A Challenge to the Forum

Hi Everyone,

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A few posts back there was a guy announced he had just bought his first LF package and as near as I can figure this outfit cost close to $4K. When I read this it struck me that it was a lot of money to enter a format that someone may not have had any experience and that it gave the impression that LF photography is one for the well off.

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It also struck me that at a time when products for large format photography are being discontinued by major manufacturers we as a group have an obligation to encourage people to at least try the field. If the impression is that it costs thousands of dollars to enter LF than we can only expect the number of LF photographers to either diminish or remain relatively the same. In other words we as a buying group will become weaker and the range of products available to us will continue shrink as manufacturers find more profitable markets.

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So my challenge to the forum is this:

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Propose a beginners complete LF package that can be purchased for under $900.

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Why $900, for the same reason things cost $19.99. Psychologically it means a lot to be under $1000. If we get a good set of responses maybe it can be made part of the site as a buying guide.

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Good Luck and Thanks

If you call Calumet you can get a nice 4x5 camera with lens, holders

& dark cloth for well under your price limit.

Kevin:

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Challenge taken.

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I just bought a lightly used Graflex Super Speed Graphic with a very

good coated German lens for $750 Cdn, including case and film

holders. A very good used Manfrotto tripod can easily be had for less

than 150 US so there is a first rate 4x5 outfit for less than 600 US.

<p>

With all due respect, a new Ebony, Sinar or Gandolfi is a waste for a

newcomer. Learning how to load film, focus, then learn the movements

can all be done on a used good camera. Also, a selection of lenses

other than a single 135 mm or 210 mm or so is a needless distraction.

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Spend a few hundred bucks on some outdated film, a daylight

processing box and a light meter and then "Watch out Minor White/

John Sexton/ Richard Avedon/or even Robert Mapplethorpe".

<p>

If I were offering it for sale, I have a fully functional Iston wood

field camera with a Wollensak barely coated lens and I would offer it

for $300 US, with 2 holders. It works just fine. But of cours, I

would not offer anything for sale on this site.

<p>

Cheers

Heaps and heaps of ways to do it. One way - a decent condition

Graphic 4x5 can be had for $300 or so (a used Meridian for about

$500, maybe even a used Tech III). A used Fuji 150 mm can be had for

aboput $200 - 300. A 100mm wide field Ektar for about $200. A set of

6 film holders (in 4x5, not too expensive even new). A Toyo loupe

about $40. A cheap light meter like a Weston or even a used Gossen,

less than $100. A tripod (pick up a wooden Bromwell for about $150 or

troll eBay for cheaper and older wood tripods).

<p>

Even 8x10 can be managed on this kind of budget. I started with a

Kodak 2D (paid about $300), a triple convertible Gundlach

rectigraphic (about $150), six used film holders (about $100). You

can even cough up for more recent glass like a Protar series or a

Symmar convertible.

<p>

It can be done and with less quality impacts than in some other

formats. My Gundlach rectigraphic gave me pictures that look as sharp

in contact prints as more modern glass. Cheers, DJ.

Kevin, at that price you're looking at used equipment, and there are

steady offerings on both e-bay and the photo.net classifieds. I'm

sure there are quality used kits available at some of the dealers as

well. As to specifics, others have mentioned some popular timeless

offerings that would serve a beginner as well as a higher priced kit.

I'm currently looking for a lower priced kit myself ( wooden field,

90-135 lens ) so I'll let you know how I make out. Regards,

Mike

I couldn't agree with you more here, Kevin....as a pro who uses LF

gear, I'm always dumbfounded at some of the setups people write about

getting started with....if they could see the kind of equipment and

age of it that we use in our studio, and even at other places I've

worked in as an assistant.....I recently upgraded my 4x5 stuff at

home, when Calumet started discounting the 45NX....you can get one new

for $750 now....or the cheaper model for a hundred or so less. Or any

number of older Toyos and Omegas on the market used.....that's what we

use here, a newer Toyo GII model, and an absolutely ancient Omega D

that just refuses to die!

