600mm APO-Ronar vs 600mm APO-Germinar...but wait, there is more

Discussion in 'Large Format' started by light-zone, Dec 5, 2002.

  1. Hi all,

    I am in a precarious position with a person from whom I ordered a lens.

    Here was the origional deal, either:

    Zeiss 600mm APO-Germinar lens (barrel) new for Euro 215 or,

    Rodenstock 9/600mm APO- Ronar (also barrel) coated with linear f-stop
    scale for Euro 150.

    The lens is to be used on my 12X15" camera with a Packard shutter
    installed behind the lensboard. The seller is the same guy from whom I
    purchased my 12X15" camera, hence the overall good prices.

    I decided on the Apo-Germinar lens, and sent payment. Payment was
    received and I receive an email from the seller last night saying that
    he discovered a sort of "film" on the inside of the lens. Seeing as
    how the lens is new, he could not explain it. (He is also a reputable
    guy, so this is not an ebay bait and switch by any means)

    So here is where the deal stands, I could either take the lens I
    ordered in the less than perfect condition and try cleaning it myself,
    (which he indicated would be difficult due to the construction of the
    lens) or, take the Apo-Ronar instead and get the difference refunded.

    I could also ask for the Germinar lens with a few Euros knocked off
    the sale price to compensate for the cost of having it professionally
    clened, but this was not part of his "offer".

    Is anybody familiar with the construction of the Zeiss Apo-Germinar
    barrel lens? And would it be possible to tackle a job like that myself?

    How about practical experience with either one of these lenses? I've
    read the archives, and did find praise for both lenses, but a side by
    side comparison was not to be found.

    Your opinions would be appreciated.
  2. Hi William,

    as far as I can remenber, the design is the same. What does it mean: "film"? If it's in barrel mount, one can unsrew the front and back elements as one part. If the "film" is inside towards the f-stop, it can perhaps be removed. Ask the seller wether he would try this for you. Otherwise stick to the Apo-Ronar which will be good enough if in good condition. The dialyte-type is senible to mounting and centering, so don't try to unscrew the single lenses. Rodenstock glued them in the mounting in the version with lower tolerances (CL if i remember right). Docter Optics offerd a spacing-ring to give up the symmetry and optimize the lens for infinity.
  3. Hi William,

    although I don't have a barrel Apo-Germinar, I would suspect that taking the cells out of the barrel is the same as for a shuttered one, although with different thread sizes maybe - just unscrew them. If you need to go further in, you need special tools. I'll check tonight what kind of retaining ring my 300mm Apo-G. (with shutter) has. I do have data sheets from Docter on the Apo-Germinars, showing the lens cross section (but not the mechanical parts) and the MTF curves for 1:1. I can scan the 600mm if you're interested.

    I did a direct comparison of the 300mm Apo-Germinar and Apo-Ronars years ago - resolution charts on TMAX 100, so the usual caveats for this kind of test apply. There was no difference between them.

    In your case, however,the 600mm Apo-Germinar uses 6 lenses and the Apo-Ronar is a 4-lens objective. That might affect performance (or it might not), but it will most probably affect weight. Both are single coated, I guess. I use an old 600mm Apo-Ronar myself for 8x10 (in a Compound no.5) and its already the heaviest lens I own. It performs quite well, but I only do contacts with 8x10 anyway.
  4. Thomas: What he was referring to was a "Schleier" on one of the inside elements.

    He is experienced with LF lenses, and if it were just a matter of unscrewing the lens to clean the elements, he would have certainly offered to do so. He certainly lead me to believe that the cleaning in this case had to be done by a pro. I then called my lens/shutter man to ask about a price to clean the lens. Of course he wanted to see it first before talking price.

    It sounds to me like the difference, if any at all (in terms of performance) are minimal.
    I guess the best bet would be to go with the Apo-Ronar. BTW, according to the seller, the Germinar is not a coated lens.
  5. Well he is not offering you a 600 mm APO Ronar. There are none with a
    linearized scale.

