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A Couple of Videos on the Z7 and System


ShunCheung

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Lensvid has an interview with Dirk Jasper, who is a product manager with Nikon Europe, at Photokina 2018, which just ended last week:

 

 

Z7 review video by Darryl Carey

 

 

I should point out once again that the "tripod mount" on the FTZ adapter is necessary because there is where Nikon hides the little motor which drives the mechanical aperture diaphragm control on legacy F-mount lenses, before E lenses and AF-P lenses.

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The D850 can do 9fps only in crop mode? That's news to me (no mention of it in the D850 manual) but that's what the Product Manager said in the interview.

 

Omitting the mirror and prism from a DSLR to create a mirrorless camera necessarily reduces the size of the camera body - why everyone wants to reduce it beyond that at the expense of omitting features (like the 2nd card slot) and with an impact on handling I fail to understand especially when many of the lenses are going to be large and some even quite heavy. The weight difference between an FX DSL and mirrorless is some 300g (give or take) - so making the mirrorless body large enough to accommodate two card slots and not have the little finger hang off the bottom may increase the weight by 100g - really such a big deal? Sony has set the "standard" and now everyone else has to follow?

 

On how to make a camera like the Z7 faster I believe only a part answer was given - the Sony A9 clearly shows what's needed besides a faster processor and good heat management - a different kind of sensor architecture.

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The D850 can shoot 9 fps only with the larger EN-EL18 family battery from the D4/D5, but still using the entire FX frame. Otherwise it is 7 fps with the EN-EL15 battery.

 

The D5 can capture 12 fps. The Sony A9 can capture 20 fps, but only with lossy compressed, 12-bit RAW. Neither one is 46MP or anything close to that. The Z7 is designed to be a high-pixel-density camera, not a high-frame-rate camera.

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The A9 is 24MP and can do 20fps - in my book that is about the same amount of data as the Z7/D850 have to transfer in the same time interval at 9fps and 45.7MP (which at least for the Z7 is also only 12-bit; not sure the same restriction applies to the D850)

 

I wonder why not one mirrorless camera is available with a built-in grip (a la D5) - the camera could be substantially smaller and would certainly benefit from the larger battery capacity. And would have space for two XQD card slots.

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I wonder why not one mirrorless camera is available with a built-in grip (a la D5) - the camera could be substantially smaller and would certainly benefit from the larger battery capacity. And would have space for two XQD card slots.

What you are describing is a future sports mirrorless camera from Canon or Nikon; i.e. a successor to the D3, D4, and D5 or Canon 1Dx series. I don’t think that technology is available yet. I could be wrong, of course, but I expect a D6 DSLR by January 2020 for the Tokyo Olympics before Nikon switching to mirrorless for their flagship sports cameras further down the road.

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before Nikon switching to mirrorless for their flagship sports cameras further down the road.

I shot a lot of soccer, maybe 100k or more pics, so I maybe I have some experience, its hard enough to find the right point for the click, even with optical finder, and much harder with EVF, for sure they becöme faster and faster, but they will never be real time.

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But I suspect human reaction time* is going to be the 'issue'. Humans have to predict when eg the tennis ball and racket will meet in a serve, or the penalty kicker kicks the ball, if you press the shutter when you see it happen, the shot will contain no ball.

 

EVF 'lag' is how long now? Kinda WYSIWYG + 10ms...:)

 

The usual test is to drop a ball from 2m and the shooter press the shutter when he sees (in the VF) it pass the 1m line on the way down. Take an average of 10 shots.

 

Repeat with an EVF DSLR. How much further has the ball dropped?

 

To capture the ball as it passes the 1m line with either camera, you have to predict the future.

 

To capture the ball as it passes the 1m line with an EVF fitted camera, you just have to predict a bit further into the future....;)

 

_____

 

* and shutter lag. It would be interesting if in a mechanical shutterless camera the actual recording time lag is reduced. No mechanics, no wasted time.

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some shoot falling balls and some shoot action

 

- But none have a zero reaction time.