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My bid on a new setup would be a beginner Cambo/Calumet kit or the

Toyo entry level monorail. Any decent used monorail as well, but try

to price accesories like lensboards, bag bellows etc. before taking

the plunge into the more expensive brands....all the little things can

really add up after awhile. Probably the best place to start would be

in learning to load a holder first, then think about buying a

camera.....

Dear Kevin;

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You raise some interesting thoughts. As for my own experience, I

have had a view camera for about 10 years, but it was resting

comfortably on a shelf in my basement. When I originally got the

camera, I had gone out and added all those accessories I could buy

new and some I found in the camera store in their used area. I found

it difficult to build my system. I shot some images, but never

delved deeply into LF at that time. Most of my work was medium

format or 6x17 panoramic (I guess that is 'kinda' shooting large

forat).

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Last year, a friend induced me to look at Ebay and start tracking all

of the camera products being offered. I ended up buying a high end

35mm digital which re-awakened a passion for photography. Not just

digital, but also causing me to shoot more film in my medium,

panoramic, but especially large format cameras. Then I put two and

two together and looked at the large format listings. All of a

sudden, I am bidding on and winning auctions to buy those bits and

pieces of equipment for my large format camera that I previously

could not afford or maybe couldn't find. I have even bought stereo

cameras via Ebay-when was the last time you thought about taking

those kind of images. In a way, I think Ebay may be a tremendous

asset to LF. Think of all those people who have had cameras they

wanted to sell, but the prices offered when they went to re-sellers

was not enough so they decided to just keep them in the box. Ebay

gives them an outlet and the market determines the price which

advantages both buyer and seller. I think it is easier and more

convenient than scouring the used departments or waiting for ads in

magazines that maybe were placed months ago. Put on top of this,

forums like we are in where people from all over the country are

giving advice, asking questions and mutually assisting each other. I

felt like I was alone a decade ago and did not now where to turn for

answers other than my local camera store-now I find friends and

others who genuinely want to help me no matter how simple my needs.

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Perhaps LF is being eclipsed in the commercial market-that can be a

whole discussion by itself. Digital is certainly digging into the

sales of film products and that trend is continuing. However, for

people with a passion for taking pictures and for those enjoying the

mystery and art of photography, there may be benefits in this

revolution of technology. True, products and companies are

disappearing at an unfortunately too quick rate, but the ranks may be

strong as ever.

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Thank you for helping me to think about these issues.

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Regards,

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John

Kevin,

As you have probably gathered by now prices of LF or any

photographic gear for that matter is not a reliable indicator. It all

depends on what the buyer is prepared to pay, what type of gear they

are prepared to consider (some people have strange and strong

preconceptions) and whether they know where to look. I picked up a

good Horseman LS at a liquidation sale for just over $100, a

Schneider 150mm / 265mm lens on eBay for $150 and a set of five film

backs for less than $30 from the same auction site. I am sure that

others have also bucked the shop prices and acquired decent LF gear

at knock down prices.

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Clive

DK, I agree. LF equipment just doesn't wear out too often. I have

been using a mix of old and new equipment for nearly 40 years. It's

just tools and I use whatever I have or can afford.

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Don't knock those who buy new and get up. They are the suppliers of

the good, barely used, equipment that ebay is filled with. Those of

us who actually use the stuff need these people to take the edge off

of the new prices for us.

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But to the point of the thread, I always recommend that beginers get

a Graphic or Busch press camera and use it for awhile before going to

a view camera. You can get this outfit: camera with 135mm lens, 90mm

angulon, some used holders, and a meter = $500 or less which is about

the price of that new digital snapshot camera that will be obsolete

in three years. When they do get ready for the view camera, I

recommend a Graphic view to start. It's cheap, sturdy, and small and

they can use their existing lenses. When it is time to step up to

the "big time" cameras you can get every penny back from your

investment in these old cameras. Try getting a 100% return from that

$4K wizzband deluxe outfit! Meanwhile, you have just given yourself

thousands of dollars of education. wf

>> Don't knock those who buy new and get up. <<

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Sorry, I meant to say:

Don't knock those who buy new and then get out of LF.