    He is offering the 600mm Apo Ronar CL process lens. The CL series had a
    linear aperature scale. The Apo Ronar series did not. The 600, 800 and
    1200mm Apo Ronar CL lenses are 6 element designs. The shorter ones were
    4 element.
  6. Thanks Bob.
    But what does that really mean? Are the Ronar CL lenses better or worse than the "regular" Apo-Ronar? And being a six element design, how would that play a role in the over all quality of the lens and the resulting image?

    All of your expertise is really appreciated. I was never a real wiz when it comes to optics. I know what a sharp negative looks like, but that's where my knowlegde begins to "slow down".
  7. All it means is that a linear aperture scale is only on the CL and to deliver the
    expected results for copying they made the lens 6 elements.

    It doesn't mean much for landscape work as it was never designed for that
    application. It was made to only be used at f32 however since it is 600mm and
    longer. Shorter they were only designed to be used at f22.
  8. One more comment, question .... and Arne I hope you are still reading since
    you know a goo dbit more about these lenses than I do.

    William, you said in your original post that it was a "Zeiss" Apo Germinar NOT
    a DOCTER Apo Germinar. While the two lenses are mechanically and
    potically the same I only mention it as aquestion of age. Docter bought the
    East German Zeiss LF manufacturing facility right after unification and, thus, if
    it were manufactured in the past decade yoru lens would be marked Docteror
    Docter, Wetzler not Zeiss. IF the lens is new old stock dating back to the Zeiss
    days what the selle ris eeeing could be a deterioration of the cement between
    two elements, easy enough for a professional to fix.

    FYI the image circle of the Apo Germinar, from an email from Arne to me, from
    a typed chart he got from the factory is: 9/600mm: 585mm (at f22).


  9. If the Apo-Germinar is not coated at all, as William indicated, and is marked Zeiss, it sure is an old version of the lens, even old for GDR standards. As far as I know, the elements are NOT cemented (AFAIK, this is also true for the 6-element Apo-Ronars - Bob may correct me there if I am wrong), so the "Schleier" should not be cement gone bad. If the lenses are really not coated at all, 6 elements mean 12 air-glass surfaces, which would result in considerable flare. I'd go for the Ronar in that case.
  10. Well now it's getting interesting. The lens is definatly marked as Zeiss, and is NOS. I saw a picture of the identical lens, which the seller was selling on the German Ebay a few weeks back. It looked juicy enough to make me want to choose it over the Apo-Ronar CL.

    But I will be wanting to use this lens for landscape and architectural work with my 12X15" Thornton Pickard camera. I will of course only be contact printing. So the question is, if the Ronar CL top out at f32, what kind of results can I expect from the lens if I stop down to f64 or f90?

    I suppose at the price I'll be getting the lens at, I'm sure making a big fuss, but now that a few optic experts have shown an interest in this thread, I might as well pick their brains.

    Thanks to all who have contributed their knowledge!
  11. Hi,

    as said before, the 6-element is all-air spaced, there is no cement. The elns is as well coated, and shooting the Apo Ronar and the Apo Germinar side by side you may recognize that the Apo Germinar is very, very good. There were two versions though, one all-brass and HEAVY and the last one with aluminum body, thus lighter.

    There also was a special Apo Germinar S 9/600, very rare 6-element four cell multi-coated version.


  12. Hi again,

    you can take the Apo Germinar 9/600 apart from the rear cell, loosen the rear screws, and slide away the rear element and thus clean from any haze or dust between the cells. When putting back make sure you set into the same orientation.

    The Apo Ronars were made as four element dialyte (Artar type) lenses from 150mm through 1200 mm. As of 600 mm through 1200mm the Apo Ronars were as well offered as 6-element all-air-spaced versions. These were made for the most demanding jobs, and prices were accordingly. The 9/800 is of an older, also 6-element design.

