A listing of GREAT LEICA FORUM DEBATES

Discussion in 'Leica and Rangefinders' started by abufletcher, Dec 8, 2004.

  1. I thought it might be useful to newcomers to the forum to alert them to some of
    the classic and long raging debates the simmer below the surface on most
    posts and occassion erupt with violent fury. Here are a few that immediately
    come to mind, can anyone add others?

    1. The Digital vs. Film debate

    2. The Rangefinder Style debate

    3. The Gear Doesn't Matter debate (actually a variant of the #2)

    4. The Leica Glass/Glow debate

    5. The Body vs. Lens debate

    6. The Fondler/Collector vs. User debate

    7. The RF's are for Street Photography debate

    8. The Great Bokeh debate (often a variant on #4)


    It seems only fair to let newcomers know where the mindfields are! Any other
    GRAND DEBATES that lend form to the landscape of the Leica Forum?
     
  2. "where the mindfields are"

    I can imagine that'll blow their minds.........

    :)))
     
  3. You forgot the all important black vs.chrome ;*)
     
  4. Harvey, oops!
     
  5. Oh, and the Wrong Way Dial debate...but these are minor hills.
     
  6. ...and whether or not ANY of these debates, as a subject of debate, are worthy of debating here on the forum.
     
  7. Never heard of #12 Peter and I've been here for quite awhile.
    Who argue that?
     
  8. 14 - Coffee with Al Kaplan.
     
  9. Don't forget the Konica KM-mount backfocus paradox.
     
  10. The Al-T shirts(!)
     
  11. 15. Coffee and ?~@%$ with Al Kaplan

    16. Is there such a thing as a Leica 'bargain', or is the very idea a degrading contradiction?
     
  12. The "Will Al ever get a scanner?" debate.

    The "I wish Jay would come back" debate.

    The "Does my black chrome, A la carte, MP have better bokeh even though it is locked in a safe?" debate.

    The "Will my Leica work if I put colour film in it?" debate.

    The "Will Leica go down the pan before or after they produce a digital rangefinder that is not as good as the Epson RD1, costs $10,000 and is 5 years late?" debate.

    The "All you Leica users are scum compared to me and my MF using 'pro' friends" debate (Scott Eaton.)

    The "My Kodachrome 25 transparencies have 20 zillion zillion pixels and all my elderly, cattaract suffering, friends think my slideshows are way better than digital even on a $10 projector" debate.

    The "I have been taking B&W pics on a Leica M and Tri-X for 50 years so that is all I ever need to know and do not contradict me" debate.

    The "I must be HCB because I lurk around shopping malls taking sneaky pics of girls butts during my lunch hour" debate

    The "Why do shopping mall security guards always stop me taking pics" debate.
     
  13. The most annoying of these by far is the bokeh discussion. If you did a search on this entire
    site, the exact phrase "great bokeh" would appear literally billions of time. To me, what that
    comment says is: "otherwise, your photo is not worth looking at because the first thing I
    looked at was the background blur."
     
  14. How about these (unless I missed them above)

    * The Digital M and Leica can't do anything right debate.
     
  15. Seems like a lot of:

    Us vs Them

    and

    Me vs You
     
  16. Petition for the unbanning of Jay, Frank Petronio, and Kevin Meanderhall.
     
  17. Which would lead to a petition to ban Xxxxxx, Yyyyy & Zzzzz? Best to leave it to the moderators. They're doing a great job!
     
  18. ok, you asked for it:

    "Should I use an UV filter on my Leica lens? "

    regards
    jr
     
  19. Morning Al! Please forgive my cheeky comment above!

    Is this a boat day or a photo day?
     
  20. Now Jonathan..... you are sailing too close to the wind that smacks of the beginnings
    of a coffee with Al debate.

    Y'all forgot, will my RF camera take sharper pics because there is no SLR mirror slap
    vibration to contend with...

    C.
     
  21. What about 35 v 50? <p>
    Literary and creative writing professionals often claim there are only 8 (or,
    sometimes, 20) basic plots. How fitting that Leicas can inspire even more
    storylines... hey, maybe there's a movie in it?
     
  22. Oh, also the biggie of not posting baby pics particularly if they are made with a late
    model Leica R fitted with aspheric lenses.

    And most important don't trash products made by Canon on the Leica forum, you can
    diss Leica R all you want, but Canon is off limits.

    C.
     
  23. 'Which gun is most like a Leica' turned up a lot of bleeding hearts.
     
  24. #269) What Leica REALLY needs to make next is.........
     
  25. 'Matt vs El Fang?"
     