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wf

It could have been me you were referring to, since I mentioned

the cash outlay involved in my move up to LF, in comparing the

relative start-up costs between 35/MF, LF, and Digital gear. It was

closer to 5 grand, and while I would be the first one to agree that

that is a lot of money, it's nowhere near top of the scale for LF. I

certaily agree that you can get into LF for a lot less, but my

situation was and is different. I'm new to LF, but don't consider

myself a biginner.

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Even if you were not referring to me I still think you have to

take this on an individual basis. I totally agree that folks should

know that you can get into LF for a lot less than I did. It would not

be a good idea to spend 5 grand on a 'tryout', but in my case I was

past that.

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I've done this most of my adult life, fell in love w/the idea of

doing the alternative processes, and contact printing w/POP paper.

After thirty years of Portrait/People/Street scene work, this is a

logical growth step for me and I can use my LF gear for my business

and personal work.

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I audited this forum for a year and researched the LF equipment I

wanted and where I could get it at the lowest price. I could have

easily ended up getting a LF outfit for a lot less than I did.

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I had always wanted a Toyo 810MII, and one hit the market brand

new, for about $1500.00 less than what the dealers were willing to

sell it to me for at the exact same time I had decided to make the

move.

The camera was for sale for about the same price as a used one

and it was get it now or pass. One of my better decisions 'cause I

love this camera. This camera will be with me for life.

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I didn't start out with the mind set, 'I think I'll blow 5 grand

on a LF outfit'. The camera was $3300, I got a Docter Optics 360mm

F6.7 Tessar for $737.00 from Mr Cad, and a Wollensak Velostigmat 300mm

F4.5 SF for $285.00. I didn't 'splurge' moneywise and everything was

'cut to the bone', and after getting some invaluable feedback about

the Toyo 810MII from Dave Anton, I got the camera while the 'getting

was good'.

<p>

You can easily get into LF for less than $1000.00 if you're

willing to wait, and pick your spots, and I mentioned my LF budget in

the context of its comparison to digital gear.

Although I get where you're coming from I have to disagree somewhat.

My first and current LF outfit is an Ebony with a few (new) schneider

lenses and 10 new Toyo film holders. This outfit cost me a small

fortune!! BUT I knew that I wanted a set up that I could use and

never have to change/upgrade. I appreciate that there are many fine

photographers using much cheaper equipment and still turning out

fabulous work. But I could not afford to buy an outfit only to find

that I needed/wanted to upgrade it after a short time. Trade-in

values here in the UK are laughable!! (And not just for LF kit). I

spent a great deal of time and effort researching my options (and

without the benefit of the vast pool of knowledge on this forum!!)

before I bought my camera. But I agree that a first timer to

photography would be better off trying a different format than LF at

any price! However, the step to LF is a daunting enough prospect for

even the most seasoned photographer and I wonder how many of this

type of user would spend a few grand on an outfit if they were not

real sure that it was the format for them.

As for LF being a format for the well-off, well it is!! You either

have to be wealthy or prepared to divert as much of your hard earned

cash as you can manage to pursue your passion. Have you seen the

price of gear? Film? Especially if you want to buy new!

As for encouraging potential LF users. IMHO anyone considering moving

to LF would probably be au fait with smaller formats and would be

aware of the disciplined and expensive nature of LF photography. Its

not like someone who is new to 35mm, starting out with a basic camera

to see if he/she gets on with the hobby. Here in the UK you would be

hard pushed to find a good condition used outfit for less than £600

(not sure what $1000 converts into!!). Such an outfit would be

described at best as a "user". I personally would consider it a waste

of money following this route.