    There were 3 barrel versions: one with non-linear f-stop scale, one with linear scale (e.g. Apo Ronar 9/600 L) and then the CL-versions.

    Interestingly the 6-element all-air-spaced versions of the Apo Germinars and the Apo Ronars are very similar in design.

    Just to complete this: There were also 8-element Apo Ronars e.g. Apo Ronar 16/1000.

    Al above lenses were made to very tight tolerances, and are able to offer very acceptable infinity performance when stopped down a bit.


  13. I just checked my 300mm Apo-Germinar, and both the front and the back lens of each cell are held in place by the usual slotted retaining ring, so if you have a tool for those, its possible to open them.

    Re coating: The single coating on my Apo-G. does not have a very distinct reflection color, as opposed to the common blue-magenta single coating. They are coated, however, and its obvious when compared to a really uncoated lens, but may not be so obvious on its own.

    Jörg, interesting infomation on the Apo-Ronars. I have a German pocess lens brochure from Rodenstock, printed in 1982. That one lists only the 1000mm and 1200mm as 6 element lenses, both as "regular" Ronars and as CL versions. That was the base for my comment that the 600mm is 4 elements (and it means that a "600mm CL" can be either 4 or 6 elements). I guess they changed their product line with time, even for the same focal length. Do you know when they made the 6-element ones?

    Oh, my 4-Element 600mm f/9 Apo Ronar is about 1700g with the Compound shutter...
  14. Thanks Arne. I get the feeling I'm going to be taking my chances with the Germinar after all. It sounds like a cleaning job that either I, or atleast my lens/shutter guy can tackle.

    BTW, I'm pretty sure the housing is aluminum and not brass, but with a camera the size of this 12X15, a few hundred grams won't make much of a difference one way or another.
  15. Ok, the Docter version of the 600mm Apo-Germinar in barrel is listed with 2.35kg...
  16. Hi,

    my Apo Germinar 9/600 (6-element/aluminum) weighs 1900 grams and the Apo Ronar CL 9/600 (4-element/aluminum) has 1560 grams.


  17. Hi Arne,

    I tried to see you at Freiberg yesterday, you were on a business trip.
    Will come back top you with info on the "Germinar W" line.


  18. The Germinar has an Aluminum housing and the Ronar is an "L" design.

    The seller can not say for sure if the haze is a fungus or not. If so, it's probably fit to be recycled.
    The seller has made the offer to let me check out the lens and attempt a cleaning. If it doesn't do the trick, I can have the Apo Ronar L instead. All I have to cover is the additional postage cowsts.

    Any last comments? Thanks again!
  19. William,

    let us know how the project works out once you have the lens in hand.
  20. For all of you guys in the know, what is an Apo Ronar S then. I have one in 800 MM/32 inch that is marked Klimsch, and also 24 inch Klimsch that doesn't have any letter designation or millimeter designation.
  21. Kevin,

    your Apo Ronar S 9/800 is definitely a six-element four-cell design,
    therefore different from the late 6-element all-air spaced Apo Ronars (600/1000/1200), and may be also different from the standard 9/800 they made. It may be a somewhat older version, literature at least describes such a design. "Klimsch" was the leading repro-supplier in Europe, shut down ten to fifteen years ago.

    Hope this helps a bit.

    Best regards

  22. Re :"Well he is not offering you a 600 mm APO Ronar. There are none with a linearized scale. He is offering the 600mm Apo Ronar CL process lens. The CL series had a linear aperature scale. The Apo Ronar series did not. The 600, 800 and 1200mm Apo Ronar CL lenses are 6 element designs. The shorter ones were 4 element." - - BOB Salomon--

    Our 600mm F9 Apo Ronar on our process camera has a non linear scale; just like Bob said. It is serial 88xxxxx; an was bought new in 1979. It is marked 600mm / 24 inch. many process lenses are also marked in inches also on their barrels. Our longer lens is a 890mm F14 / 35 inch Apo Ronar; and shortest is a 360mm F9 Apo Ronar; marked with "14 inch" on barrel. Our lenses work best @f22; and F32 for the longest one.

