I thought it might be useful to newcomers to the forum to alert them to some of the classic and long raging debates the simmer below the surface on most posts and occassion erupt with violent fury. Here are a few that immediately come to mind, can anyone add others? 1. The Digital vs. Film debate 2. The Rangefinder Style debate 3. The Gear Doesn't Matter debate (actually a variant of the #2) 4. The Leica Glass/Glow debate 5. The Body vs. Lens debate 6. The Fondler/Collector vs. User debate 7. The RF's are for Street Photography debate 8. The Great Bokeh debate (often a variant on #4) It seems only fair to let newcomers know where the mindfields are! Any other GRAND DEBATES that lend form to the landscape of the Leica Forum?
...and whether or not ANY of these debates, as a subject of debate, are worthy of debating here on the forum.
15. Coffee and ?~@%$ with Al Kaplan 16. Is there such a thing as a Leica 'bargain', or is the very idea a degrading contradiction?
The "Will Al ever get a scanner?" debate. The "I wish Jay would come back" debate. The "Does my black chrome, A la carte, MP have better bokeh even though it is locked in a safe?" debate. The "Will my Leica work if I put colour film in it?" debate. The "Will Leica go down the pan before or after they produce a digital rangefinder that is not as good as the Epson RD1, costs $10,000 and is 5 years late?" debate. The "All you Leica users are scum compared to me and my MF using 'pro' friends" debate (Scott Eaton.) The "My Kodachrome 25 transparencies have 20 zillion zillion pixels and all my elderly, cattaract suffering, friends think my slideshows are way better than digital even on a $10 projector" debate. The "I have been taking B&W pics on a Leica M and Tri-X for 50 years so that is all I ever need to know and do not contradict me" debate. The "I must be HCB because I lurk around shopping malls taking sneaky pics of girls butts during my lunch hour" debate The "Why do shopping mall security guards always stop me taking pics" debate.
The most annoying of these by far is the bokeh discussion. If you did a search on this entire site, the exact phrase "great bokeh" would appear literally billions of time. To me, what that comment says is: "otherwise, your photo is not worth looking at because the first thing I looked at was the background blur."
How about these (unless I missed them above) * The Digital M and Leica can't do anything right debate.
Which would lead to a petition to ban Xxxxxx, Yyyyy & Zzzzz? Best to leave it to the moderators. They're doing a great job!
Now Jonathan..... you are sailing too close to the wind that smacks of the beginnings of a coffee with Al debate. Y'all forgot, will my RF camera take sharper pics because there is no SLR mirror slap vibration to contend with... C.
What about 35 v 50? <p> Literary and creative writing professionals often claim there are only 8 (or, sometimes, 20) basic plots. How fitting that Leicas can inspire even more storylines... hey, maybe there's a movie in it?
Oh, also the biggie of not posting baby pics particularly if they are made with a late model Leica R fitted with aspheric lenses. And most important don't trash products made by Canon on the Leica forum, you can diss Leica R all you want, but Canon is off limits. C.
Jonathan, it's a beautiful sunny day, a few clouds, mid 70's (23 C), gentle breeze, and according to the guys at the fishing club meeting last night the mahi-mahi are still around along with blackfin tuna, a few wahoo, and kingfish. But it's neither a boat day or a photo day, it's a go in the damned darkroom day and make a bunch of contact sheets;-(
#372 Ostrich skin v. elephant penis: which exotic Leica body covering will last better when stored in a safe deposit box and never exposed to daylight?
#372a Which finish looks better with elephallus: Shintaro Safari Hammertone, or Taxi "Circus is coming to town" Yellow?
I havent seen a "Should I put black tape over my Leica badge so I can remain inconspicuous" thread for ages now. They are my favourites (Not!)
What about "Should I sell my Noctilux, as I attract lots of attention with such a big lens on my camera?"
I think "black vs. chrome" belongs in the top three. It scores high on both the frequency and pointlessness scales, and it has many sub-variants: black chrome vs. black paint, best tape for disguising chrome camera, slickest way to cover the red dot, etc.
I have to say there are not really all that many black vs.chrome threads. Much more common are threads such as "Which Summicron 35?". There is also the great UV filter debate...
Lately, you're right--the black vs. chrome threads have dwindled. I remember for a while, it was almost impossible to get a straight answer for them since almost everyone on the board had already been over that "debate" half a dozen times. After a while, people were even running out of joke responses.
My favorite: A Bug's Life: How tracking down and insulting some contributors from thread to thread, even preemtively, has brought joy and purpose to my life.
The "do you have to trim the film to load a screwmount" debate. The collapsible vs. rigid lens debate. The "is the summitar a good lens" debate. The "is Sherr Krauter competent" debate.
Will you still talk to me if I put a VC lens on my Leica? Will the same VC lens take better pictures and have better bokek on a Leica body?