When I moved to LF I KNEW that it was the format for me! At first I

struggled with tilts etc, but the fact that I had so much money tied

up in my gear, IT WAS GOING TO WORK!!

Finally, my advice to potential users of LF would be this: If you are

serious then buy the best you can afford, but be aware that as a

format it will be mighty expensive in all departments!! But despite

these negative vibes, LF is still the most addictive and pleasurable

type of photography!! Regards Paul

Kevin ...

I'm impressed with the awesome amount of money that some posters on

this forum have to spend on LF photo gear. I take my hat off to them.

As a working-class stiff with a family to feed, I have to scrimp and

save to buy, say, one lens. It's possible to get workable gear at

bargain prices. About two years ago, I purchased a used Calumet 8x10

C1 and an old 300mm lens, both for under $800.

For any newcomer there is a balancing act when it comes to starting

out in large format. Cost vs reliability. By reliability I am

refering to a used outfit being in good enough shape to eliminate

frustrating variables. Is the bellows light proof, is there

excessive play in the standards on the rail, does it lock down the

standards properly, what condition is the lens, the shutter, the film

back etc. New you have the added expense but at least you know

everything is new and works properly and is (supposedly) in alignment

and calibrated. As someone who started out with used cameras

(calumet 400c and Speed Graphic) I would have saved myself a lot of

time buying new. I agree with Dan Smith about the the Calumet pkg.

its new relatively robust for the price and the Caltar 150mm or 200mm

lens are an excellent lens for the price with Calumet support and

accesories available.

I agree with Paul, but I also think one has to balance the available

budget with the available equipment. As an adult who has no children

I was able to buy the best I could possibly afford, and I think this

was a matter of choice, like someone said "there is nothing like the

right tool for the job". IMO I always try to buy the best that I can

afford, on the long run I end up saving more than if I bought a

cheaper article which I would have to replace, trade in later for

something better. There is nothing wrong with spending $4000 in an

outfit that will last a life time, over the years the price will seem

negligible. On the other hand if I can get an 8x10 Deardoff in mint

condition for $500 I am sure as hell not going to pass on the

opportunity. My initial LF purchase was of the expensive kind, Linhof

TK 45, but as I mentioned before, this camera still looks and works

like it was new...minus some fading numbers from use. :-))

I certainly think that averaged over the 12 years I have owed this

camera, the price was worth it. Having said that, I could not pass

the offer of a speed graphic in mint condition with case and bulb

flash :-)) for 350 dollars...I had great fun with this camera, even

taking hand held fotos on 4x5...what a great experience! But in the

end, getting the series VI filters, etc became a hassle and decided

to sell it to a beguinner for the same price who has had a lot of fun

and learning experiences with the camera. in the end it all comes to

a matter of available funds and commitment to the format, and

yes....some status recognition..:-)))

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OTH I have to say that when I chose an 8x10 camera, I could not see

myself paying $6000 to $9000 for an Ebony, heck for that I can buy a

Canham 12x20 and a couple of lenses with film holders. So I went with

the Gandolfi, I do beleive that there comes a time when the "best" is

not necesarily the best at those prices.

I did exactly what Paul Owen did, for the same reasons. I bought an

Ebony, two new lenses (1 R, 1 S), and a QuickLoad holder. I knew that

I wanted to commit to LF, and didn't want to go through "upgrade"

cycles (which would cost more, in the long run). I researched to

choose equipment that I would buy once and never find "lacking". Cost

was not my primary issue - I waited to save the money I needed.

<p>

If you are unsure of your commitment, or can't afford to buy your

"final" gear, then finding bargains is a worthy idea.

<p>

If you really don't know if LF is suitable, rent the gear.