    For extremely detailed map making; some firms used the 6 element Apo-Ronars for process cameras. I have rarely seen these surplus; while the Apo-Ronars pop up all the time; and go cheap; because process cameras are rarely used today. Most all of the cameras have been scraped; but the lenses make it to Ebay to probably drive Bob alittle batty with all the goofy questions. Process cameras such as ours use high contrast films; and studio lighting. Contrast is bloody high; because of these conditions. For usage outdoors; the ronar needs a BIG hood; and isnt going to win any sharpness awards. But they are dirt cheap; and are usefull as a start.
  23. To test my 600mm or 890mm APO Ronar at infinity; I would have to cut a huge wall to the outside; in our darkroom. The rail length is 17 feet. Maybe I could cut the rail in half or a third; and mount the Process camera in the bed of a pickup truck. :) There is a rotor sector shutter behind the lens. The electical breaker to the camera,lights,vacuum plate is 240 Vac 60 amps.....Biggest draw is the Pulsed Xenon lamps; 6000W total. [​IMG]
  24. We're getting off topic here, but I'm not sure it's true that all 600mm APO-Ronar-CLs have 6 elements. I've got a 600mm/9 APO-Ronar-CL with serial # 10,342,467 (circa 1979 - 1984) which, I think, has only 4 elements. It weighs 1563 grams and is 85mm long. I don't think this is enough weight or bulk for a 6 element version. (You'd think one could count the elements by looking carefully, but all this does is make me dizzy.)
    Here's what Rodenstock has to say about the current/last incarnation of the APO-Ronar-CL. It's not much.
  25. Ok I'll throw out a guess here; maybe I am all wet.....<BR><BR>Our Big Process camera was purchased in the late 1970's. I dont remember a APO-RONAR in "CL" version being available; or marketed at ttah time... BUT I remember that a few of the longer APO RONAR's were available in 6 element design; for "super mapping" Process cameras...<BR><BR>Does the "CL" just mean a fancy lens coating? All our 1970's vintage Apo Ronar Process lens are coated; but they are single coated that doesnt really "jump out as being a coated lens". They must be inspected to catch a reflection; to see the coating..Could it be these Process camera lenses had a coating for blue light; because alot of the time they are used with ortho film? Regular view camera single coated lenses have more "vivid appearing" coatings. This is only a wild guess.............Maybe the CL means multicoating; or iso 900X?
  26. my guess is, the CL refers to Coated / Linear. Coated glass and a linear apeture. But that's just a guess from a guy who has learned everything he knows about Apo-Ronars from this thread ;-)
  27. The L in CL might refer to the linear scale. I don't think the coating is different, at least Rodenstocks brochure doesn't mention it. They do say, however, that the CL Ronars are better centered. They describe it in the process lens brochure I have. Instead of the usual mechanical mounting the lenses are first centered/oriented in the mount using autocollimation and are then permanently fixed in that position by injection of some plastic. According to Rodenstock this reduces stress-induced birefringence and reduces the variation of the MTF in production from 0.1 down to 0.05.
    Of course this process also means that an Apo-Ronar CL cannot be taken apart.
  28. WRT Davids comment: there certainly was a 600mm CL with four lenses around. My Roidenstock brochure from 1982 (printing date - I got it from Rodenstock around 1990) lists it both as plain Apo-Ronar and as CL version with 4 elements. I don't know if the 6-element version that Joerg mentioned was poduced before or after that time frame.
  29. What a coincidence. Just yesterday at dinner my wife commented that some of my images showed signs of stress-induced birefringence. We brainstormed and figured that some autocollimation might just do the trick. Small world. :)

    But seriously, does this mean that my new, big, beautiful, pristine, sexy 600mm/9 APO-Ronar-CL can't be mounted in a shutter? Say it isn't so!
  30. Hi again,

    as I said in an earlier message in this thread, there are four element and 6-element Apo Ronar's. The 9/600's are all four element. The 6-element is an F=11/600 lens (CL version only). The four element 9/600 Apo Ronarr CL weighs 1561 grams, while the 11/600 6-element weighs 1547 grams.

