a new shutter for a 127 ysarex?

Discussion in 'Large Format' started by daniel_jansen, Feb 6, 2008.

  1. I have an old lens from a polaroid with the prontor SVS. with the help of Noah
    and Dean, and also through other posts (which I should have found first), I was
    able to disassemble it and attempt to clean it. Well, despite washing out a lot
    of dirt and grease, it still hangs in the open position. So my question is
    this; is it possible to mount this in another shutter without modifications? How
    standard are these designs?

    I should mention that I will be using tis on a monorail so larger controls and a
    preview lever would be ideal, but I'll take what I can get (cheap).
     
  2. A Lf shutter is essentially a clock mounted within a spacer.

    any shutter which provides the right size between the elements will do and if not you can use shims or machine the rear of the shutter.

    Because a shutter function is related to chronology obtaining proper function goes beyond the ability to get it to work mechanically and requires it is properly calibrated in the tension of the springs and the lubrication must be non detergent and in older shutters where rust is already present it will be one cleanup job after the next unless you address everything,

    You either think you save money and end up ruining valuable film or you buy something which is inexpensive like a complete used lens staple of commerce which is sold used in the auction site without requiring the whole amateurish approach and risk involved unless you are fascinated by ending up with half breeds at a cost higher or same than you can obtain something decent.

    You can buy a problem free lens on the auction site for a couple of hundreds.

    a copal 0 cost more than that and the proper aperture scale cost as well.

    The most inexpensive approach is not to make shutter repairs if you are not experienced because the cost of film has gone up and if you plan to use the lens then you expect it to work properly.

    If you expect it to be iffy and that is Ok my take is that why bother with LF when if cost is the concern and MF is less expensive then if it is expected to work as if a clock but you don't care you are wasting time . Clock - time. Pun intended . time is money.

    There is no inexpensive way to do what you want to do well and my opinion is that unless it is done well it is not worth the effort .

    The fact that this came out of a Polaroid and was not costly because of planned obsolescence that ends when you wish to make it viable if what is required isn't present because fixing what didn't cost you or what did has a similar cost.

    Your best bet is to either buy a complete unit for a price you can afford or buy another ysarex lens which has a problem free shutter or a shutter which just needs cleaning.

    Someone who puts a shutter into cleaning solution and then blows compressed air into it and gets it to work again is not a shutter repairman by any length and because each instance is different you either know what you are doing or have to send it to someone who does.

    repairing a clock is inexpensive only of you know what you are doing
    with a shutter it is no different but when the thing is old even a good repair is no assurance of longevity because if it needed repair then the wear is already present while a shutter that just works well after a mera cleaning is a shutter which was used less and a better deal over a problem shutter no matter who you send it to.

    mechanics spacer and aperture scale are there for a reason and precise.

    I don't think you can do a hack job on shutters and hope that will be inexpensive in the long run.

    Of course many will say otherwise hoping to appear friendly and proficient but I take the opinion of those who have gone out on the field and got stuck with a shutter malfunction before I accept the opinion of people who tell you that everything can be done half-

    That is because I used to have this guy who worked for prontor and was involved with the svs and one time I was on an important assignment with one of these lenses on a pack film 3x4 camera versus another one which I tried to save money on and DIY beyond my expertise and I learned the hard way 10 years ago where to draw the line and so I do what I'm proficient at and nothing else.

    I have had these shutters repaired by the best and in the end the repaired shutters always had problems later wheras the shutters woth little wear may some day have a problem . I choose the latter .

    Being able to repair a shutter doesn't mean you can make a good camera and not being able to repair one doesn't mean you make a bad one. and then there is the jack of all trades factor and more of a distraction to what I should concentrate on so I stay away from it unless its a turn of the century shutter than nobody wants to mess with

    It is a job by itself and I can repair almost any shutter I have tried to but have found it to be extremely time consuming if it is expected to be perfect and to last and therefore when it needs more than a cleaning I send it out.

    In your case without a doubt the most practical solution is to get an identical shutter and which just needs cleaning as everything else is either costly upfront or in future disappointment.

    A decent aperture scale will run +/- 50 and with out that you might as well just get an identical replacement shutter and live without the aperture preview lever.

    these were amateur versions made by prontor an a lot of the german folders and 35mm cameras. not worth repairing at all.

    trust me it is better to find a working replacement as the least expensive solution if cleaning yours proves to be an insufficient effort.

     
  3. Dan, why go to the trouble? Another #1 shutter will cost you more than a 127/4.7 Tominon on Copal Press #1 or 127/4.7 Ektar would be a lot less expensive and would do you. Also, unless you're wedded to a slightly wide for the format lens that doesn't allow much in the way of movements on 4x5, why not get a 150 mm lens in shutter?
     
  4. The thing that concerns me about spending money on these lenses is that I've noticed
    lately that they seem to rapidly develop Schneideritis, which significantly degrades their
    performance. Especially when you use them for 4x5. In order to repaint the surfaces, you
    need to machine the elements out of their housings, and then re-machine them back into
    their housings.<p>That being said, if you can find a later model Prontor shutter from a
    Polaroid 110B, instead of the 110A model you have, you'll have better luck repairing the
    shutter. But these shutters aren't designed for use on a view camera. There's no preview,
    and the self-timer mechanism always cocks whether or not you use it.<p>THAT being
    said, your lens cells can be transferred into a Copal #0 shutter, but why bother ? Listen to
    what Dan said.
     
