25% failure rate with 5DMk2's in Antarctica

Discussion in 'Canon EOS' started by stephen_asprey|2, Feb 6, 2009.

  1. I was about to order a new 5DMk2 when I came across this recent editors essay on his recent group trip to Antarctica:
    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/antarctica-2009-worked.shtml
    The numbers of Canon to Nikon was 2:1. There were no failures with any Nikon gear. Now I am getting cold feet. Has anyone found poor weather sealing causing failures with their Mk2's, like these guys did?
     
  2. The 5D series doesn't have real weather sealing. It's marketed as a studio cam and gentleman amateur plaything, and not a bulletproof 1D series. Why would you wanna shoot with in in salt spray, rain and wave action? That's like swimming nekid in Arctic waters. You're gonna freeze your nads off and fast.
    On the other hand, the D700 is actually seriously weather resistant and you pay a lot extra for it. However 70% of the 77 shooters were using Canon, 26 of which were 5DII, and the Nikons only accounted for 30%. Not a very statistically fair accounting. Unless you're planning on shooting in salt spray, rain and wave action, I'd say you're safe using the 5DII for studio and typical gentleman amateur activities.
     
  3. I just returned from shooting in Africa for a couple weeks. No problems at all with my 5DII. I was in the bush the entire time. Hot climate, more dust than you could shake a stick at... No problemo. I didn't even get any dust on the sensor with multiple lens changes daily! Get it. You'll love it
     
  4. I read that report and it had me a bit concerned at first, too. I have had a 5DMkII since just after they came out, and have so far traveled with it twice, once to Taiwan and once to Spain. I have not had one lick of trouble with it, and have already shot more than 4000 frames on it. I am planning to take it to South Africa with me in May and was concerned that the harsher environment there might trigger the troubles that those units in Antarctica suffered from, though the comment made by another poster about his success with the camera there gives me some comfort.
    Incidentally I was very surprised at how many 5DMkIIs I saw in Spain; seems like every other Canon shooter had one.
     
  5. I am a Canon shooter. I must say that no matter how you look at this report, it is a complete disaster for Canon. Yes, the 5DII is not weather sealed, but even some of the 1D series cameras used, failed. None of the Nikons had any issues. This is the worst marketing message for Canon. If the Nikons can take it, why not the Canons?
     
  6. Thanks so far.
    I was considering the Canon because of two things: The L series lens line up seems to offer a bit more choice, and the images seem nicer. I don't really care about brand. But I do expect that as the 5DMk2 is the second to top body in the Canon range, it would be as well made and sealed as the D700.
    Lets see who else writes in.
     
  7. I don't agree, Juergen.
    The Canons are being directly compared to the D700, which is another kind of camera entirely: the 1D failures might well have happened anywhere (I've never seen any low temperature/bad weather specific 1D ERR 99 reports, for example).
    The clear message of the article is that the weather-sealed D700 is more robust in (very! ) bad weather than the non weather-sealed 5D Mk II - that can't be a surprise to anyone, surely.
    Frankly it hardly merits a mention, IMHO - how could it possibly be otherwise?
     
  8. I find this report a bit puzzling. It says of the Antarctic weather 'Temperatures were moderate, ranging from about +2C to -3C during our two weeks at the Peninsula. Since it was -30C in Toronto for a few days during that time, Antarctica was positively balmy by comparison.'
    So why don't 25% of all 5DII s used outdoors in really cold places like Toronto pack up? What is magic about the -3deg in Antartica that kills cameras as opposed to -3 and below worldwide? I have not heard of reports of a 25% failure rate in cold, wet salty, hot, humid etc so this is a bit of a puzzle.
    Here is my 5D experience,. I have used my 5D in all sorts of environments that were colder (record -14 C in a blizzard , wetter (a day in the spray of a large waterfall) , saltier (a day on a wind blown beach with sand everywhere) than the environment reported here for quite long periods. It has never given me any problems.
    Can any 5D or 5DII users who live in cold / wet / sandy / salty / hunid climates comment?
     
  9. I will be sure to take Nikon on my next trip to Antartica! I recommend everyone planning a trip there do the same.
     
  10. Don't put much merit into that article. First off out of 77 photographers 50% were Canon and almost half of them 5DII. So just by law of averages more Canon's would fail then anything else. Also three of six came back to life, meaning three failed completely. He also stated how his Song A900 worked flawlessly, well he was only one with that camera. So think about this, what if he was only one with a Canon 5DII and there was 26 other people with Sony A900's. Since out of the 26 with 5DII, 20 people had no problems at all, if he had a 5II that performed flawlessly like other 20 photographers did and then 5-6 of the 26 Sony users had problems, what would observation he then. 5DII is not full weather sealed body like 1D series and shouldn't be expected to hold up in any kind of weather. I been shooting with Canon cameras now for about 10 years and never owned a pro series body and never had one problem with weather and I have shot is some pretty cold, drizzly days in Oregon and Utah. When taking care about camera, when shooting outdoors in real cold weather, never bring it directly back into warm humid type climate. Which maybe those 6 did with 5DII bodies.
     