    All process Apo Ronar's were single-coated, employing a few layers of Magnesiumfluoride I assume. Only a few of the 16/1000 mm Apo Ronar's (all 16/1000 are 6-element or if older version are 8-element) were also offered multi-coated (as guessed by the multi-colour reflections). These latter one's were about twice the price of the equivalent focal length 4-element versions, and these were not dirt cheap. The 6-element versions were offered for extra critical jobs.

    As for infinity performance, Rodenstock says in one of their brochures that the long focal lengths Apo Ronar's are hard to beat by tele designs. I recently took a few shots in the 750 - 1200 range, Apo Ronar's and others vs Nikkor T-ED (a very good tele-design), and by just having a qualitative look at the negatives, the repro lenses are equivalent (resolution) and certainly give a much wider image circle in these long focal lengths.

    BTW, this may not belong into this group, the Apo Ronar's are superb long lenses if you have a MF camera with focal plane shutter, bellows (as the Rollei SL 66) .. all you need to make is an adapter and a tube with internal baffles to maintain high contrast.


  31. Again, the 480 is the longest Apo Ronar that fits into a #3 shutter. So your 600
    would not fit a #3. Now if you can find a good #5 you could have someone
    make adapters so the 600 cells would fit it.
  32. David: the CL should be adaptable to a shutter, I think. I was referring to taking individual cells apart for cleaning. However, I never had one in my hand, so take it with agrain of salt.

    It should be possible to adapt longer focal lengths than 480mm in a no. 3 Copal with custom made adapters if the distance between the two cells is significantly bigger than the thickness of the shutter (I don't know if this is true for the Ronars). Of course your maximum opening would go down accordingly. Maybe Steve Grimes can comment on this if he is following this thread.
  33. One additional comment on the infinity performance mentioned by Joerg: The late German photographer Reinhart Wolf (already mentioned today in the other thread on dual tripods) used the Apo-Ronars 360mm, 480mm, 600mm, and 1000mm for his 8x10 photos of New York skyscrapers (in the book "New York")and of Spanish castles ("Castillos"). That is quality assurance enough for me.
    Joerg, sorry you missed me afew days ago. I'm looking forward to your information on the Germinar-W. Arne
  34. David I hope your pictures are not too birefringent after all :).
    I enjoyed your comment; I just translated Rodenstocks text from German, but I think I owe an explanation here, although it may be somewhat off-topic.

    Birefringence due to mechanical stress essentially means that the refractive index of a material (glass in this case) changes if you apply pressure or bend it etc. (actually it induces the separation of the refractive index into TWO different indices for differently polarized light - that is why its called "bi"refringence). A change of refractive index is obviously detrimental to the quality of the image.

    Autocollimation: imagine a point light source exactly one focal length from your lens. This results in a parallel beam of light on the other side of the lens. If you place a mirror on that side, the beam is reflected back through the lens and forms an image point again. Only if the lens is absolutely perpendicular to the mirror AND if the lens elements are perfectly centered will that image point coincide with the point light source. Otherwise it is laterally displaced by some distance. Some of the tools to adjust enlarger stages use a similar principle, like the Versalab "Parallel" or the Zig-align.
  35. Hi,

    Arne just to pick up what you just referred to: there is a simple test for mechanical stress/distortion. You just take two linear crossed polarizers, one each on both sides of the lens in question. If there is stress, then you may see light shining through the lens.
    Smooth heating and a bit of tapping sometimes may help then.


