5D mark II not repairable due to water damage

Discussion in 'Canon EOS' started by daniel_bauza, Jun 15, 2012.

  1. I was just informed by the Canon repair facility in NJ that my 5D mark II is unrepairable due to "extensive water damage". The parts alone will exceed the cost of replacing the camera body. (over $2000.00) I contacted customer service In Virginia where I was told that they stand behind their techs and that was the finding. All people I spoke with read the report back repeatedly.
    Let me explain... The camera was around my neck at Expedition Everest In Disney when it began to rain two weeks ago. I was less than fifty feet from the souvenir shop waiting to take a picture of my family members as they emerged on the ride from the side of the mountain. When the rain began I walked into the shop and wiped the camera off with my tee shirt. The camera went into continuous shoot mode for about three or four shots then shut down. That was the last time it worked.
    Canon asked me to send $310.00 to begin working on it. A week later I decided to check the status of the repair and I see that the camera is being returned to me unrepaired as per my request.
    As it stands after speaking to six different people in NJ and Virginia Canon will see if they can sell me a refurbished 5d mark II at a discounted price.
    Oh I forgot to mention... The water damage can be a bucket of water or a drop. Once it enters the main mechanism the tech determines to replace all internal parts he deems affected by possible corrosion. This after I argued the point of not having exposed the camera to extensive rain or having dropped it in water.
    Please share your like experiences as I find this very difficult to accept. The entire process and the way it has been handled has left me with a sour taste in my mouth.
    Had I been using the camera in the rain or dropped it in water I would not be writing this post. Are these bodies made of tissue paper?
  2. zml


    It is seldom a drop, and the extent of the damage may depend on the lens used. I did use my original 5D in wet/dump conditions a lot (until it fell into the ocean :) but always with a weather sealed lens (the lens had a rubber seal around the mount.) Even 1D class bodies are not "weather sealed" if used with not weather sealed lens. But, if the entire rig is properly sealed, i.e. 1D/1Ds/1Dx and perhaps 7D and 5D3 class body, a weather sealed lens and a filter on the front element, it can withstand a lot of water abuse in my experience: hours of shooting in pouring rain, being totally immersed in salt water (then in a few buckets of fresh water to runse it off), etc. Not that I advocate such behavior but sometimes one has no choice but shoot regardless of conditions.
  3. Sorry to hear about that Daniel. If Canon says it's dead, then your only two choices are to try to get an independent repair shop to look at it, or to sell it for parts.
    My buddy had his 5D II take a fall into salt water and it was DOA as a well. He was still able to sell it for parts on ebay for around $700-800. Something to consider when choosing your repair/replacement options.
  4. That stinks, but water in just the wrong place is water damage regardless. No, they're not made of tissue. Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes not. I dropped a lens out of the back of a car once and it survived. I dropped a camera once and it did not.
    [[As it stands after speaking to six different people in NJ and Virginia Canon will see if they can sell me a refurbished 5d mark II at a discounted price.]]
    It doesn't sound like you're too keen on another camera but, there is something called the Canon Loyalty Program where you can exchange a broken camera for a heavily discounted refurbished one. You need to provide the serial number of the camera you're exchanging before you can place the order. I believe the number you call is 866-443-8002, press 2, and ask about the loyalty program. According to one website, the current price for a 5D II through the program is ~$1400.
  5. Thanks for your response Michael, I understand and agree with your statement. I'm just so upset over how little exposure it took to fry this camera. I didn't even take the shot! lol
    Sheldon, I will consider the ebay option... The body has about 500 to 1000 activations if that. At lead I can put that money towards another body if all else fails.
    Rob, Canon NJ did offer the loyalty program as an option but they have no 5D's at the moment. Thanks. The price is correct .$1400.00
  6. Living in the tropics I deal with downpours regularly so I keep a micro fiber terry cloth and plastic bag at ready. Prior to using these items, I killed off a few cameras during brief downpours, including both Canon and Nikon (actually the Canon A2 came back to life a week later and worked fine for years). During the last 3 years, I've shot extensively with a 5D2 in the rain, fog and waterfall mists and it did fine with my cloth, bag (and umbrella when using a tripod).
    My experience is that sweaty t-shirts are not terribly absorbent and tend to smear water around and force it into places you don't want it to go like seams, wheels, switches and nested barrels. Dabbing with a micro fiber terry cloth works a lot better as it quickly absorbs the water without forcing it into sensitive areas.