  11. "But I do expect that as the 5DMk2 is the second to top body in the Canon range, it would be as well made and sealed as the D700."
    Point of pedantry, it's actually the third to top, unless canon have dropped the 1D mkIII, which is the same position occupied by the D700.
    I will have a look at the article. I wonder what lenses were used on the 5d mk2s and if they were rated as weather sealed.
    In the meantime I will continue to use my kata camera cover with my apparantly porous 400d/XTi on occasions when theres crap flying around.
    If it's minus 30 I'll either sit in, or use my srt-303. Probably sit in though.
    Maybe its a problem canon have to look at, maybe the author has a brand loyalty themselves.
    Maybe the early adopters should learn to be a bit more patient....
     
  12. The moisture could come in from the creaking CF doors :).
     
  13. For what its worth, I have used my 5D (Mark I) on 5 trips to Africa, shooting for extended periods by the ocean, near waterfalls, on the frigid summit of Kilimanjaro (-18 celsius) , in light rain, in humid rainforests (over 90% humidity), dusty safari tracks and in the Sahara etc.
    I have had it with in Greenland on the Ice Cap, in snow and freezing conditions. Also on 3 trips to the Himalaya to altitudes over 6000 meters in adverse weather as well as countless trips through European and North American forests in all kinds of weather. Of course I try to keep the camera as shielded as possible from the elements but my main priority is to get the shots and the 5D, without weather sealing, has yet to let me down.
    The camera may well be designed for the studio and "gentlemen amateurs" but I have been (much!) less than gentle with the camera and I am happy to say that it has taken the lickin' and keeps on tickin'!
    Based on my experience with the mark I , the lack of weather sealing on the Mark II would not deter me from buying it. However, if I didn't already have 5 digits worth of Canon lenses I would be seriously considering the Nikon D700, mainly for the AF and to use that sweeeeeet 14-24mm 2.8 lens.
     
  14. I used my 40D about 10 times at -25/-30C this winter, flawlessly. I also used it under light rain so many times i couldn't remember. I used it in dusty south Utah, in humid Yellowstone, all flawlessly. Why would 5D II would be different?
    Does it means 100% of 40D can withstand everything, no. It just mean that i won't stay inside, reading internet report and asking myself: Will it fail? I go out take pictures, and that's it. If it fail, i'll go get another one. :)
    Pascal
     
  15. ps. I am guessing that some of these problems came about with people making images out on the deck and then returning back to the warm ship without taking simple precautions against condensation. Antarctica in the summer is no worse than Europe or parts of North America in the winter. The 5D II is now almost through its first winter season and this is the only report of camera failure that I have heard about. It seems that if there were a serious problem with the camera there would be countless reports of failures from Canada to Scandanavia to Northern Japan.
     
  16. Matthew, I wouldn't let "owning 5 digits worth of Canon lenses" stop you from adding D700 and 14-24mm 2.8 to your bag of tools. After much thought and impending Nikon price increases I did just that 3 weeks ago. Turns out my 5D & D700 get along just fine. And that 14-24mm 2.8 is INCREDIBLE. Its really good to know that D700 had zero failures. I'd say Nikon raised the bar with their consumer full frame making it so weather sealed. They certainly raised the bar making the "sharp as primes" 14-24mm 2.8 zoom lens and then selling it for $600 less than 14mm 2.8 II Eos.
    One thing I noticed in the article is failure due to water accumulation between the grip and 5D2. I'd say thats 5D2 weakest point and may be reason for multiple failures. I wonder how many 5D Mark II without an attached grip failed?
     
  17. Didn't luminous-landscape run a similar article a year or two back on 5Ds that was similarly statistically and logically flawed....
    On the other hand it was claimed temperatures were +2 to -3C, fairly routine.
     
  18. There were only 5 nikon cameras used on their 2007 trip & coincidentally NONE failed on that trip too:
    Two trips & No Nikon failures, but theres more canon in use, when they are functioning ;^)
    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/aa-07-worked.shtml
    I think its time canon offers consumer grade full frame thats weathersealed like Nikon does and for less money than 5DII costs. I'd rather have better seals than HD video. And call me crazy, but I like the pop-up flash on D700 and more than adequate 12mp. Oh and a last point, my D700 grip adds more frames per second, from 6fps to 8fps. Theres alot to like about both systems and I think its worthwhile owning both brands.
     
  19. ....oh no, I dropped 20 Canon DSLR's and 20 Nikon DSLR's from the top of a 5 story block of aparments and only 3 Canon's survived, but 4 Nikon's survived....I'd better buy a Nikon then...... :)
     
  20. I'm unfazed, I'll still get my 5D2 ;) I have shot with my humble 400D and humbler Rebel G film camera in pouring rain as well as billowing dust with no failures on either account. Haven't tried shooting in my fridge yet :) Snow in my part of the world is only found about 5,000m above sea level...
     
  21. zml

    zml

    FWIW: before becoming an ornament on the bottom of a reef, my 5D1 - camera with no weather sealing whatsoever - had taken a lot of shooting in all kinds of climates, from hot and humid (very hot and very humid, as in 100F and 100% humidity) to thirty below with frequent transitions between AC vehicles into the rain forest humidity and from the cold into warm interiors, without as much as skipping a beat. Yeah, *X&$#**X&$#**X&$#**X&$#* happens but I'd wait for some analysis and independent confirmation before casting a judgment on 5D2: after some less-then-trustworthy reviews on LL (Leica M8 comes to mind...) I tend to take everything they publish with a truckload of salt.
     