  36. Over zealous tightening of a lens retaining ring warps the lens element at the micro level. The fringe pattern gets worse when overtightened; or if a burr is present; or if the retaining surface that contacts the lens is not perfectly 90 degrees to the axis of the threads of the retaining ring. In making custom lens mounts; we would test lens elements before and after mounting; a poor mount stresses the lens in a uneven way. Also the lens mount must not warp the lens element or mirror due to thermal stress. The optical centering of lenses in loose bores; and then gooping them in place has been done with custom optics for years. The other ways are either using the mounts bore to define the lenses edge; and use a compliant retaining ring. Or; use a loose bore; and have the retaining ring define the centering; because the ring will allow the spherical surface to move around and center on the ring. If the lens mounts threaded bores are not concentric; the retaining ring with loose bore method will have centering problems too.

    My 1971 Pro catalog "process lens page" lists a 800mm F9 Apo Ronar-S with a footnote that the S is for a Apo-Ronar in Shutter

    The 1971 Pro catalog "still camera lenses" list a 1000mm F9 Apo-Ronar in Compur Electric 5; a 600mm F9 in compur electic 5; and a 480mm F9 in compur electric 5...............What the heck is a compur electric 5??????BOB What does CL on a APO RONAR mean?
  37. "BOB What does CL on a APO RONAR mean?"

    Linear aperture scale
  38. Kelly,

    the Apo Ronar 9/800 does NOT fit into any standard shutter up to #5.

    The in '71 offered Apo Ronar 16/1000 in a Compur Electronic 5 FS was still the FAMOUS 8-element version. Dr. Naumann (for his biography see Kingslake's book) wrote an article on this superlens back in the early seventies if I remember.


  39. Hey BOB, if CL means Linear Apeture Scale, then what does L stand for in the Apo-Ronar L?
  40. Joerg, yes, that is the standard setup for birefringence testing in a "polariscope". As you mentioned its is important to use linear polarizers, or, if one uses circular polarizers, that the outside of the filters point towards the test object. A good example of the effect is to use a transparent plastic ruler (which is often already birefringent from the molding process) and bend it between crossed polarizers.
  41. "then what does L stand for in the Apo-Ronar L"

    No idea it is not something sold in the photo market so we have no factory
    information on it. Since these are graphic arts lenses you might try asking in a
    graphic arts forum (if there is one).

    Rodenstock makes, and made, all types of optics for applications other then
    photographic - like Xray, Laser, machine vision, CD readers, etc. We only
    have references for those designed for photogrpahy.
  42. To further clarify about the scales on the CL version of the Ronar, here are some pictures of the scales on mine. In addition to the usual scale that represents the iris opening in terms of f-stops there is a second scale on the other side of the lens that reprents the iris opening in millimeters. I assume the term "linear aperature scale" mentioned in previous responses refers to the millimeter scale, but I could be mistaken. By the way, the wide red line in the pictures (under "1:9 f=600mm/24in.") is an opening into which filters can be inserted. I'm told this is common is barrel-mounted process lenses.
  43. Linear scale means the distance between apertures as marked on the
    aperture scale are equally spaced from each other.