  7. If you do a search over at Luminous Landscape there was an incident on a group photo trip to Antarctica where there was a multiple failure (from water damage) of 5D2s...apparently the problems occurred from (a) shooting outside in cold rainy weather and then bringing the camera into a warm room to dry; and/or (b) light salt spray.
    Did you bring the camera into an air-con room after it became wet outside? That might have exacerbated the problem...
    Anyway, the upshot in the discussion at Luminous Landscape is that the 5D2 is not weathers sealed at some key points - especially if you use the camera with a grip. The widespread (massive) failure of 5D2s on that Antarctica trip (soon after its release mind you) may be one reason why Canon "improved" the weather sealing on the new 5D3...anyway, if you can read the discussion by many photographers from that trip - they were angry with Canon - and there may be some advice for you about what to do next.
  8. I could understand if the user had dropped into a swimming pool (like I just did with my iPhone 4 -- Ouch!). I've been outside in the rain with just about every camera I have had. I've been careful, trying to dash out and dash in, using an umbrella, etc., but I've definitely gotten a few drops of rain on the cameras. Hard to believe that they are THAT fragile.
    Maybe I should go back to the Leica M2 when I need to be in the rain.
  9. Sorry, duplicate post
  10. [[but I've definitely gotten a few drops of rain on the cameras. Hard to believe that they are THAT fragile.]]
    Again, it's not necessarily the volume of water, but /where/ the water fell and how it entered the camera that matters.
  11. Yeah but this story, a Canon "semi-pro" camera that is so sensitive to water that walking 50 feet to get out of the rain make it unrepairable could sell a LOT of Nikon cameras couldn't it?
  12. What sort of rain was it? If in Florida, it could be pretty heavy.
  13. david_henderson

    david_henderson www.photography001.com

    I must admit that companies who blindly stand by the judgments of their employees, without knowing whether they're right or wrong right or wrong, go down a lot in my estimation. Lets face it, if the OP is telling the full story then the Canon tech's assessment is likely to be wrong, or over-dramatic. I use my Canon 5D Mkii in the rain quite often with no ill effects at all.
    Here's the problem
    "the tech determines to replace all internal parts he deems affected by possible corrosion." Now I don't know whether these are your words or Canon's but its highly likely that this is precisely what has happened and you're paying the price for an over-zealous and ultra conservative technician, or even perhaps a technician that cannot diagnose what's actually wrong and can only suggest that you need to replace everything. At the very least , given the extreme consequences, Canon should be offering to get a senior technician to look and the camera and draw independent conclusions.
    If it were me I'd be looking to source an independent repairer , and if I could source a cost-effective repair I'd be sure to let the person running Canon USA know the score.
  14. The OP's incident is extremely unfortunate but hardly typical of the 5D2. Nobody here knows the details of what really happened and the devil is always in the details. I'm careful but I have gotten lots of rain and salt spray on my 5D2 for brief periods many dozens of times and as recently as two weeks ago. Perhaps the OP's camera had a defect, and surely there is more to the story than any of us know.
    I recall a poster with a water damaged 10D at Pop Photo forum that Canon refused to covered under warranty (he duplicated his post on nearly every forum). He had photos and the interior of the camera suffered extreme corrosion from salt water. He stated he had never been near the ocean but had sweaty hands so either the camera seals were defective or it had shipped with salt water damage. I don't know if Canon or he was right but I know my 10D spent several years on or near tropical big wave beaches and was covered in salt spray every week. I wiped it down after each shoot (rinsed off the UV filter in the sink!) and kept covered the camera with a towel when left on a tripod for hours on end.
  15. Gentlemen, I appreciate all your responses. The camera just arrived on my porch with a note from Canon stating that it was being returned at my request unrepaired.
    To those who have accepted what I wrote as fact, I thank you.
    To those who are more skeptical and question my integrity by comparing my case to that of other individuals who may not have been totally honest in presenting the facts of their stories I can only say that what I've written here is what has transpired and if the camera had been exposed to any extensive period of rain or dropped in water I would not generate a posting such as this.
    I requested that Canon have another tech look at the camera but the customer service supervisor in Chesapeake Virginia said the findings would be the same and persisted in saying that this camera would not be repaired. The only option she offered me was the possibility of a refurbished body at a reduced price.