 

It's all about anticipation and knowing the sport or subject. Waiting until the shot looks right in the viewfinder gets you nowhere.

And I'd argue that 'machine gunning' the camera at X fps doesn't get you very far either!

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Z7/D850 have to transfer in the same time interval at 9fps and 45.7MP (which at least for the Z7 is also only 12-bit; not sure the same restriction applies to the D850)

 

There is no such restriction with the D850; you can shoot 14 bit at 9fps but the buffer is smaller than for 12-bit files so it makes sense to drop to 12 if you are shooting at mid to high ISO.

 

I wonder why not one mirrorless camera is available with a built-in grip (a la D5) - the camera could be substantially smaller and would certainly benefit from the larger battery capacity. And would have space for two XQD card slots.

 

Well, most people buy mirrorless cameras to get smaller size and lower weight than DSLR. I know there are other reasons and dissenting opinions but for most people that buy mirrorless do so to get a smaller/lighter camera. For tele work DSLRs are excellent and their size and shape is a good fit for those big teles. The main drawback is the loud noise if you shoot at high fps a lot, and that can be avoided with an A9, but then you may lose in the ability to focus as well in low light action situations (indoor sports) as for example a D5 can, and in flickering lights you can get more sharply defined banding in the images because of the electronic shutter. LED panels etc. are common these days. For outdoor work the A9's pixel density may be found limiting (compared to D850/D500). So while a great camera no doubt, it is not a do-all and be-all. And yes, it is a small camera. I doubt they will make a separate larger model. Nikon and Canon might, but will they really make a large mostly empty box? I guess it could be jammed with electronics for improved processing etc.

 

I think for sure there will be a D6 DSLR. Nikon made the Z6 and Z7 because that is the part of the mirrorless market that they perceive as the most successful (in terms of popularity, growth, profit). I know there are specialist applications which demand an A9 like camera but I suspect Nikon aren't ready to compete in that segment yet, and I suspect the sales volumes for such expensive cameras are small in the end.

Edited by ilkka_nissila
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I shoot equestrian sports, and anyone who ever has tried, knows they're unpredictable beasts. The dropping balls reference was a simple way of quantifying the relative delay in reaction time/shutter delay/EVF lag in a repeatable fashion, not my day job.

 

There's no relatively easy timing like a tennis serve where you know after the player has thrown up the ball or the golfer has started their swing that a pretty set time later the impact will happen. A soccer penalty kicker is a bit more fun as his job is to maybe make the goalie dive too soon or too late by deliberately faking the moment. Getting the foot-ball impact for that is going to be tricky.

 

Horses do the same, so if you want the required jump shot of the front feet tucked up and the back feet a few inches off the ground, prediction is tricky. Some of them pause and some jump too soon....... and a few crash into the fence.

 

Equally as RJ said, machine-gunning doesn't always help either, but having a camera that shoots single frame is unlikely to make you many sales where-as 'close' to perfect either before and/or after the 'ideal shot' may well do so.

 

I suspect there's a fairly simple mathematical model relating to object speed and frames per second and distance traveled between frames versus human reaction/shutter lag time. Anyone who's come across Eadweard Muybridge (Eadweard Muybridge - Wikipedia) will realize what he had to do to get the ONE frame of trotting horse's feet showing that their feet are indeed momentarily all off the ground together. It takes a modern camera with atleast 8fps to guarantee that shot. He did it with 12 plate cameras and string triggers.....!

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The "keep capturing to an internal buffer using an electronic shutter and write out the last second's worth when the finger is taken off the shutter release" strategy would help me, if AF worked with it and the rolling shutter weren't too bad. I had a pretty good hit rate of capturing tennis balls in contact with racquets, but in tiddlywinks, someone rests on the wink (dime-sized plastic disk) then slides back very slowly, and at some point - not necessarily under their control - the wink shoots out sideways, fast. I try not to shoot people lining up too much, because i don't want to distract them, but I've tried the "capture the wink in flight" shot. It's almost impossible, especially since the player normally moves the moment the wink is played; I'd need reaction times in the centisecond range. (On that note, how's the shutter lag on the Z7? Is the lack of mirror helping?) Sitting on constant capture up until the release point would help. I could do it with the D850's 30fps electronic shutter mode (or shoot video), but not in raw. The same applies to the "capture a bolt of lightning" shot.