  26. Jonathan, it's a beautiful sunny day, a few clouds, mid 70's (23 C), gentle breeze, and according to the guys at the fishing club meeting last night the mahi-mahi are still around along with blackfin tuna, a few wahoo, and kingfish. But it's neither a boat day or a photo day, it's a go in the damned darkroom day and make a bunch of contact sheets;-(
     
  27. #372 Ostrich skin v. elephant penis: which exotic Leica body covering will last better when stored in a safe deposit box and never exposed to daylight?
     
  28. what happened with matt and el fang??
     
  29. #372a Which finish looks better with elephallus: Shintaro Safari Hammertone, or Taxi "Circus is coming to town" Yellow?
     
  30. "What happened with Matt and El Fang" has been a Great Debate in itself.
     
  31. #316 Which movie star uses ,which leica?
     
  32. I havent seen a "Should I put black tape over my Leica badge so I can remain inconspicuous" thread for ages now. They are my favourites (Not!)
     
  33. What about "Should I sell my Noctilux, as I attract lots of attention with such a big lens on my camera?"
     
  34. "Why was xxxx thread deleted?"
     
  35. I think "black vs. chrome" belongs in the top three. It scores high on both the frequency and pointlessness scales, and it has many sub-variants: black chrome vs. black paint, best tape for disguising chrome camera, slickest way to cover the red dot, etc.
     
  36. My favorite: The ongoing death match of the Unpublished Professionals vs. Clueless Amateurs
     
  37. I have to say there are not really all that many black vs.chrome threads. Much more common are threads such as "Which Summicron 35?". There is also the great UV filter debate...
     
  38. Lately, you're right--the black vs. chrome threads have dwindled. I remember for a while, it was almost impossible to get a straight answer for them since almost everyone on the board had already been over that "debate" half a dozen times. After a while, people were even running out of joke responses.
     
  39. My favorite:

    A Bug's Life: How tracking down and insulting some contributors from thread to thread,
    even preemtively, has brought joy and purpose to my life.
     
  40. The Anmsell Adams versus the HCBs. The zone system versus grey card.
     
  41. My favouite is MP vs. M7.
     
  42. The "do you have to trim the film to load a screwmount" debate.

    The collapsible vs. rigid lens debate.

    The "is the summitar a good lens" debate.

    The "is Sherr Krauter competent" debate.
     
  43. Will you still talk to me if I put a VC lens on my Leica?

    Will the same VC lens take better pictures and have better bokek on a Leica body?
     
  44. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    making pictures Vs. typing
     
  45. 9. Is Jay really the pancake bunny?
     
  46. Im like it Eric - a true answer to item 1.
     
  47. I like it Eric - a true answer to item 1.
     
  48. Is it OK to post pictures made with a 16x20 camera on the Leica Photography Forum?
     
  49. Peter A,

    You must have been doped and drunk. I said 12 not 13:*)


    Eric,

    Was your comment directed toward grant? I think he skipped
    grade school english and went straight to SP 101 and post grad
    oneliner sarcasm:*)
     
  50. "Is it OK to post pictures made with a 16x20 camera on the Leica Photography Forum"

    Jim, sure as long as it is in the rangefinder style. You just have to make a long crop
    and label it as M6 35 summicron. I do all the time.

    C.
     
  51. "My camera appears to be broken - do I really need to repair it?"
     
  52. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    "Eric,

    Was your comment directed toward grant? I think he skipped grade school english and went straight to SP 101 and post grad oneliner sarcasm:*)"

    re. typing Vs. shooting.

    No Leslie, it was directed towards all of us that type on internet forums more than we shoot. Heck, sometimes i spend two or three hours here, nice and warm, looking for material to post when i could have been into the city centre and back with a few rolls shot off.
     
  53. The "you really should get to know your subject in order to make a viable picture of him/her/it" debate
     
  54. How does #6 count as a debate?
     
  55. Lets not debate the debate over #6. Too controversial I think we should move on.
     
  56. Oooh...A meta-debate! Somehow, I just don't see that happening in the Minolta forum.<p><p><img src="http://home.woh.rr.com/anl/images/smiley.jpg">
     
  57. What ever did HAPPEN to Jay, I miss him.
     
  58. Yeah, I really miss hearing about how stupid I am for not using protective filters and for carrying my camera over my shoulder instead of around my neck. Also fun to hear about how having a dinged-up camera is evidence of pyschological deficiencies.

    It's unfortunate that the "pro-Jay vs. anti-Jay" debate should probably be added to the list.
     
  59. I miss his advice for travelling in foreign countries:

    'walk with a purposeful stride...smashing skulls' and all that.
     
  60. Spearhead

    Spearhead Moderator

    I miss him. He stated his opinions. He didn't pick out people he disagreed with and constantly bring them up, even on threads they don't post on. He may have been an old sourpuss, but he I didn't see him as mean or vindictive.
     