  22. Hopefully 5D Mkll prices will drop due to this article, and I'll be able to buy one sooner :)
     
  23. Colin pondered: "So why don't 25% of all 5DII s used outdoors in really cold places like Toronto pack up? What is magic about the -3deg in Antartica that kills cameras as opposed to -3 and below worldwide? I have not heard of reports of a 25% failure rate in cold, wet salty, hot, humid etc so this is a bit of a puzzle."
    I think it was the milder shooting conditions of the Antarctic -- salt spray, combined with occasional rain to wash the salt into the unsealed 5DII cameras. To me this is a no-brainer. The cracked LCD and loose screw are noteworthy. So is Nikon's fall-apart lens.
    No mention was made of which lenses were mounted on the two Canon 1-series cameras. For instance were non-L (and therefore un-gasketed) lenses used on these cameras? If so, the camera wasn't really sealed, and wet, salty contacts would predictably create error 99 and other intermittent problems.
    Hasselblad also had problems. (Sweedish junk... ech!)
    There's really too little info in this review to make judgements about what really happened, but I strongly suspect salt spray dripping into the circuitry (carried by light rain and condensation). Anyone who shoots with an unsealed camera in those circumstances is asking for trouble, IMO.
     
  24. Damn! Better cancel my trip to Antartca....
     
  25. FWIW: before becoming an ornament on the bottom of a reef, my 5D1 - camera with no weather sealing whatsoever - had taken a lot of shooting in all kinds of climates, from hot and humid (very hot and very humid, as in 100F and 100% humidity) to thirty below with frequent transitions between AC vehicles into the rain forest humidity and from the cold into warm interiors, without as much as skipping a beat.​
    Hmm, maybe the 5D (MKI) is more "weather resistant" than the MKII. My 3 year old 5D lives in humid Honolulu and frequently endured tropical sprinkles and salt air without problems. My only disappointment with the 5D is the LCD. Wish I could transplant one off the 5DII or 50D.
     
  26. Nothing is perfect, and for that matter, the 5dMkII is ALMOST sealed as good as the EOS 1n (read the Canon White Paper, pg33, I believe), which isn't saying much by "modern" standards. Thus, I'm not that shaken up by this.
     
  27. Well lets be fair of course we shouldn't bother those nice people at Canon for weather sealing or an up to date AF on such a cheap camera as the 5D2.
     
  28. There are lies, damned lies and statistics.
    I'd attach very little credibility to anecdotal reports of "tests" done under uncontrolled conditions with no attempt at statistical sampling. Some web authors have made certain statements which have lead readers to erroneous conclusions in the past. Facts are facts, it's the interpretation of that facts that's the tricky part.
    Anything is possible, and I suppose that Canon's adding of additional weather sealing to the 5D MkII could have actually made it more susceptible to water damage, but it seems highly unlikely.
    I think we have to wait and see on this one.
     
  29. A couple of people here have blythely claimed that the 5DII is not weather sealed - this is contradicted by Canon who claim it is and even show exploded diagrams of the seals and claim that it is Water resistant up to 10 mm rain in 3 minutes.
    10 mm rain in 3 minutes! This is a downpour - heavy rain.
    They go on to claim that it is almost as well enviromentally protected as the original EOS-1, a professional level camera.
    Whether it is as effectively sealed as the D700 is another matter. But it is sealed.
    Again, what this really means for the user is also another matter. If it conks out so willingly in cold, humid conditions, it is not a good sign (even if it is 'steamed' in a water-tight bag in a warm cabin).
    Another difference with the 5DII over the earler 5D is the presence of tiny holes for the microphones. These are plenty big enough for water to get in, whether it can get any further I don't know.
    It would be good to here something from Canon.
     
  30. Every now and then someone feels led to point something like this out as proof that one manufacturer is superior in some way to another. And usually it's the "Canon vs. Nikon" story. There have been other threads like this... all of about the same real merit. Anecdotal stories only promote pseudoscience... Who knows maybe the Nikon guys and gals just stayed inside more where it was warm... Show me a test where both brands were tested under laboratory conditions by an impartial third party and I might pay attention... otherwise it's just a story.
     
  31. "A couple of people here have blithely claimed that the 5DII is not weather sealed - this is contradicted by Canon who claim it is"
    Yeah, well Canon would say that - back in the day, Nikon persuaded me to buy a D200 by saying that it would be great at any ISO...
    Now, 5D Mk II reviews - like this one - would beg to differ:
    but it doesn't add any serious level of weather-proofing.​
     
  32. Lindy Stone wrote: "I think its time Canon offers consumer grade full frame thats weathersealed like Nikon does and for less money than 5DII costs."
    And I think it's time that Nikon offers a 20-megapixel-plus camera with 1080p video for less than $2700, like Canon does!
    Not every photographer who wants leading sensor tech wants to shell out $8000, and first in 2005 (more-affordable full-frame 5D ) and then again in 2008 (more-affordable 21-megapixel 5DII ) Canon proved that photographers don't have to pay that much.
    Et tu, Nikon?
     