Peter A, You must have been doped and drunk. I said 12 not 13:*) Eric, Was your comment directed toward grant? I think he skipped grade school english and went straight to SP 101 and post grad oneliner sarcasm:*)
"Is it OK to post pictures made with a 16x20 camera on the Leica Photography Forum" Jim, sure as long as it is in the rangefinder style. You just have to make a long crop and label it as M6 35 summicron. I do all the time. C.
"Eric, Was your comment directed toward grant? I think he skipped grade school english and went straight to SP 101 and post grad oneliner sarcasm:*)" re. typing Vs. shooting. No Leslie, it was directed towards all of us that type on internet forums more than we shoot. Heck, sometimes i spend two or three hours here, nice and warm, looking for material to post when i could have been into the city centre and back with a few rolls shot off.
The "you really should get to know your subject in order to make a viable picture of him/her/it" debate
Oooh...A meta-debate! Somehow, I just don't see that happening in the Minolta forum.<p><p><img src="http://home.woh.rr.com/anl/images/smiley.jpg">
Yeah, I really miss hearing about how stupid I am for not using protective filters and for carrying my camera over my shoulder instead of around my neck. Also fun to hear about how having a dinged-up camera is evidence of pyschological deficiencies. It's unfortunate that the "pro-Jay vs. anti-Jay" debate should probably be added to the list.
I miss his advice for travelling in foreign countries: 'walk with a purposeful stride...smashing skulls' and all that.
I miss him. He stated his opinions. He didn't pick out people he disagreed with and constantly bring them up, even on threads they don't post on. He may have been an old sourpuss, but he I didn't see him as mean or vindictive.
I remember Jay's comments on avoiding a confrontation by using body language that made it clear you were ready for one if necessary. It's not bad advice. I know a contributor to this forum who, when confronted with two thugs who appeared to have interest in an involuntary exchange of Leica ownership, used Jay-Fu to good effect. He held it in such a way, with only a little neck strap free between camera and fist, to communicate to the thugs: you might this get this chrome, minty, and recently CLA'd flail from me, but your blood will be all over it. When the bad guys saw he was ready to fight, they turned around and walked away. Of course, Leicas aren't made to be weapons, and who wants a salty harangue from Sherry? "What's this embedded in the floorplate lock? Scalp?! I'm not cleaning this, d*mm*t!" Better to be prepared in that regard, too. (Hey, this is the GRAND DEBATES thread, right?) Predators generally look for weak prey.
Jeff: "[Jay] I miss him" So do I. He was strange but benign. "He didn't pick out people he disagreed with and constantly bring them up........" Yeah, some people right now are behaving more like online stalkers than rational contributors.
When I was new to this forum I found Jay's contribution extremely helpful. I credit him with convincing me to go with a recent minty M6TTL rather than even an M6 classic that might soon need a CLA. At the time I didn't have a clue how the TTL might be different from the classic or even what CLA meant. Jay enlightened me on all this. Jay seemed to have become increasingly bitter about all Leica cameras but was still knowledgeable. He was often (usually?) abrupt -- but that way in equal measure to everyone. If we here on the Leica forum got to vote on "who leaves the island" I don't image that Jay would have gone first.
None of these debates even skimmed the surface of this great conversation Littman 45s and polaroid 110 Mr littman's responses are fantastic if you have a spare hour or two
It may flatter you to think so, but there's no "vindictiveness" going on here, it's merely a strong reaction to those who continue to treat the Leica forum as their personal chamberpot. Stop coming here to mock, ridicule and condescend and you won't get that reaction.
No vindictiveness - that's funny. Why do you attack preemptively? It's your life's mission - you follow him around and make tiny snide remarks. You are not the forum's deputy sheriff - though it really is kind of cute watching you believe that you are. Consider meditation, it can help you refocus that bad energy.
personal chamberpot Sorry Kevin, but are we talking about following the party line? He's entitled to his views the same as anyone else;love or leave them. Enjoying the banter, but then i'm wicked. Perhaps we should all agree about everything...would be a bit boring, don't you think?
Anyway, with a backward flip, i'm going to land on Z's shoulders..to cheer him up. Going to whisper in his left ear because the pink rabbit thing whispers in his righr ear. Thanks for the fun folks; got the flu ....latter.
You guys have a funny way of defining 'attack.' If you mean mentioning something someone said in thread "A" in thread "B" when it's relevant to the discussion, well, that's memory, not an attack. Here's a more recent 'memory' exercise for you, Brad: In the "David vs. Goliath" thread, the moderators rightly deleted all the insults, but they also deleted your initial posting, too, didn't they? Remember that one, the one where you displayed all the sarcasm, condescension and scorn a 13-year old girl could muster? That's what started it all.
Kevin, a shame you can't address what was posed to you without going into a childish, "Yeah, but you said..." or a "Yeah, but he started it..." type response. Speaking of sarcasm, try losing yours and this ferocious anger - you've been carrying this grudge for a long time. Though as I said before it really is kinda cute watching you in action...