 

I'm hoping the stacked sensor approach can help with frame rates, although I'm not quite clear how much has got stacked. 8K video cameras exist, so someone's managing to solve the read-out speed problem.

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I'll have one of...

 

The "keep capturing to an internal buffer using an electronic shutter and write out the last second's worth when the finger is taken off the shutter release" strategy would help me, if AF worked with it and the rolling shutter weren't too bad"

 

..these please!

 

It's been a nice feature on various P&S cams for ages, come on Nikon. Try harder!

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One thing I never quite understand is the obsession to make the mirrorless cameras small. I know that the Z7 is no D5, and I wouldn't expect a built-in grip and large EN-EL18 battery (not on a $3400 mirrorless camera), but I don't quite understand why the Z6 and Z7 cannot have a second SD memory card slot and electronic contacts at the bottom of the camera so that we can attach a full vertical grip with vertical controls. I suppose Sony mirrorless might have set the trend, but I find the Z7 a bit too small as the way it is.
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I suppose Sony mirrorless might have set the trend, but I find the Z7 a bit too small as the way it is.

On the Sony one can at least attach a fully functional vertical grip (contacts are in the battery compartment). Attaching that grip makes the combo a bit higher than a D810 - but if that grip was build-in instead of attached, I am certain the size of the combo could be made to match the D810 body height. This would allow for a larger battery, better stability and also good ergonomics no matter if the camera is held in landscape or portrait orientation. And there would be space for two XQD card slots. And all this would not have to cost as much as a D5 but add some $200 or $300 to the current cost.

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I'm hoping the stacked sensor approach can help with frame rates, although I'm not quite clear how much has got stacked. 8K video cameras exist, so someone's managing to solve the read-out speed problem.

 

Reading that much data (e.g. 8K) off a large sensor at high frame rate results in a lot of data which needs to be processed and that means the camera will consume a lot of electrical power and generate heat. I have no doubt it can be managed but not necessarily in a compact or inexpensive camera. Personally I kind of wish that manufacturers didn't obsess with huge amounts of data - my needs in photography do not require that, I'm quite happy capturing single shots and either getting or missing the shot. I occasionally use burst shooting but I could easily be without it, even in action photography. But I do like fast and accurate autofocus and good high ISO performance, so I end up with fast cameras (with high frame rates that I don't really use often).

 

One thing I never quite understand is the obsession to make the mirrorless cameras small.

 

It's what the customers prefer, apparently. Sony said in some major trade show interview that when they asked their mirrorless E mount camera buyers why they chose that camera, the answer that they got was always that it was smaller and lighter (than competitors' offerings). (I don't remember the exact words used, probably other reasons were given also and it may have been lost in translation, but the main reason the customers gave was the small size and light weight). So that's what they aim for, in all their mirrorless cameras. They believe they sell because of the small size and light weight. Nikon and Canon's latest mirrorless full frame cameras are a bit larger than Sony's but they too see mirrorless technology as a way to make the camera smaller and lighter. I think it is likely correct to assume that most customers prefer the cameras that way but there is a small subset of photographers who actually prefer larger cameras but possibly it is that Nikon and Canon see that the large camera people are satisfied with their DSLR offerings and the small camera people want small and light cameras, which is what they're targeting with mirrorless.

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I wonder if the argument that the customer wants a smaller and lighter camera wasn't regurgitation of what the manufacturers were promising with mirrorless - smaller and lighter cameras. They also promises cheaper - which for all I can see hasn't been happening yet. Two out of three ain't bad I suppose :p

 

I would also answer such a question in the affirmative - to a point. While a D3xxx or D5xxx is fine when used with the lenses is is mostly sold with, a D7x00 body is already too small to be held with larger and heavier lenses that many customers will use on them. I felt compelled to add the battery grip to the D7100/D7200 when using the AF-S 80-400 (which didn't help any with the rather cramped space between the tripod collar and the grip to get my fingers in between).