  33. Lindy : I agree with on this [I think its time canon offers consumer grade full frame thats weathersealed like Nikon does and for less money than 5DII costs. I'd rather have better seals than HD video] the only way that will happen if we all tell canon to get with the program and thats that !
     
  34. Thanks everyone, for a robust series of responses. The usual polarisation of opinion is interspersed with some inciteful comment.
    I had a direct email from a well known Canon photog here in Sydney. He said this:
    "The image quality that one gets, even to A1 size these days from Canon and Nikon (and Sony), are to all intents and purposes as good as one another. The Nikon D700/D3 sensor can match it with Canons larger MP sensor for quality output, and technically we are about to hit the wall in terms of cramming cells into a 35mm frame. The more cells, the smaller and thus more noise. The D3x is only better that the D3 in certain low ISO conditions, like the studio where lighting is perfect. So the focus is now moving to body quality (inc sealing), ergonomics and ease of use. These things are much more challenging from a design point of view and Canon are very sensitive to the apparent advantage Nikon have grabbed with pro's with the D3. They are desperate to trump Nikon, but as Canon is making a loss right now, the development dollars or yen, have been pared back. They also admit that the D700 body is much closer in quality to the D3 than the 5Dmk2 is to the 1D*** range of bodies. But they did not have the time or resources to do both the 5D and the 1D successors at the same time".
    Interesting points he makes. It suggests better made, better designed bodies in the near future. The personal environmental issues I have with sealing etc are heat, dust and sand, not cold and moisture. I think I will hold off my decision to see what Canon do about this.
     
  35. As I recall, when they did this trip last year , they had an even higher failure rate with all Canons including 1Ds Mk 2 & Mk 3 and 1D Mark 3 bodies after a rain storm in the Falklands.
    On the other hand these are really , really extreme conditions.
     
  36. Arguing stats does not mean very much here. Even one single failure means 100% to the particular shooter (few would bring two or more 5D2 bodies). For a life time trip like this, none should take the risk.
     
  37. Michael Reichmann does say that he is awaiting the information from the repair of the failed cameras before trying to figure out what occurred. But, if indeed it is simple moisture or condensation, then maybe one should do as Moose Peterson suggests when bringing a camera in from the cold. He puts his camera gear (Nikon) into a sealed bag as soon as it comes in from the cold. That way the camera can warm up to room temperature without water vapor from the room air condensing on or in its, or the lenses', various parts.
     
  38. Stephen, I don't want to "incite"(!) anything, but don't read too much into what one "pro" says. For one thing, pros often think in terms of publication (page) sizes, and those needs are often surprisingly modest compared to the needs of a photographer who owns a 24-inch inkjet printer. For another, I think your friend is about a year behind in his market analysis. True, a lot of Canon shooters were envious of the D3 when it came out in 2007, but since the 5DII came out in late 2008 I've heard a lot of Nikon shooters say they wish Nikon had a 20-megapixel plus camera that cost a lot less than $8000 (Google "D700x" if you don't believe me). The 5DII is a revolutionary camera considering its price, and there's no indication yet that Nikon will be able to match both its price and output anytime soon.
    I don't think we're about to "hit the limit of how many cells can be crammed into a 35mm frame"; a recent essay by the renowned Harold Merklinger on the website you linked (luminous-landscape) speculates that 35mm-sized sensors will peak at around 35-40 megapixels. If that's true, then the manufacturers - both Canon and Nikon - would do well to focus a lot more on making better lenses than on anything else!
    Different photographers have different needs. If a landscape photographer is willing to get the best lenses and wants to make very very large prints (say, 30x45 inches), there IS a difference between 12 megapixels and 21. I own a 5DII, and I chose it over the D700 (knowing the Nikon had a more rugged body) because ultimate image quality is important to me. I can protect my camera from the elements and sudden temperature changes, but I can't magically turn a 12-megapixel capture into a 21-megapixel one--not without sacrificing some quality. Photographers who disagree or think I have that backwards can forgo the 5DII and pick up a D700 for an amazingly low price.
    The Canon 5DII was probably the most eagerly awaited camera ever, and even almost three months after they started shipping they're still not easy to find and certainly aren't discounted yet. I doubt the experience of six photographers on one Antarctic trip are going to seriously hurt Canon profits.
    So one can disagree with the megapixels-and-video-over-weatherproofing choice embodied in the 5DII, but judging from market demand, clearly Canon was doing something right when they designed it!
     
  39. Without knowing the cause of the failures, the lens' mounted and so on it's impossible to take these statistics seriously. When I had a D200 it failed once, that's 100% of my D200s to that means that it's 100% of all D200s... yea right. The day that I hear that 25% of 5D MkII failing all across the world in a controled test, then i'll pay attention but it could just be that a few people took the cameras inside too quickly, or the lens' used weren't sealed, or some guyu droped his in a puddle of salt water but felt too ashamed to admit it. without that information this is a pretty useless test.
     
  40. From the horse's mouth, and description of Canon repair's response to one owner of two failed 5DMkII's.
    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=31851
     
  41. I just got back from 3 weeks in Hawaii. Only in the blowing rain did I have temporary problems with the 5D2 -- it started taking pictures on its own until I turned it off. Came in from the rain, dried it off and it was fine a few minutes later.
     