    I wish to make it very clear that I am an end user who is in no way affiliated with any camera manufacturer or retailer. I've owned Nikon and Canon gear and consider both to be excellent. This is my first negative experience which honestly has me perplexed.
  16. I haven't lost a camera yet due to water damage, knock on wood.
    Best advice when it starts raining and you're out in it - get to shelter ASAP. Cover the camera with anything that you have handy to keep it as dry as possible. I've gotten drenched so my camera could stay dry.
    If it does get wet, resist the temptation to fire it up to see if it still works. Leave it off until you have dried off all visible water. Then leave it off longer - overnight works well... Remove the lens. Let any moisture on the inside dry out. If possible put it in a sealed container with packets of silica gel - or if you don't have that - use white rice. The rice will draw out the moisture (just be careful not to get any in the camera.
    After a day in treatment, you can try to fire it up again. If you turn it on too soon after exposure to water, the water will short out the circuits, which is what it sounds like happened to this one. And yes - it is not about the volume of water, it is like real estate - Location, Location, Location.
  17. I had a similar experience with a 100mm L macro that got wet. Canon totaled it. I received it back AFTER I bought a and used a replacement, and it worked. When I called to complain, their argument was that they will only repair it if they can repair it to the point where they can stand behind it as they would a refurb. He explained what would have to be done to reach that point with my lens, including replacing circuit boards that MIGHT fail, and the cost would have been more than a new lens.
    11 months later, it still works.
    This is one more reason why Canon's new policy (in which they are following in the footsteps of Nikon), under which they will not sell parts to third party repair shops for their new cameras, is so bad. The consumer should be free to say: OK, replace that one part that failed, and I will gamble on the rest. Canon will not do that, and they (and Nikon) are in the process of killing off any independent repair shops that might. This will of course also eliminate price competition for repairs.
  18. I might try to escalate the problem up the management chain a bit. Write to whoever the head of Canon USA is, or the head of their consumer electronics divison is. They must list all their executive officers for the US somewhere on their website.
    The 5D MkII is sold as being pretty weathersealed. There's no way it should fail after a few seconds in a light shower. People have used then in downpours with no problems. They're better sealed when used with a weathersealed lens of course, otherwise water can get in via the lensmount.
    Your problem is that Canon can only tell there is internal water damage. They don't know if you dunked it underwater for a day, shot outdoors in a hurricane for 6 hours or a few raindrops fell on it as you claim. By the time they got it I assume it had dried out, so how can they tell? I'm sure 90% of people sending in water damaged cameras probably claim that the camera was only caught in a brief shower.
    Even if there was some defect in one of the seals, if it's outside the warranty period, they aren't technically responsible. Manufacturing defects are only repaired for free during the warranty period. That applies to pretty much everything whether it's a car, a camera or a toaster.
    You might get a sympathetic ear from a manager, then again you might not. You were very unlucky, you might never buy another Canon camera based on your experience, but Canon are well within their rights to decline to repair it. It sucks, but "that's life" as they say. Repair of water damaged gear is often declined. There's just no way to know where the water got to and what corrosion processes are underway. They could repair the obvious immediate damage only to have some other part fail in a month, then another part after that. The only way to be sure is to basically replace the entire insides of the camera, and if you're going to do that it's probably cheaper to buy another one.
  19. Bob,
    I thank you for taking the time to read my posting and respond in kind. I understand what you are saying and realize I am holding the very short end of the stick . As you pointed out, just about anyone would say that a dunk in the Atlantic was just a couple of drops from a passing shower.
    I will follow your advice and contact Canon corporate. Maybe my luck will change and I'll find that 'sympathetic ear' I'm in need of.
  20. I don't doubt your story.

    My personal experience is different than yours. I have been in driving rain storms with no problem. I was out on a
    sailboat in the ocean and got caught by a wave that nearly carried me over the side and the 5DMII camera kept working.
    I count that one a sheer luck!

    There are no end of reasons as to why your camera stopped working then mine kept working. Anything from poorly
    manufactured to some unseen damage that occurred after it left the factory. The there are small rubber gaskets around
    the various doors,etc, they get torn, water comes in. The side rubber covers for USB connections, if not closed all the
    way or damage could let in a lot of water.