  61. I remember Jay's comments on avoiding a confrontation by using body language that made it clear you were ready for one if necessary. It's not bad advice.

    I know a contributor to this forum who, when confronted with two thugs who appeared to have interest in an involuntary exchange of Leica ownership, used Jay-Fu to good effect. He held it in such a way, with only a little neck strap free between camera and fist, to communicate to the thugs: you might this get this chrome, minty, and recently CLA'd flail from me, but your blood will be all over it. When the bad guys saw he was ready to fight, they turned around and walked away.

    Of course, Leicas aren't made to be weapons, and who wants a salty harangue from Sherry? "What's this embedded in the floorplate lock? Scalp?! I'm not cleaning this, d*mm*t!" Better to be prepared in that regard, too. (Hey, this is the GRAND DEBATES thread, right?)

    Predators generally look for weak prey.
     
  62. Jeff: "[Jay] I miss him"

    So do I. He was strange but benign.

    "He didn't pick out people he disagreed with and constantly bring them up........"

    Yeah, some people right now are behaving more like online stalkers than rational
    contributors.
     
  63. When I was new to this forum I found Jay's contribution extremely helpful. I
    credit him with convincing me to go with a recent minty M6TTL rather than
    even an M6 classic that might soon need a CLA. At the time I didn't have a
    clue how the TTL might be different from the classic or even what CLA meant.
    Jay enlightened me on all this.

    Jay seemed to have become increasingly bitter about all Leica cameras but
    was still knowledgeable. He was often (usually?) abrupt -- but that way in
    equal measure to everyone. If we here on the Leica forum got to vote on
    "who leaves the island" I don't image that Jay would have gone first.
     
  64. None of these debates even skimmed the surface of this great conversation Littman 45s and polaroid 110 Mr littman's responses are fantastic if you have a spare hour or two
     
  65. It may flatter you to think so, but there's no "vindictiveness" going on here, it's merely a strong reaction to those who continue to treat the Leica forum as their personal chamberpot. Stop coming here to mock, ridicule and condescend and you won't get that reaction.
     
  66. No vindictiveness - that's funny. Why do you attack preemptively? It's your life's mission -
    you follow him around and make tiny snide remarks. You are not the forum's deputy
    sheriff - though it really is kind of cute watching you believe that you are. Consider
    meditation, it can help you refocus that bad energy.
     
  67. personal chamberpot

    Sorry Kevin, but are we talking about following the party line? He's entitled to his views the same as anyone else;love or leave them. Enjoying the banter, but then i'm wicked. Perhaps we should all agree about everything...would be a bit boring, don't you think?
     
  68. Anyway, with a backward flip, i'm going to land on Z's shoulders..to cheer him up. Going to whisper in his left ear because the pink rabbit thing whispers in his righr ear.

    Thanks for the fun folks; got the flu ....latter.
     
  69. You guys have a funny way of defining 'attack.' If you mean mentioning something someone said in thread "A" in thread "B" when it's relevant to the discussion, well, that's memory, not an attack.

    Here's a more recent 'memory' exercise for you, Brad: In the "David vs. Goliath" thread, the moderators rightly deleted all the insults, but they also deleted your initial posting, too, didn't they? Remember that one, the one where you displayed all the sarcasm, condescension and scorn a 13-year old girl could muster? That's what started it all.
     
  70. Kevin, a shame you can't address what was posed to you without going into a childish,
    "Yeah, but you said..." or a "Yeah, but he started it..." type response.

    Speaking of sarcasm, try losing yours and this ferocious anger - you've been carrying this
    grudge for a long time. Though as I said before it really is kinda cute watching you in
    action...
     
  71. Looks like we've got our own Barney Fife around here.
     
  72. Here's one you forgot, guys. The most widespread of all:<p>
    # How to turn the most sensible, the most benign and lighthearted threads into schoolyard fist fights
     
  73. So cause and effect and memory don't count? That's weird. Because it's not a 'grudge' or 'anger' but a reaction to comments here on this forum over the last couple of years. On several occasions, I've tried to have reasonable discussions with you and Jeff and Grant about the topics you love to mock, like "lens characteristics" or "bokeh" only to have example pics held up for unsolicited critique and a childish level of ridicule. You've done it to others, too. How many times on this forum has someone said words to the effect of 'That's why you don't see me posting pics here?' Have you ever noticed?
    That kind of behavior discourages the participation of others, that's what bugs me. The condescending, sneering attitude keeps other away, and it makes the forum less interesting and less fun than it could be.
     
  74. "# How to turn the most sensible, the most benign and lighthearted threads into schoolyard fist fights"--

    Well, I can see you "Leica guys" have mastered something, anyway.....(back to the Canon, Medium Format and Collector Camera forums where reason and civility prevail...)
     