  42. We have no way of knowing how any of this equipment was treated, especially in relation to rapid temperature shifts and condensation. Since no interchangeable lens SLR will ever be truly air tight, you have to be cautious moving between environments with significant differences in temperature and humidity (i.e. cabin - outside). With extreme temperature shifts you also need to give the equipment some protection and time to adjust. Leave it sitting in its bag for 20-30 minutes to cool off/warm up more slowly.The reason I bring this up is because of the report of a cracked top 5D2 LCD. Unless he failed to mention a bump against that LCD, that tells me somebody had their camera near a heat source then walked out into the freezing cold without thinking. People have busted windshields by subjecting them to similar temperature shifts! What makes you think your LCDs or lens elements are any stronger?


    I would love to know how many failures were related to the grip. Perhaps that is a weak point people need to be made aware of. Beyond that I wouldn't read too much into this ancedotal evidence. And I wouldn't hesitate to use a 5D mkII in cold or wet environments. I just have a sneaking suspicion that this report, like the last one, involves some people who have not done their homework when it comes to equipment and cold/wet environments. The Nikon name has been lucky only because of numbers. Put enough Nikons in enough hands and somebody will do something stupid, then complain that their "weather sealed" camera failed.
     
  43. I just got back from 3 weeks in Hawaii. Only in the blowing rain did I have temporary problems with the 5D2 -- it started taking pictures on its own until I turned it off. Came in from the rain, dried it off and it was fine a few minutes later.
     
  44. From the horse's mouth, and description of Canon repair's response to one owner of two failed 5DMkII's.
    I read their description. I hate to tell them this, but that didn't happen within a few minutes outdoors in Antarctica with a rain cover over both bodies.
    What's the history of those two bodies? Something happened to them to cause enough internal corrosion that Canon doesn't want to honor the warranty after the repair. And it wasn't a couple minutes of light rain. This is reinforced by the fact that the two bodies are owned by the same couple, suggesting a similar history.
     
  45. Why is it that we hear of 5DII failure only from cameras on this Antartica trip and none others? I am still suspicious of this entire mess. Lets not panic here.
     
  46. "What's the history of those two bodies? Something happened to them to cause enough internal corrosion that Canon doesn't want to honor the warranty after the repair. And it wasn't a couple minutes of light rain. This is reinforced by the fact that the two bodies are owned by the same couple, suggesting a similar history."
    Exactly! Salt water corrodes. Distilled water (and uncontaminated rain water) does not. I think this supports my salt spray getting washed into the camera theory. That would kill ANY camera -- even an unsealed Nikon.
     
  47. and again begs the question of what lenses they were using? Were they weather resistant rated (NOT ALL L SERIES ARE!) and did they have the necessary skylight or uv filter in place to complete the sealing?
    I shot into a force 7 wind with a consumer 70-300IS lens, but with a raincover velcro'd round the lens and a uv in place, no problem at all.
    Even with my EOS 3 (rated weather sealed to the same standard as the 5Dmk2 i.e. near the EOS 1n) and 17-40 lens, I'm not silly about the situations i put my gear in.
     
  48. "Of particular concern were two (EOS 5DMk2) cameras which stopped working while completely protected within Kata rain covers during a light rain ashore. They came back to life the following day though and were mostly fine for the rest of the trip"
    my italics.
    Sounds like cold weather battery failure.
    The spontaniously cracked LCD sounds like a problem moving from antarctic weather to a heated area, a glass tumbler would have done the same.
    One of the terminal failures was shooting video, so an exposed hot cmos sensor meets arctic cold air, hmmm.
    So far thats five out the six accounted for, the other had a mount problem, likely qc issue, can happen with any mass produced object. In antarctic temps they are also well outwith the rated operating temperatures.
    5 of these cases are down to normal limitations of use (batterries fade in the cold) or user error. The other seems like bad luck.
    Hopefully the full report will detail the lenses.
     
  49. Michael reports temps were within a narrow band, "Temperatures were moderate, ranging from about +2C to -3C during our two weeks at the Peninsula." That is 27 degrees Fahrenheit to 36 degrees. Is the camera not supposed to perform in that temperature range? That is balmier than most of the northern half of the United States on a typical winter day. Somehow I have doubts temperature is the culprit.
     
  50. The full report on the trip is here: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/antarctica-2009-worked.shtml
    and there is a section on the entire group's report on "failures " towards the bottom of that page.
     
  51. Sorry I just realized that the OPer had this link in the OP!
     
  52. I think that unless you are planning to take a 5DMkII into similar situations, I wouldn't worry about it. With my D700, I worry more about the lenses than the camera, only because I haven't spent eleventeen hundred dollars for the super nice glass which is weather sealed (but I am about to get a 17-35mm). If you are that concerned about adverse weather conditions, I do recommend the D700 very highly, but only if you do not have a substantial investment in Canon glass, otherwise I would stick with Canon. Besides, if it craps out on you, that's what warranties are for...
     