  21. Daniel,
    This really unfortunate.
    Can you not claim the cost of repairs/replacement from your insurance company?
    Even if you don't have the camera on a seperate schedule of personal effects, it should be covered.
  22. it


    I had the same thing happen a few years ago. One of my 5Ds quit after I shot a wedding in Mexico. Canon Canada said it was ruined from water damage. About 8 months later I dropped it off at Canon Thailand for a second opinion and it came back working after a clean. ($8)
    No explanation as I hadn't told them about it's previous trip to the shop.
  23. I phones don't work well in washing machines either! Strange! Mark
  24. Might pay to have camera insurance. Didn't VISA used to advertise they double the warranty so anything you paid for with a VISA card no matter what happens to it within double the warranty period. They used to have a commercial showing a kid racing his new remote control car down a stair well, Of course I have not seen that commercial in 1o years or more. But if you paid for the camera with Visa they may double your warranty so if anything breaks, it gets fixed or replaced if you are still within double the warranty time.
    This is the only recent commercial I could find on YouTube.
    Worth calling your card company and see if they offer that if you bought it that way.
  25. I believe those credit card programs merely extend the manufacturers warranty. The manufacturers warranty without
    doubt excludes water damage under various clauses. The commercial hyperbole aside.
  26. Daniel -
    What Canon techs may be doing is simply looking at a mark / strip of paper in the camera body and seeing if it indicates water exposure.
    I know cell phones have a little piece of water sensitive material - like tape - in the battery compartment. If that marker is red (indicating water exposure) or missing (taken off by the user or wears off) then the warranty is void - because they assume water damage.
    I had that happen on a Verizon Cell phone. The normal speaker / microphone stopped working. We took it in and they indicated that the phone had been exposed to water. Which of course, we knew it hadn't - other than normal sweat, and moisture from hands. But it didn't matter - because that strip of paper was red - we could have just as well ran it through the washer.
  27. I tend to agree with you David, especially after my discussion with the customer service supervisor In Virginia.
    What I found most frustrating was the ademant refusal to reevaluate the camera. I was not allowed to actually speak with a tech. I was told that the techs have no phones at their work stations. It was very frustrating to speak with people who repeatedly read the same report about corrosion and water damage and had no working knowledge of the 5D mark II. You might as well have well have been talking about a cellphone to them. One young lady proceeded to make comparisons based on her Sure Shot.
    Interestingly enough my daughter allowed my 11 month granddaughter to play with her iPhone and she drooled in it causing all kinds of funny things to happen. I took it into Apple yesterday and explained that it was water damage. I was offered an exact replacement for $149.00.
    While there I spoke to another gentleman who is an avid Canon photographer and explained my situation. The first thing he asked was, "Aren't the 5D's sealed? " lol
    Going forward I will look into insurance... My other bodies and L series lenses. Yep should do it.
  28. It seems to me that one of two things are true. Either 5d mk IIs are excessively sensitive to getting wet, potentially causing Canon to total the camera and refuse to fix it, or they're not.
    If they aren't, then having a camera die due to water damage is rare. In that case Canon could get a lot of good publicity cheaply by replacing it. Or it they are, then perhaps there is a design issue or design issues with the camera that makes them a poor choice for anyone who might be caught out in the rain with their camera (i.e. everybody).
    Everyone including me have gotten a few drops on their camera now and then (it's unavoidable, especially if you're caught walking during a sudden storm). How lucky do you have to be in order to not have damage? It sounds as though the answer with the 5d mk II might be VERY.
  29. Sorry for your situation. I lost a 450D a few years a go the same way, got caught in a rain shower. I had a plastic bag
    and backpack that I put it into as soon as the shower started. I had thought that I had done a good job of keeping it dry.
    But, when I got in my car and took it out of the bag there was about a teaspoon of water in the bag. The 450D was
    completely dead, I tried drying it for day's and such, but no luck. Took it to a local camera shop hopping they knew
    someone in town who could look at it, because it was a cheap camera and knew it would not take much to total it. But,
    they sent it to Canon who said it was a complete loss. I always wondered if it really was, but it is better to just suck it up
    and get a new camera and start taking photos again. I lost a few months of photos, which in retrospect was the real loss.