  5. Thanks for the help guys. I see now that my money would be better invested in a more appropriate lens. For the sake of clarity, would this lens need to be shimmed if used in another model of shutter or can you simply screw them all the way in as with the original?
     
  6. You would have to measure the lens in it's original shutter and then in the new shutter.
    There are always small variations, but from Copal to Copal, or Prontor to Prontor, they are
    usually within .0005".
     
  7. ... and that would be AFTER you tested the lens optically to see if it was worth doing this in
    the first place.
     
  8. Noah is correct, by checking the overall dimension of the elements in the original shutter, installing them into a later Copal 0 then checking to see a similar measurement, the transplant should prove beneficial. The Rodenstock Ysarex is a very capable lens that can render very sharp results. There is a certain $100,000 camera on auction at present that features the same Rodenstock elements fitted into a Copal 0, so this should help you decide whether or not whether the lens is good enough.
    00OKvT-41590984.jpg
     
  9. Dean, not to quarrel with you but it seems to me that the question of what the OP should do is an economic one. He has a set of cells, wants a lens in shutter than he can use. He can certainly find a new shutter for the cells but it isn't clear to me that a #0 in good order (= a used one + a CLA) will cost less than an equivalent used lens in good order.

    Cheers,

    Dan
     
  10. Dan, You are quite correct in suggesting an alternative, but I guess it all depends on what is available. It is true that a decent Copal O will be worth far more than a Prontor/Ysarex set up, but another problem is that Daniel wants to use the lens on a monorail....
    Whilst a sharp little lens that just covers 4x5, there is absolutely no room for movements, so this venture would be a waste of time IMHO. I have a large box full of Ysarex/Ennit/Yashinnon 127mm elements, but a severe shortage of #O shutters.
    Whilst these shutters can be repaired occasionally, most earlier types just loose spring tension or they are worn out completely. It is not clear what solvent Daniel used to wash out the shutter, but blade wash certainly works well for me. Now and then I have to replace the governor unit.....but if someone feels the need for a challenge, why not dismantle and reassemble a shutter completely, aperture/shutter leaves and all. It does wonders for one's mind and body, it just takes a little while........
     
  11. Noah, why would a Rodenstock lens suffer from "Schneideritis"? Surely Rodenstockitis (separation of the cementing) is far more likely.

    Anyway. Daniel, are you sure that the shutter is dead? My Prontor press has two release sockets; one operates the shutter normally and the other operates the shutter in "preview" mode for focusing. So, silly and obvious question, you are operating the correct cable release socket aren't you?

    A suitable substitute for the Ysarex, which is just a Tessar clone, would be a 135mm Schneider Xenar. These are quite common and usually come fitted in old Compur shutters, which go on forever.

    I have some ancient lenses that I've picked up for next-to-nothing, fitted in old black Compurs - the ones with the round speed setting dial sticking out of the top. Nearly every one of these shutters still works properly. You just need a magnifying glass to see the shutter speed markings, that's all!
     
  12. RJ, PMFJI. Schneideritis is separation of the black paint on the rims of the lens' elements from the glass. It bubbles up. This is very different from separation of the cement between the elements.

    Many makes of lens suffer from Schneideritis, including Rodenstocks.

    Some, not all, Prontor Press (I have #00, #0, and #1) shutters have a second cable socket for press focus. The Prontor on Polarod 110s is, IIRC (if I'm wrong Dean or Noah will correct), a cock and shoot SVS. Not that much like the self-cocking press shutter you're thinking of.

    Migod, you have good luck with old Compurs. Most of the ones I've bought were off at most, usually all, speeds.
     
  13. PMFJI ? LMAO ! TGF www.acronymfinder.com.
    Old Compur shutters are the bees knees to repair.
    The great frustration is that the black paint in these lenses has reached some sort of 'half-life', and turns white. That's why Dean and I both prefer the Yashinon lens in the Seikosha shutter. The lenses don't turn, and the shutters are just as good as the day they were made.
     
  14. I decided to order a 150mm Fuji lens from KEH. I got the ysarex with a broken camera attached for $20, it has decent coverage by my estimation but I have not tested it with film, so investing $100 would be risky. I need this , my first large format camera, ready for photography class soon.

    In regards to cleaning solvent, I could not find the blade wash that was recommended by Dean and I opted for non-chlorinated brake cleaner. I do not recommend this for this application because it does not allow soaking and appears to leave residue upon the shutter and aperture blades.

    Upon further drying it seems that the shutter's behavior is significantly different. Now the blades often open when cocking and the resistance of the cocking spring is either very strong or very weak. I suspect that, when stiff, the cocking lever is moving the timing. Oh well, now that I'm not afraid of breaking it, I get to learn how this thing works.
     
  15. I have too a lens in such conditions (a 127mm ysarex in its original prontor shutter). I was able to unscrew the rear element, but I have no clue on how to unscrew the front element, it's too stiff and there are no notches or screws. How do I remove it from the shutter? thanks
     
  16. rdm

    rdm

    Which is better , the Polaroid 110 with the Ennit or one with the Yashinnon 127mm elements. I was thinking of buying one.
     
  17. rdm

    rdm

    is this thread dead or is anyone still watching it?
     

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