Here's one you forgot, guys. The most widespread of all:<p> # How to turn the most sensible, the most benign and lighthearted threads into schoolyard fist fights
So cause and effect and memory don't count? That's weird. Because it's not a 'grudge' or 'anger' but a reaction to comments here on this forum over the last couple of years. On several occasions, I've tried to have reasonable discussions with you and Jeff and Grant about the topics you love to mock, like "lens characteristics" or "bokeh" only to have example pics held up for unsolicited critique and a childish level of ridicule. You've done it to others, too. How many times on this forum has someone said words to the effect of 'That's why you don't see me posting pics here?' Have you ever noticed? That kind of behavior discourages the participation of others, that's what bugs me. The condescending, sneering attitude keeps other away, and it makes the forum less interesting and less fun than it could be.
"# How to turn the most sensible, the most benign and lighthearted threads into schoolyard fist fights"-- Well, I can see you "Leica guys" have mastered something, anyway.....(back to the Canon, Medium Format and Collector Camera forums where reason and civility prevail...)
(back to the Canon, Medium Format and Collector Camera forums where reason and civility prevail...) G'wan, get outta here, fist fights keep your senses sharp and finely tuned....
Yeah....and if you ever show your face again we'll give you something to realize...geesh, Canon users.
Jeff (www.spirer.com) wrote, regarding "Jay":"... He didn't pick out people he disagreed with and constantly bring them up, even on threads they don't post on." Yes he did. Not by name, but by inference on this forum and on several others
if you can post good pix and be friendly at the same time, why not? Why post good pix and be so called a thug at other times? alot of people can be thugs too if they chooses to, but they didn't. So Im supposed to look at your pix and judge your personality and not by the way you talk to people around here? funny.
The trouble is when others take it upon themselves to be the forum deputy sheriff and control speech. I was taken to task above because my comment about the recent Leica- Canon size expose` thread was deemed sarcastic - yes, it was somewhat, and at my prerogative. And others felt the same, BTW. Yet the forum guardian's comment taking me to task on that was dripping with sarcasm. Kind of a double standard. He wants to be in control of what can be said here. Not his job, and his tracking people crosses the line and is a little spooky.
If the main interest of those who come here to scorn and mock Leica users was really, truly photography, as they claim, then the Street and Documentary forum wouldn't be the ghost town it is. I guess the sport of poking fun here is a bigger draw than posting pics there.
The Street and Documentary Forum has light traffic because a) it is tightly moderated, and b) it isn't in the pull-down for historical reasons. Also, a really good post gets a response "post this on the Leica Forum," which is a violation of photo.net guidelines against cross-posting and doesn't help that forum. However, the overall quality of posts is extremely high because of a) above. On several occasions, I've tried to have reasonable discussions with you and Jeff and Grant about the topics you love to mock, like "lens characteristics" or "bokeh" only to have example pics held up for unsolicited critique and a childish level of ridicule. Maybe you can give some examples of where Kevin has posted something useful on these threads that these misreferenced incidents have occurred on.
If you back someone - anyone, into a corner,... Ain't no corners in this forum and if this forum had walls they'd be round and most likely padded.
I agree. Everyone gets funky at times. I agree with Peter on the value of contributions. Even though it is everyone's business to post pictures or not, those who do post in w/nw threads and such, get more respect in my book, because their work provides a reference point (for me) and not a vaporware. Case in point is Grant (sorry for bringing you into this). He gets flak from members here for being brutally honest yet I never considered him offensive because his comments felt true every time. He posts myriad of shots here and you just know this guy is a photographer at heart. You've got to respect that no matter how tough he is on you. On the other hand some guys never post a shot yet they talk a great deal. Even though their talk is good it isn't enough for me to feel the respect to them (sorry guys). Take this as my humble opinion FWIW.
>>>>>if you can post good pix and be friendly at the same time, why not? Why post good pix and be so called a thug at other times? alot of people can be thugs too if they chooses to, but they didn't. So Im supposed to look at your pix and judge your personality and not by the way you talk to people around here? <<<<< I can't agree more with Travis.
edmo said: "Ain't no corners in this forum and if this forum had walls they'd be round and most likely padded." How right you are.
Also, a really good post gets a response "post this on the Leica Forum It?s where the main action is Jeff. Anyway, what's all this rule thing about? Folks don't really like rules, boring things. if you think im going to that bed It's not all about signing autographs, Grant. Sacrifice it for the fans.
Bob Marley, right?<p> "The road of life is rocky<br> And you may stumble, too.<br> So while you talk about me,<br> Someone else is judging you . . ."<p> I think he also said it's foolish dog that barks at a flying bird.
When you point your finger cos your plan fell through You got three more fingers pointing back at you - Dire Straits
"Bring me my pistol and three round balls, gonna shoot anybody I don't like at all..." hot tuna: true religion