    The size markings in mm were used by operators of graphic arts cameras.
  44. the Apo Ronar 9/800 does NOT fit into any standard shutter up to #5.
    This collection of pictures of barrel lenses mounted into shutters on S. K. Grime's site shows a 750mm/f9 6-element APO-Germinar mounted in an Ilex #5 shutter. It seems like the 800mm/f9 Ronar (which has basically the same optical formula, yes?) would also fit in a #5 shutter. To retain f9 the max shutter opening would have to be about 5.5mm larger, so perhaps there might be a slight loss of maximum aperature. Just conjecturing here.
  45. BOB; thanks for the answers. <BR><BR>Joerg; the "still camera lenses" reference table on page 126 in "the 1971 Reference & Buying Guide for Industrial & Graphics Arts Equipment" shows the apo-ronar's of 1000mm, 600mm, & 480mm in Compur Electric 5 . Either the table is in error; or maybe a specialized larger shutter was made for the graphics arts market; and mislabeled an "electric 5" . The graphics arts market used many off the shelf "photo and enlarging" lenses; and added shutters. These stock or custom shutters were not marketed thru normal photo dealers; and were sold to graphic arts dealers. Many times I have read threads on this board about a shutter not existing for a lens; when I have seen the lens in usage with a shutter. We used a 210mm F5.6 Schneider Componon in Sychro Compur for one decade; I got an email once from a fellow who said it never existed; and quoted web site which said so. Such is the murky world of optics; many tables have errors...
  46. No idea it is not something sold in the photo market so we have no factory information on it. Since these are graphic arts lenses you might try asking in a graphic arts forum (if there is one).
    I was under the impression that the CL version is also a "Graphic Arts" lens, correct?
  47. Our longest Ronar is a 890mm and is only a F14 lens. I believe some of the tables out there are in error; one showed a 890mm F9; where ours is a F14. These tabular errors get copied yet into another table or website; and add to the confusion.
  48. "the CL version is also a "Graphic Arts" lens, correct"

    Correct. All Apo Ronar lenses are. But the CL happens to be listed in a
    brochure for the Apo Ronar process lenses as were the Apo Rodagons
    longer then 180mm and the Apo Geragon series and some enlarging lenses..
  49. Graphic Arts is a dead market; I believe Bob will agree with me on that concept. With small F32 apertures being used; the actual exposure is usually done with a timer on the arc lamps illuminating the copy platten. With Typical Kodalith asa 6; exposures are many seconds. With the rare greyscale job; the timer many times needs to be say 0.2 seconds with asa 100 film; which is difficult to do with a darkroom timer. Either a giant ND filter is used; or a leaf shutter; which is rare in giant process lenses. May of us used a black hat as a shutter; with another person in the other room contolling the arc lamps. The pulsed Xenon lamps fire with the 60 cycle line frequency; thus a super short exposure adds alot of weird color problems sometimes. <BR><BR>The apo ronars of ours are stopped down to F22 or f32 to mask field curvature. These are "flat field" lenses; with little distortion; but the corners will be not sharp; and the center sharp when used at F9. The warning sticker on our process camera mentions this; and the rodenstock data we have on each lens serial number. Most short apo ronars work best at F22; and real long ones F32.<BR><BR>
  50. Kelly,

    sorry my fault, by FIT INTO A SHUTTER, I understood that you can SCREW the cells into the shutter without any further machining etc. i.e. just manually within a few seconds. None of the repro versions of the Apo Ronar's fit this way into standard shutters, BUT with some proper machining you can make them fit, through the services of S.K. Grimes or equivalent people. This with some more or less efforts can be done with most of the Apo Ronars, that includes the 9/800. You may have to check whether the spacing of the cells is big enough for the intended shutter.

    The Apo Germinar 9/750 is BASICALLY the same design as the 9/800's Apo Ronars, except that the Apo Germinar (an outstanding lens) is a 6-element ALL-AIR SPACED design while the 9/800 Apo Ronar, also a 6-element design (whichever version, they differ only by whether elements 1+2 or 2+3 on each side are cemented) has cemented elements.

    My previous note (somewhere above) agrees that there was a 16/1000 Apo Ronar in a COMPUR ELECTRONIC 5 FS shutter. You could have all the other Apo Ronars you mention as well in this shutter (480/600/1000). This shutter is well-built, mechanically strong, and does have large threads on both sides (85mm), therefore is a good candidate to mount large cells on both sides or to front mount.
    Times are from 1/60 to 32 seconds.


  51. "Bob will agree with me on that concept"

    That I do as well as the required apertures.

