minutes of the last bid the auction continues. This would give a better price to the seller and also more money for Ebay.

Chuck/Anthony - ebay has been going for quite a while now and it is pretty clear how to use

it. You find an item you like and you are made aware of the exact end time of the auction. I

really can't see any problem with that system at all. I mean - it's pretty clear. My main

problem with ebay is forgetting when they end - I have been wanting an SWC for a while now,

and went to check on an auction I thought was finishing about 7pm and found out it had

finished at 4pm. The cheapest SWC I have seen for months as well. Oh well.........

"My main problem with ebay is forgetting when they end - I have been wanting an SWC for a while now, and went to check on an auction I thought was finishing about 7pm and found out it had finished at 4pm. The cheapest SWC I have seen for months as well. Oh well."

 

Avoiding that problem is one of the main reasons for using a sniping program, I'd suggest you start using one. Craig has provided a helpful list here, any of them will probably work fine but FWIW I've been very happy with esnipe. I set it to bid 4 seconds before the end of the auction and it's never yet failed to get the bid in.

I thought that e-bay allowed you to set some sort of max bid if you wished, and that was it. I have used it twice, got the item for below max once and got outbid the other, and refused to bid higher.

 

Now, what useful purpose does sniping provide other than the thrill of the chase? I have never understood it considering the set max bid option. I must be missing something here.

There's a pretty good chance of you don't snipe that you will end up paying more than you need to.

 

Snipping has a number of advantages:

 

A snipe bid doesnt expose your maximum bid. The final price may well be lower if your bid is not a matter of record till the last few seconds. If you put in a bid early on, someone might bid up so they can find your maximum (if they really want the thing, of course).

 

Your snipe bid can't be bumped up and up and up by nibblers who rebid and rebid until they find their limits. And it can't be bumped up and up and up by shills who withdraw their bids after finding the high bidders maximum.

 

There is often a "psychological" effect of bids going on the actual auction and the price creeping up and up during its course ( good for the seller - not so good for the buyer). This doesn't happen if as much if you snipe and no-one knows what you will bid (or that you are bidding) until the very last seconds

 

A snipe bid can be cancelled until placed. This is sometimes quite useful. For example it allows for multiple bids on similar items that are automatically cancelled if one is won. Not so easily done on ebay. Or you may have placed your bid early on, then you see another item you would rather bid on.

 

A snipe bid is also invisible. If you manage to find "buried treasure" (good camera gear is often placed in the wrong category, or a brand name misspelled etc), sniping for it makes it impossible for others to use me to find what you've found.

Hi Tim:

 

I thought your summary of the advantages of using sniping software was excellent - well thought out and comprehensive. Thanks, I think I'm beginning to understand why there are so many of these products available and why people use them, although I still personally wish people were competing instead of machines. Call me crazy but I like the idea that some people get emotionally involved in these sales and I am sure that the sellers do, too. I also find it a little bit weird imagining all of those silent, watchful computers out there fighting at the last minute over this lens or that camera body. Creeps me out. ;-]

 

On a slightly less serious note, when I was collecting those URLs I noticed that almost all of these companies offer some free use of their products. In theory, since there are so many of them, if one were only an occasional bidder on eBay it should be possible to use one after another after another and never pay for their use. Now, lest I be called a lot of names by others in this forum, I am not advocating that anyone do that. I am just observing that it might be possible.

 

One last observation - a couple of people have questioned what this topic has to do with large format photography. In my view it has quite a lot to do with large format photography because so many of us newcomers acquire most of our equipment used on eBay. We need to do this intelligently or we could end up wasting a lot of money and possibly become unhappy with the whole field. Understanding sniping software and how and why it is used will help us be more intelligent consumers of eBay services, and perhaps even happier photographers since we'll have more money to spend on more stuff.

 

Best wishes,

 

Craig

What you guys are missing is not so much the thrill of the chase as the practical "don't overpay" aspects of sniping.

 

In a perfect market the highest bidder and the willing seller get together and yadda yadda yadda. In a REAL market, there is imperfect knowledge, imperfect communications, alternatives to consider, and time pressure, to name but a few flaws. The ebay softare, if used as designed and described, will allow the buyer to set a maximum price and it will keep that person on top until they are outbid. The problem with that is that is tends to maximize the amount the buyer pays. Good for the seller, bad for the buyer. The buyer may be *willing* to pay a large amount for an item, but they would *prefer* to pay less. This is a practical consideration that perfect Market theory just doesn't account for. This isn't about a philosoical meeting of the minds, this is about a buyer rying to maximize return on his dollar.

 

Thus you see people that tend to bid incrementally, trying to just top the highest bidder, but go no further. They are trying to protect themselves from having hudreds of dollars ripped from their pockets by other bidders. By just topping the high bidder, they leave the decision to go further in their own hands, not the hands of the next guy that happens to see the item.

 

The bidder that bids their true maximum early in the auction leaves themself exposed to this incremental bidding for the length of the auction. Eventually they will be overcome. Conversely, a sniper is only leaving their maximum out there for a few seconds. The only threat to them is another sniper that is bidding a true maximum. They can still lose to being outbid, but it is less likely to happen in a few seconds than a few days. Time works in the favor of the buyer, tending to lower the purchase price.

 

Even if you don't like or believe in last second sniping, just think of a person randomly trolling ebay. If they see a bid one week before the end of the auction, they have one week to decide how much to bid. If they see it one day before the end, they have one day. Similarly with one hour and one minute. If they have only one second, they are effecively out of the running. Time matters.

 

One last thing on time. Other auction sites have, and I suppose still do, work on the "time since last bid" principle. They died off. For whatever reason they didn't make it. I suspect it is because buyers eventually realized they were being squeezed for their last dollar. Every auction will always be of the highest possible amount at that time. There will never be any "deals" to hope for, so there is less motivation to search deeply for an item you might want that seems to be getting little attention (like on ebay). Might as well just buy from a store.

 

Like it or not, keeping the buyers happy is a necessary condition of any auction site. Sellers are important, but buyers are critical.

I appreciate the good answers. I had never figured on the ramifications of somebody running your bid up just for the heck of seeing how high your bid is. Anyway, I average about a purchase every two years on e-bay, so I guess I won't bother to change my procedure. But I am copying your answers for some folk I know who use it a lot.

 

Thanks again.