  30. In response to your comments David, I suppose I am one of the unlucky ones. From what I've read here and on other forums it would seem that the camera is not that sensitive to water damage and I've seen some incredible photos which bear testament to this. Some have said my body may have had faulty seals. I don't know.
    Matt I'm sorry for the lost of your 450D. And more importantly your lost photo opportunities. I know how that feels. This was my granddaughters first birthday/ first visit to Disney and this happened on the second day there so it was very frustrating to have to enlist iPhones for photo duty.
  31. This is why the first thing I did when I got the 5D MK III was add it to my insurance policy. Accidental loss, breakage, etc. It's a personal articles policy with all camera equipment listed with serial numbers, etc.
    Regarding rain I have shot soccer games with my 20D and 5D MK I in the pouring rain using a plastic rain shroud. I am sure it was 100% humidity. I never had issues but also having that super absorbent shamwow fabric or whatever they call it now, is a good idea to quickly dry the camera off.
  32. I have a weather sealed camera and lens (5Diii) but am still going out to buy a rain cover this week. It simply isn't worth taking any chances, especially as I live in the tropics.
    I was out shooting Rugby at the weekend and we had a tropical thunderstorm. Then, as if that wasn't enough the giant automated pitch sprinkler switched on (we are talking firehose strength, not garden sprinkler).
    Kinda funny watching the guys trying to swim down the pitch.
  33. Are there stories of Nikons and Sony's doing this same thing or is it just Canons?
  34. I was reading back over previous posts and several references were made to the lens which was on the camera at the time of the incident. I never provided that info. It was my L series EF 24-70 2.8. I see a rubber gasket on that lens at the mounting point so I doing think that may have been an issue.
  35. That is real strange and totally depressing. I have taken my Canon 30D and 7D in downpours and nothing happened to the camera. After it got wet, I wiped it off with a clean/dry towel and that is all, no problems to report. Makes me think that keeping my old film cameras including my EOS-3 was not such a bad idea after all.
  36. Water itself doesn't damage the camera. It is either corrosion (due to stuff in the water - like salt), or the short as a result of the water being present. If you had acted proactively, it is unlikely the water would have significantly damaged the internals. If, once exposed, you immediately remove the battery, and the time date battery (if possible), most damage from fresh water can be prevented.
    I have no doubt that, once it went into continuous mode, had you pulled the main batt, you'd still have a live camera. As one of the earlier posts suggested, putting the camera in a bag w/ silica or damp rid (after opening ALL the covers) can literally suck the water right out of the camera - which can save it if you haven't damaged the circuits (w/ shorting). Afterall, Kai's 7D survived immersion overnight (and freezing) - because he removed the battery prior! A 5D2 would have just as well.
    Apparently most people don't know this, which should be utterly obvious.
  37. Marcus, I'll try to remember to remove my battery prior to the next rain. Or potential water accident. Hopefully I'll have that foresight.
    Need to keep a small screwdriver handy in Disney to take off a microscopic screw and remove that time date battery as you recommend also.
    I totally overlooked the utterly obvious.
    ; )
  38. LOL just something to keep in mind. I've twice had water penetrate camera bodies (a 5D, and a 50D), and both times, as soon as I realized what was going on (the water penetrated the top controls/buttons both times - as, it seems from your description happened to you), I pulled the main batts (in neither case did I pull the backup batt until later). Once I was able to let them sit and dry properly, I was able to reinsert the main (and time/date) battery, and the cameras worked without flaw. My conclusion from those experiences was that:
    a) electricity does the damage (in fresh water situations), and that stopping it prevents damage - assuming you can stop it before the 'camera does something'/'water goes somewhere' causing physical damage to the circuits/chips.
    - in this situation do nothing, press no buttons, flip no switches, certainly(!) take no pictures... just pull the battery out!
    b) the time date batteries are lower voltage (3 vs 8.1), and current, and they power different subsystems (they don't, for example, power any of the control circuits - which is likely where your penetration occurred), meaning that any potential damage is much less likely. As I said I removed them later, but it was more of a precaution (and another opening to facilitate the drying) than I think a necessity. The biggey is the main battery...
    As far as Canon's conduct goes, I'd have to agree w/ you that their communications and customer interaction was rubbish. Even though their tech was almost certainly completely right. Certainly they could have provided some better communication between the tech and you. The line about 'no phone at the workstation...' is complete hogwash. That is called a 'Canon communications policy'- specifically that people not trained to deal w/ irate customers are not allowed to.