  53. Based on the comments from the owner of the two failed cameras a battery grip was not used and the failure occured about 1.5 hours into a 2 hour landing on an island. There was a light rain. They were apparently using Kata rain covers.
    I am guessing that they weren't too careful with the covers and rain got to the camera. Both apparently had water in the shutter switch based on the description of the problem (automatic picture taking). Perhaps they put their wet finger directly on the shutter rather than keep the rain cover between the finger and buttom. It would appear that the shutter switch is somewhat vulnerable to water. Additionally keep in mind electricity will accelerate corrosion. Whenever water gets into a camera turn it off and remove the battery quickly to limit the damage.
    Canon should look into this. I am not saying it is a design flaw but it should be reviewed carefully to determine if it is a design flaw, assembly error, or user error of a new product.
    As to the other failures, the cracked LCD on a 1D is a classic example of rapid temperature change. The loose screw in the camera mount is a little unusual. Both probably would not cost a lot to repair. These are probably not a major issue. The Nikon lens that fell apart sounds very strange. I would like to see more information on that failure.
     
  54. Interesting post - the fact that one had a cracked LCD is more about the user than the brand. All the LCDs on top of camera have the same construction - there is nothing special about Canon here which suggests abuse arther than the glass deciding to "spontaneously crack" at around 0C. You will know from your house windows that glass does not spontaneously crack at around freezing - it needs to be hit with something. In terms of the other six failures - hard to say but I assume that there are a lot of 5DIIs in the west of the UK weher it never stops raining. I cannot comment on the rain proofing of the 5DII but mine has worked fine repeatedly in temperatures of -25C being outside for several hours at a time (my kids Ski race!)
     
  55. I just got back from the city, and one of Canon's major dealers. They are talking about it too. Their interpretation of the Warranty Conditions are that if the camera fails after being exposed to extremes of temperatures then the warranty is voidable at their discretion.
    The 0-40C relates to the range of temperatures permitted for recharging the battery.
    On examination of the operating manual that comes with the camera, page 12 lists the caveats under Handling Precautions - Camera Care. There are enough there to get Canon off the hook, and they specifically mention internal corrosion risk and risk of water damage.
    So you guys are experiencing -20C in your winter and we down in OZ are getting +45C in our summer, then Canon have a problem, at least with the battery rechanging, anyway. The dealer said that they would ask Canon for an official position, but quote "Don't hold your breath waiting".
    I'm getting the D700.
     
  56. I'm getting the D700.
    Just be sure to read the manual pages that give the same exact operating specs as the Canon (434) as well as a warning to keep the camera dry (398).
    On a broader note, I think it's time for someone to create a suite of standard tests and ratings for SLRs when it comes to water and weather resistance, and for the manufacturers to use the standard. There's no question regarding the water resistance of an Olympus Stylus Tough P&S because Olympus subjects the camera to standard tests, probably the same ones used to evaluate other equipment like watches. No one actually knows how any of these "sealed" DSLRs compare, so anecdotes substitute for reality.
     
  57. Yeah, Daniel.
    To claim impartiality here: The best focussing system I ever came across was on a Canon EOS 50E with the eye control. It always worked a treat for me...but some people had trouble. The "nicest" camera I ever used was a Nikon FE2 with a Beattie screen...it was a jewel. The safest for war zones was the F4S because if you ran out of bullets you could use it for a weapon, it was so solid.
    I am enjoying a D300 for tricky stuff and a G7 as a point and shoot. I'll probably get the D700. Then I'm set for the foreseeable future.
     
  58. If you already have a Nikon, then your choice is quite easy to make... But then, i'm wondering why this post? I hope it's not another " my father is better than yours" thing...
     
  59. Concerning other reference about extensive usage of the Canon EOS 5D and its good performance despite being a prosumer only camera, since November 2005 I have shot more than 120.000 photos in 5 continents.
    Desert, jungle, waterfalls, snow, sailing, crowds, weddings....... . Nothing has ever stopped me. By the way I' belong to those of goes around with a single body. Twice a year I clean the sensor, that's all.
    I think the Antarctica story needs to be assessed. Probably Canon should ask serial number and owner's names to determine what the reason of the problem was, if a problem really took place at -3 celsius! May be too much alcohol was on board, and it may have caused side effects on photographers.
    All the best to all.
     
  60. Surely this is not a fight beween Canon and Nikon, that's simply a distraction to take the pressure off one or the other. Rather it's a case of letting Canon know we can see how cynical they have been in marketing the 5D2. Other than the size of it's sensor it's altogether 2nd rate. (As Bob Atkins cheerfully reports in his review they need something to offer in the mark 3). It is though more complex than that and the fact remains making the 5D2 into a first rate camera would have cost Canon peanuts and generated much needed goodwill.
     
  61. I agree with Al Durer. We can try to argue this failure rate as much as we want and analyze it to death, the sad fact remains that a high rate of 5D MK2s failed during this trip. I refuse to accept the easy answres - user failures - does that mean that Nikon users are smarter than Canon users - hey I am a Canon user - so that couldn't be it:))
    Canon better wake up and do something about this. It is not clear at all how much weather sealing (if any) there really is on these new 5Ds. I do believe that this report will drive quite a few folks to Nikon - after all, it is not the first time this happened.
     
  62. I am very familiar with electronic reliability. Having very well sealed elctronics is essential to long term reliability, whether it is a camera, calculator, or watch.
    I recommend that everyone buy well sealed cameras.
     