  75. (back to the Canon, Medium Format and Collector Camera forums where reason and civility prevail...)
    G'wan, get outta here, fist fights keep your senses sharp and finely tuned....
     
  76. aint nothin like a little pain to make one realize life itself
     
  77. Yeah....and if you ever show your face again we'll give you something to realize...geesh, Canon users.
     
  78. Jeff (www.spirer.com) wrote, regarding "Jay":"... He didn't pick out people he disagreed with and constantly bring them up, even on threads they don't post on."
    Yes he did. Not by name, but by inference on this forum and on several others
     
  79. well said Peter

    I love this forum, it's such a good waste of my time.
     
  80. if you can post good pix and be friendly at the same time, why not? Why post good pix and be so called a thug at other times? alot of people can be thugs too if they chooses to, but they didn't. So Im supposed to look at your pix and judge your personality and not by the way you talk to people around here?

    funny.
     
  81. rowlett

    rowlett Moderator

    Sandy was never booted! Not that I know of, anyway.
     
  82. The trouble is when others take it upon themselves to be the forum deputy sheriff and
    control speech. I was taken to task above because my comment about the recent Leica-
    Canon size expose` thread was deemed sarcastic - yes, it was somewhat, and at my
    prerogative. And others felt the same, BTW. Yet the forum guardian's comment taking me
    to task on that was dripping with sarcasm. Kind of a double standard. He wants to be in
    control of what can be said here. Not his job, and his tracking people crosses the line and
    is a little spooky.
     
  83. If the main interest of those who come here to scorn and mock Leica users was really, truly photography, as they claim, then the Street and Documentary forum wouldn't be the ghost town it is.

    I guess the sport of poking fun here is a bigger draw than posting pics there.
     
  84. Spearhead

    Spearhead Moderator

    The Street and Documentary Forum has light traffic because a) it is tightly moderated, and b) it isn't in the pull-down for historical reasons. Also, a really good post gets a response "post this on the Leica Forum," which is a violation of photo.net guidelines against cross-posting and doesn't help that forum. However, the overall quality of posts is extremely high because of a) above.
    On several occasions, I've tried to have reasonable discussions with you and Jeff and Grant about the topics you love to mock, like "lens characteristics" or "bokeh" only to have example pics held up for unsolicited critique and a childish level of ridicule.
    Maybe you can give some examples of where Kevin has posted something useful on these threads that these misreferenced incidents have occurred on.
     
  85. how bout some cheese with your whine kevin?
     
  86. If you back someone - anyone, into a corner,...
    Ain't no corners in this forum and if this forum had walls they'd be round and most likely padded.
     
  87. I agree. Everyone gets funky at times.

    I agree with Peter on the value of contributions. Even though it is everyone's business to post pictures or not, those who do post in w/nw threads and such, get more respect in my book, because their work provides a reference point (for me) and not a vaporware.

    Case in point is Grant (sorry for bringing you into this). He gets flak from members here for being brutally honest yet I never considered him offensive because his comments felt true every time. He posts myriad of shots here and you just know this guy is a photographer at heart. You've got to respect that no matter how tough he is on you.

    On the other hand some guys never post a shot yet they talk a great deal. Even though their talk is good it isn't enough for me to feel the respect to them (sorry guys). Take this as my humble opinion FWIW.
     
  88. if you think im going to that bed and breakfast with you rene, youre wrong, so stop emailing me.....
     
  89. call me 8-D
    00AOIA-20840784.jpg
     
  90. >>>>>if you can post good pix and be friendly at the same time,
    why not? Why post good pix and be so called a thug at other
    times? alot of people can be thugs too if they chooses to, but
    they didn't. So Im supposed to look at your pix and judge your
    personality and not by the way you talk to people around here?
    <<<<<

    I can't agree more with Travis.
     
  91. edmo said:
    "Ain't no corners in this forum and if this forum had walls they'd be round and most likely padded."

    How right you are.
     
  92. Also, a really good post gets a response "post this on the Leica Forum

    It?s where the main action is Jeff. Anyway, what's all this rule thing about? Folks don't really like rules, boring things.

    if you think im going to that bed

    It's not all about signing autographs, Grant. Sacrifice it for the fans.
     
  93. Bob Marley, right?<p>
    "The road of life is rocky<br>
    And you may stumble, too.<br>
    So while you talk about me,<br>
    Someone else is judging you . . ."<p>
    I think he also said it's foolish dog that barks at a flying bird.
     
  94. When you point your finger cos your plan fell through

    You got three more fingers pointing back at you

    - Dire Straits
     
  95. "Bring me my pistol and three round balls, gonna shoot anybody I don't like at all..." hot tuna: true religion
     
  96. "Let he who has not sinned

    cast the first rock,

    and i shall smoketh it"

    -CrackHead Dave
     

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