Don't get me wrong with my comment...I wasn't aiming it at anyone or

anything.....it's just that to me, anyways, a view camera is a pretty

simple machine....when you're starting out there is simply no need for

the kind of controls and features that you get on some of the high-end

cameras.....it reminds me of an assistant we had once who couldn't do

scheimpflug on our toyo....he insisted that we had to have a

Sinar....if you can't do it visually, then having a scheimpflug scale

& indicator is no big help either....I guess my point is this: get the

best deal you can, but beware of really old beaters if you want to

learn & enjoy it. There's nothing more frustrating than a camera that

won't lock down, or chasing mysterious pinholes in a worn-out

bellows....I agree that moving into LF can be a real mystery,

especially if there's nobody around you to help....it just seems like

a disservice (sp??) to say you have to have a $$$$$ camera or else you

can't do large format....same goes for lighting too...I don't know how

many threads there've been here and on other forums as well, that all

say you need to use broncolors or elinchroms, kinflos and

hosemasters.....I dunno, could just be me....I work in a place with

zero in the way of equipment budgets....we use old cameras & when they

break down, keep using them....and yet they work just fine, I see our

stuff printed in 4 color, murals made, going on PR releases....shot on

what some people call budget cameras and pieces of junk.....

<p>

Opinions expressed in this message may not represent the policy of my

agency

Regardless of format, Photography for those who are serious

about it, is not cheap. I think we're mixing up issues, you get what

you get, with what you got, but if you're well off and buying toys

that you use for a while and then get rid of at a considerable loss

when you become bored, that is something else.

<p>

I buy cameras and camera gear for life. The bottom line

regarding my selection of gear is will it give me trouble free

operation after going off warranty. I try to get things where the

initial outlay is the only 'big ticket' payment I have to make outside

of regular maintenence and since I take care of my stuff, I rarely

have to take my stuff to the shop.

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The only equipment I've ever gotten rid of were my Rolleis 'cause

they were in the shop too much. I made the switch to Mamiya and

stopped the financial drain. There is not much to go wrong with LF,

and I have some definite goals to attain w/LF(contact printing), so LF

is a cinch for me.

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Regardless of format, the cost is going to add up if you're

serious about Photography even if you're not doing it as a business.

There's no getting around the fact that it is expensive even as a

serious hobby.

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I think Leica is dynamite, but I wouldn't buy a leica 'cause I

don't think there'll be a $1000.00 difference in the shot I take with

a Leica versus the shot I take with the 35mm cameras I've got. I read

up on Sinar cameras, they seem to be arguably the ultimate to some

folks, I'm not about to pay $10,000 for one, even if I had the money.

<p>

I'll be the first one to suggest Robert White, Mr. Cad, and e-bay

as a way to save money, even if you have it, because that's the way to

be. We all know that Photography involves a lot of impulse buying

only the rich folks can afford to be silly.

<p>

There are several issues at work here. Nobody is going to do any

serious work with a 'point and shoot', so there is a bottom line and

dollar amount that must be spent to do good work, but the stands and

strobes and filters and so forth in addition to the camera system are

going to add up.

<p>

No matter what you plan on spending on Photography, you're going

to probably end up spending a lot more. That's an entirely different

proposition than being a 'gearhead', which I define as being someone

who buys more gear than they really need, essentially because they

love to buy gear.

1x standard house brick $0.02

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1x hacksaw ~ $5.00

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1x visit to camera shop at 2:30AM - free

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Spend the remaining $894.98 on film.

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(only kidding)

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More practically, if you live in or near a large city the $900 could

be spent over a long period by renting a decent LF outfit only for

those weekends when you're going to actually go out and use it. You

can usually rent gear from Friday lunchtime through to monday morning

for the price of a single day's hire. Has the added advantage that if

you ever get enough to buy your own rig, you'll be a lot more

familiar with the equipment and know what you want.

This is a good discussion but it has evolved into two parts.