    As for the electronic Compur shutter it requires a less then common (if not
    discontinued) battery.
  52. The battery required for the electronic shutters is available in many regular camera stores here in Germany. And if they are not readily available where you live, there is a trick of combining 2 smaller batteries, that when combined, work fine. Which 2 batteries they are, I cannot remember, but if someone needs the info, I can dig it up for them.
  53. Well whaddaya know, there is 600mm/9 Ronar in a #5 shutter for sale on eBay. I shameless stole the picture.
    The description is in German. Here it is:

    Serien-Nr. 10394681. Sehr guter Zustand. 2 Schutzkappen. Cambo Objektivplatte.
    Rarität, wird nicht mehr gebaut.
    Neuwert 1992: 2.000 €

  54. And here is a 1000mm/f16 Apo-Ronar-CL in a #5 eletronic shutter too!

    Serien-Nr. 10788360. Sehr guter Zustand. 2 Schutzkappen. Cambo Objektivplatte.
    Rarität, wird nicht mehr gebaut.
    Neuwert 1992: 7.500 €
  55. here is the more common electronic shutter which I believe was being referred to in the post above, also from the German ebay
  56. Whoops wrong again, but it's a nice pic...
  57. And in order to operate that #5 Compur shutter you need the control box that
    plugs into that multi contact plug that is visible in the photo. That control box
    has not been available for quite some time. Wonder if he has one for each
    lens? Or one for both lenses?
  58. Bob,

    both 5 FS shutter and Control box with cable are available on the used items market. I use them and am very satisfied. Because of the large and mechanically strong front and rear threads of the shutter I am using the shutter to front mount long lenses (750/890/1000) and to mount via an adapter the front and rear cells of the 1000 and 1200 mm Apo Ronars. Although discontinued for a while this shutter is built to last.

    These shutters when new were not amongst the cheap ones, and I am happy they appear on the market from time to time.


  59. Hi all,

    for those of you still on this thread, a pic on the long Apo ronars.


  60. Hey Joerg,

    either you have some real connections at Rodenstock, or you shpould be more careful not to bring your lenses near moving saw blades! ;-)

    Thanks to all that participated in this thread. It was a real learning experience!
  61. William,

    you are right, I only sacrificed the famous 8-element version of the Apo Ronar 16/1000 as to be seen. I cut my fingers on the 6-element 16/1000 CL and then gave up.

    Will give you a call this evening.


  62. "800mm F9 Apo Ronar-S with a footnote that the S is for a Apo-Ronar in

    Not according to Rodenstock.

    The 520mm and 650mm Apo Ronar S lenses were developed to make direct
    offset plates at f16.

    Nothing to do with a shutter. However a dealer catalog somewhere may have
    used an S to indicate that it a lens was in shutter.

    There was also an Apo Ronar M that was for printed circuit board

    As for the Compur Electronic 5 shutters the mounting threads are 85mm. The
    600mm Apo Ronar has a 110mm screw thread on it's mount so an adapter
    will make it slower then f9. The 1000mm f14 had a 120mm thread and the f16
    had a 135mm thread mount.

    The control unit uses 6 C cells to power it or an optional AC adapter. The
    adapter was made in 220V only and was available in 110V on special order
    only. The cables were available in 1.5m, 4m and 10m and extensions in 4
    and 10m.

    This shutter has not been available for at least 2 decades.
  63. Joerg,

    Thanks for the great picture! But all it shows is a Ronar with eight half-elements. Isn't that the same as a Ronar with four full-elements? I mean, what's the big deal? :)
  64. David,

    you got it !! It's the universal lens !


  65. Just expressing my appreciation for the highest standard of the debate. Wow.

    I have both, a 750mm APO-Germinar and a 600mm Klimsch APO-Ronar. In Germany the Klimsch lenses and cameras were held in highest esteem. Both are top, of course.

    Anyway, I learned a lot. Thanks to all.

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