    He/she may not be as polished when dealing w/ customers, but he would certainly be able to tell you about the diagnostics he ran. Most likely, he plugged it in, ran the diagnostic software, it gave him a bunch of errors, each indicating a different part (circuit panel) w/ problems, and the total came up too high... leading to their condemning of the camera. Since you don't have anyway of knowing where the current went, and what path it followed, you can't say w/ any certainty that the main processor, the sensor, the upper circuit, display controller, memory interface, and others(?) weren't ALL forced to endure a full voltage short across them...
    ... IDK, you don't know, and I'd say that even the Canon Tech doesn't know, but he does know what his software tells him, and the camera has to pass that software check before it's 'fixed', so, for it to pass, those components have to be replaced...
    Sorry for your luck, my 5D2s haven't ever suffered penetration, despite shooting through some serious rain, and I've never heard of a consistent problem w/ them, so I can only ascribe it to bad luck... and to say it was bad would be a bit of an understatement...
  39. Marcus, thanks for the in depth analysis of what most likely did occur at the repair facility. I do understand what you are saying regarding the deprivation of power to the circuits and by so doing avoiding short circuits. I'll be totally honest with you. The thought never crossed my mind due the small amount of water which was involved. I was shocked when I heard the sounds coming from the camera and then instantly it shutting down. By then it was obviously too late to do anything. I did at that point remove the battery and then placed the body on the desk with all rubber flaps open overnight when I got back to the resort.
    My real issue is with the handling of the entire problem and how the Canon customer service rep had this take it or leave it attitude. As it stands I'm waiting for her to find it in her heart of hearts to sell me a refurbished body. lol
    I did write to the Canon CEO's office a couple of days ago. Hopefully someone there will take a closer look at this.
    As far as luck being bad... yeah I had one of my 50D's in hand when I was packing and I said take the 5D. What an idiot! Should have taken the Sure Shot then I could have had a real conversation with customer service. lol
  40. I do wonder if Disney Corp. could be held liable to pay for the repairs, if it was not just rain which entered the camera but water from one of their "rides"?.
  41. lol...I think that would be stretching the truth a bit, Jerry. Thanks though. Canon customer service has contacted me and requested I return the body. I am being offered a refurbished body at a discount. I will update the end result.
  42. I see that this is an old thread, but, if one of the first actions after having a "water experience" is to head to the internet, I would like to add my 2 cents. Salt water is NOT a death sentence. Everywhere I looked, this is all I saw. The Canon 5D Mark2 is indeed weather hardy and depending on the angle of the water hit, can withstand our errors in judgement. I will also say the the L series lenses are even sturdier.
    Yes, if the camera is off, you stand a better chance. Yes, open it up and remove the card and battery. I liked the suggestion of soaking up as much of the saltwater without dispersing it, as possible. And placing the equipment inside of a giant ziploc bag (they sell these at many supermarkets) with rice is fantastic as first steps. What was not mentioned is to make sure that you place your equipment on top of something like paper plates etc. You do not need to add rice starch to this nightmarish equation. And the lens caps must be off to be effective.
    This being said... here are some other ideas if you have been nailed by a roque wave of the salted variety. Once the drying process is complete enough, there are more things you can do. 99% alcohol and q-tips are good, but make sure you are not leaving or dragging stray fibers. The Zeiss wipes are excellent and do not shed. They come in individual packets. Unscrew what you can and be sure to put the tiny screws somewhere safe. This entrance points are a good place to put the Q-tip with alcohol (not so much as it drips).
    The final stage, (and I am talking about electronic concerns rather than glass - after all, glass can be cleaned), is scotch tape or stronger. Get a plastic coated paperclip and bend it into a U. You will ONLY use the bend, not the ends as these are sharp. One piece at a time, place scotch tape over any and all possible entry points and then get it into the crevices either with your fingernail or the paperclip U. You will be amazed what you see on that tape. Yes, little salt granules, and maybe even some seaweed! Go around all the buttons, dials etc and get the tape in there.
    Once that is done, you will do the same on the delicate seals between camera and lens, as well as the well of the camera body and lens. Do it until you do not get any more salt on the tape. Then do it again a day or two later and with this, and some luck, you just might be OK!

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