 

I am fine with a small and light lens on the A7-style mirrorless but a even a modestly size and weight 70-200/4 has me wishing for more (solved by adding the vertical grip).

Edited by Dieter Schaefer
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The diagram near the top right of this page shows how the Nikon AI aperture follower tab and its pulley system works to get the camera to meter with AI/AI-S lenses:

Nikon FE - Its Body and Basic Operation Part I

 

Apparently Nikon still has that mechanical system inside the D5, D850, D810, D500, D7200, etc. Putting that system inside the Z system cameras or the adapter is pretty much out of the question. It would also be difficult to add an AF motor inside the FTZ adapter to AF with pre-AF-S (AF-I) lenses.

 

But maybe some third-party will produce such adapter some day. Whether it is practical to use one is another topic.

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I'd have thought aperture priority and manual should have been an option on the mirrorless bodies with stop-down metering (though I think that for dSLRs too, especially the ones with independent aperture control). If the adaptor didn't have an aperture lever, this is what you'd get, after all. And I still have my pet "shouldn't AI-S be linear enough to work?" rant - which could also be solved by having sufficiently precise aperture lever control and an open loop metering system, but currently nothing digital can control the aperture setting from the camera, which rules out P and S (and makes A and M less convenient).
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The diagram near the top right of this page shows how the Nikon AI aperture follower tab and its pulley system works to get the camera to meter with AI/AI-S lenses:

Nikon FE - Its Body and Basic Operation Part I

 

Interesting link, Shun - once more, detailed information on that site educates me. On this occasion, I'm interested to see the description of the different offsets between the AI ridge and the actual aperture seen on f/1.4 and f/1.2 lenses, compared with f/1.8 and below - something that's been referenced on sites that discuss AI conversions. I'd love to know the official reason for it (I'm assuming the meter is expected to have an offset at very wide apertures, either because of the finder screen behaviour or because of vignetting or something).

 

I really hope the modern implementation of the aperture coupling ring uses fewer components (and less string), but that may be optimistic. It has to be reasonably weatherproof, which can't simplify things.

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Having recently bought a Sony a6000 and also acquired a Nex6 (supposedly 'broken' and sold dirt cheap), I'm a convert to tiny mirrorless bodies.

 

Leaving aside the menu-digging controls, I find the handling to be quite convenient. OK, so when you fit any decent lens it becomes a lens-with-camera-attached, but a slight shift of mindset makes that totally acceptable.

 

What's probably needed is for makers and designers to also get their heads around that concept, and to fit a tripod socket on any lens over a couple of inches or so long and weighing more than a few ounces.

 

Even a metal-barreled Leica-fit lens with a fast aperture makes the combination lens-heavy. So to my mind it's not really about size, but more about where the centre-of-gravity of the combo sits. Stupid add on battery grips that double the size and weight of the camera I can live without thanks.

 

The Sony seems to deliver more than enough shots from a quite puny 1050mAH battery, exceeding what I expect to get if I use the D7200 in permanent Live View mode. Meaning I can shoot all day long out of a tiny and lightweight camera case carrying the camera and a couple of spare batteries. In fact I had trouble finding a case the right size, without the camera rattling loosely around in it.

 

In short: No, a mirrorless camera isn't the same hand-filling size as a DSLR, and thankfully it isn't the same weight either. But does anyone want an artificially inflated body size that's mainly air? Not me, for one.

 

Incidentally, the 'broken' Nex6 was fixed with a firmware update. Paint me happy!

I've fitted it with a Jupiter 8 lens and it delivers really nice pictures in unbelievably low light. :)

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Doesn't show how to use it with non CPU lenses.

Look again, the last line in the table. A and M mode only. Non-Ai lenses should not be mounted (not sure why not). Like with most higher-end DSLRs, there's a non-CPU lens menu that you can enter the lens information into (so it appears in the EXIF (obviously not the set aperture though)).

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