<p>

If you can afford the "good stuff" by all means do it. I shoot 4x10 a

lot. I use a homemade camera exclusively for 4x10 even though I have

a 4 x10 Canham in the closet. I use what I'm comfortable with. I just

do not like to use the Canham although I know it is a fine camera ---

for someone :)

<p>

But the original challenge was to put together a good outfit for

little money. I think this is a really good exercise to put things

into perspective. Good photography is the desired result and that can

be accomplished just as well with an economy outfit as with a luxury

outfit. wf

Kevin,

<p>

I am African and we have a saying in Swahili that goes like "He/She

who chooses a hoe he is not a farmer" the same applies for first

timers like me in LF. A year ago I bought a miniature (2X3)Speed

Graphic for $250 + D.C tax at a flea market that comprised of a 105mm

Schneider Xenar, a 101mm Ektar and a 65mm Wollesak Raptar all in mint

condition. The seller even threw in 6 or 8 holders and a nice case. I

have since been learning the craft, I feel I can pretty much use a LF

camera in the most effective and efficient manner relative to the $$

I will commit. Let's not forget that, it is the eye and not the

equipment that makes a good photographer although I will admit that a

good equipment helps too.

<p>

Adrian

Probably something else that I'd add...without going off on a tangent

like I did before (sorry, must be in a bad mood today...)...is to you

know, get a usable camera, but if you want to spend money (and can),

get the best lens you can find.....that's all a view camera is, a box

that you can put a lens on and stick a holder in.....

<p>

I'd also add, in regards to getting a good used high-end LF camera,

hey---that's great for some people--but price out all the accesories

you think you'll ever want before you buy the camera....lensboards,

extension rails, short rails, bag bellows, extension bellows, fresnel

gg attachments, viewing hoods, right angle finders, uh....let's see?

compendium shades, roll film holders, etc. The cost & availability of

some of that stuff can be surprising and depends alot on your location

as well. Like I was saying...it's often the little things that add up

the most.....I just went the opposite way, having worked with and

around bare bones stuff my whole working life, I went with a basic

camera and a couple of decent lenses. I figured all the fancy stuff

would just be lost on me anyways....

<p>

Opinions expressed in this message may not represent the policy of my

agency

HEY STUART... I am a bricklayer by trade, and I would like to know

where you are getting your standard house bricks for 2 cents. The

last bricks I ordered were 38 cents each plus sales tax!!! ;0D

Kevin,

<p>

Although I agree with some of the content in this discussion I

cannot fully agree that a quality LF camera is not the way to go for

a relative beginner. As for myself I was able to start on a Calumet

C400 but quickly matured to a nice Ebony SV45U. Does my photographic

skills warrant such an expensive camera? Would I not be able to make

good photographs with a less expensive model? Of course the answers

are I do not NEED an Ebony and yes I could probably accomplish the

same results I presently get with a Crown Graphic. So why buy an

Ebony?

<p>

Well just as when many folks invest in a new vehicle. You know what

you are buying and what the car is capble of. You could have bought

used but you might of had to settle for a different smaller or

perhaps large car. You were not able to buy the exact model used

that you wanted at the time you desired and wished to make the

purchase.

<p>

More importantly you now have an investment in a new LF camera that

has a specific dollar value. As long as you take care of your

investment you can probably sell your expensive new camera and

obtain a good portion of your money back. So this is really not such

a big risk of "cash outlay" as some may think, especially if you are

a relative beginner. You now have a known product and if you did

your homework it will have a very good resale value. (should you

change your mind about LF photography)

<p>

My vote goes for buying what best suits you budget and meets all

your perceived needs. This will be different for each person, but I

have learned my lesson through woodworking, "Always buy the best

tools you can afford and only feel the pain once in your pocketbook.

You will then always enjoy using these tools well into the future,

making the job easier and more pleasurable."

<p>

Regards,

Well stated, Adrian. We have a saying in the US: "That's it in a

nutshell!"

<p>

>>>>Adrian said: Let's not forget that, it is the eye and not the

equipment that makes a good photographer although I will admit that a

good equipment helps too.<<<<