  63. I refuse to accept the easy answres - user failures - does that mean that Nikon users are smarter than Canon users - hey I am a Canon user - so that couldn't be it:))
    There are no answers, easy or otherwise, without knowing the full details, including use prior to Antarctica and care taken while in Antarctica.
    It is not clear at all how much weather sealing (if any) there really is on these new 5Ds.
    http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/eos5dm2/03.html#03
    While I'm firmly in the "we don't know enough to draw any conclusions" camp, I will say this: Canon should just weather seal every button and seam on every body. That can't cost much and is probably worth the marketing and good will.
    But on Reichmann's last trip he complained about 1D class failures. So either Canon really does have shoddy sealing (which doesn't mesh with the many reports of bodies surviving much worse), or Canon users really aren't as smart (the cracked LCD has me wondering), or it's just numbers and luck and next year the Nikon bodies will have more failures.
    I do believe that this report will drive quite a few folks to Nikon
    A Nikon lens fell to pieces. It's going to drive people to Sony ;-)
     
  64. No one has to go to Antartica ... go to your local camera shop and test the AF on the 5D2 and 40D.
     
  65. "Go to your local camera shop and test the AF on the 5D2 and 40D."
    I did that, and I must say, they both work great! I don't know what all of the griping is about AF by others, because I have no complaints at all.
    Thanks for the suggestion, Al!
    "Other than the size of it's sensor the 5DII is altogether second-rate."
    Well, sensor + 1080p video + price compared to Canon's and Nikon's other 20mp-plus cameras =
    one of the most sought-after newly introduced cameras ever.
    I'm guessing Nikon wishes they could match the 5DII's 21mp and video for the same price! I'll be first in line if they do....
     
  66. I would only shoot in salt spray conditions with a camera that I could afford to lose. This has to be one of the fastest tracks to failure than one could encounter in shooting. Although I do not envision myself shooting in salt spray conditions I limited myself to considering only fully weather-sealed bodies when I jumped into DSLRs. If I could only afford the 1D series I would have gotten that instead of the Ds. I am comletely intolerant of failure.
    If I brought my 1Ds on the expedition mentioned and it failed I don't think I'd be condemning Canon, though I would have taken note of the brands without failure.
    Statistics would dictate a larger sampling and more scientific test. However, that does not mean that all non-statistically valid information should always be thrown out or completely ignored. Based on the numbers quoted, I might think twice about a 5DII if I expected to be shooting in these conditions. If you add up all of the non-5dII cameras and look at the failure rate of 5DII vs non-5DII cameras the sample size is not that bad. For my purposes I would guess that there just might be a vulnerability to these conditions in the 5DII that might not be present in the other cameras that did not fail.
     
  67. So, Nikon gear is better weathersealed than Canon. You may not know this, but So is Olympus & Pentax better weather sealed too. If you need to shoot in a wet enviroment then buy the best tool for that job.
    I live in a semi arid dersert climate. I don't need weather sealing most of the time.
    I don't get the idea one must own one brand of imaging equiptment to be brand loyal. I own Canon 5D, Nikon D700 & Pentax K20D. It would be great if the feature I like most could be offered by one manufacturer, but they aren't.
    I have zero regrets adding D700 3 weeks ago to my Canon & Pentax tools. Nice to know Nikon's consumer grade full frame can be used in the rain and cold. I didn't buy it for that, instead to propely use the 14-24mm 2.8. I imagine all better dslrs will come with video option since they all will be equipted with live view. I still think better sealing on a $2700 dslr is more desireable. Heck my $689 Pentax K20D has the weatherseals, can't be that expensive to design in?
    I noticed on Utube people are now shooting video with the D700 even though its not spec'd to do so.
    http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2009/01/how-to-shoot-vi.html
    Its an easy guess ther upcoming D700 upgrade: D800 will shoot quality HD video. The D400 upgrade of D300 is spec'd to include 1080 HD video. In a year maybe less HD video will be on everyones spec sheets. But I still think weatherseals that allow you camera to function are more essential on these expensive cameras. Especially since Canon said water damge is not rountinely covered, but this time they'd repair it for the guy with two bad 5D Mark II
     
  68. it

    it

    I had a 5D die after shooting a wedding in Mexico. Canon Canada said it was "dead" from water damage but refused to explain specifics. I dropped it off with Canon Thailand and they fixed it for $10. I think it's a much tougher camera than many give it credit for. I have 3 and work them very hard.
     
  69. What about sweating? Is that covered in the warranty?
     
  70. I'm guessing Nikon wishes they could match the 5DII's 21mp and video for the same price!
    I don't think it's a question of "can". Nikon just chose a different feature set for the D700. To someone like me, living in Finland where mean temperatures are sub-freezing for almost half of the year, the robust build, weather sealing, reliability in the cold are of very high importance. I am sure they'll eventually make a 24MP "D700X" but if it has the build and sealing, plus the autofocus of the D700 (which is the same as in the D3 and D3X) they sure won't price it the same as the 5D Mk II - why should they?
     
  71. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    I have been to similar Antarctic cruises as well as Arctic cruises. I was in Antarctica in late November, early December. It is summer time down there and around the Antarctica Peninsula, it really isn't all that cold, at least not the area cruise ships visit. Typical temperature is merely around freezing. You have to be quite careless to expose your camera to the elements to cause so many problems.

    When I was there in 1998, I had my Nikon F5, F4 and N8008 with me. None of them had any problems. Well known wildlife photographer Art Wolfe happened to be on part of that same trip. He and quite a few other people had Canon cameras. I wasn't aware that anybody had any camera issues.

    I am surprised by the high number of 5D II bodies given that it is such a new camera. For that kind of wildlife/landscape trips, I would imagine that a lot of Canon users would have 1D/1Ds bodies as well as 40D, 50D cameras.
     
  72. Ahhhh....the constant focus on what the "Internet-Photo-Gear-Review-Hero" is up to now, it just means so much to real photography.....you can tell by the level of idolization of them on the forums.

    Just sit back....close your eyes for a moment...that's right...focus your attention on a time when none of us knew or cared who Reichman, Rockwell, Rorslett, Resnick and other "Gear-Review" internet stars were...

    Take a jaunt back to when even though you could read about gear from Herbert Keppler, you chose instead to read about what Winogrand thought of his journey across the U.S. during the height of the cold war....and that was well before my time.

    Go back to a time when you could photograph someone or something and not have to hear "I don't want that on the internet"....

    Tune out of this gear laden ego show and go back to real photography, the kind that happens in the real world, not the "measure-beater" one on a 15 inch screen.

    Go back to a time and place not long ago when a photograph was called a photograph...not a "Nice Capture"...
    Get out and shoot your 5DII the way you normally would want to and try not to focus too much on what these people publish on the internet.
    You will in turn make better pictures that way, I assure you.
     
  73. Don't get waylaid by the people trying to talk about Nikon. They try to distract from the problem 5D2. Talk about the 5D2. It's second rate and Canon should be told so.
    I
    "Go to your local camera shop and test the AF on the 5D2 and 40D."
    I did that, and I must say, they both work great! I don't know what all of the griping is about AF by others, because I have no complaints at all.​
    The complaint is that the 5D2 is a crippled camera. I have both cameras and the 40D is both faster and is less likely to hunt, simply more accurrate ... better. The 5d2 is a retrograde step. It still suffers from banding even with the firmware. And I'm not making a noise to score any points the 40D is a very good camera ... but it's DX. The 5D2 has FX but is an exercise in cheapness, not for the consummer but for the maker. A let down.
    http://bighugelabs.com/flickr/onblack.php?id=3255508508&bg=white&size=large
     
  74. Al, sorry you got a bad copy of the 5DII; most other owners of the 5DII (including me) aren't saying the things you're saying about your copy. (And yes, I also have a 20D, 40D, 50D, and 1DsII and I disagree with your assessments of the 5DII such as "a letdown," "cheap," "second-rate," and so on.)
    But if it's that bad, for heaven's sake sell it and buy a D700! You should be able to easily unload your 5DII for close to retail value if it's in good shape.
     
  75. A quote from the article:
    "I don't know what conclusions should be drawn from this high percentage of 5D MKII failures. All I can do is report on the facts of the matter. As for the weather during which most of the failures happened, it was no worse than a drizzly day in winter in New York or Berlin. Nothing Antarctic about it at all. "
    Interesting. Are people wandering around on drizzly days in New York or Berlin getting failures?
    If this does turn out to be a real fault, I'm wondering how Canon can get away with claiming that the 5DII is water resistant to 10mm in 3 mins.
    This is equal to 200mm/hr or 8 inches per hour. That' heavy, heavy rain. Something rated to that level of protection should not be failing in drizzle.
    How do these class action suits work?
     
  76. Hi,
    I just picked up a Canon 5D Mark II, after having owned a Mark III for 18 months. I also use the D300 and D700. I will say this for the 5D Mark II:
    (1) overall image quality is great - except when you have to raise the exposure of shadow areas (in an overall properly exposed image). Then the shadows become noisy.
    (2) Body construction is so-so - but should be much better. Of the four cameras mentioned above, the 5D Mark II has the "leanest" construction. It reminds me of the old Nikon D70.
    (3) The omission of bracketing exposures by +/- 2 stops in one stop increments is awful for a camera that is apparently designed for landscape use. Even with the D300, I can quickly snap off 5 exposures in one stop increments - very very helpful in HDR photography.
    If the Mark II were priced at about $2K that might be a fair list price...Overall I think the price of these digital bodies is way too high - the F5 and EOS IV were sub- $2K bodies...and that was just a few years back.
    Just my dos pessos,
    rdc/nyc
     
  77. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    "the F5 and EOS IV were sub- $2K bodies...and that was just a few years back."​
    Robert, I am afraid that your memory is not very accurate. When Nikon introduced the F5 back in 1996, the initial price was $2850. When I finally bought mine in late 1997, it had just dropped to $2300. The F5 didn't drop below $2000 until much later in its product cycle.

    The 5D Mark II is still very early in its product cycle and it has far more electronics than a Nikon F5. If you would like better construction quality and better AF while having 20+MP, there are the Canon EOS 1Ds Mark III and Nikon D3X, at roughly $6500 and $8000 respectively.
    The 5D II is fairly affordable 20MP camera, but it has its limitations. Otherwise, who is going to pay $6500 or more?
     
  78. Someone on another forum (non-photography) went on this trip and also stated that 20-25% of MK2's failed.
    He has a MK2 or another Canon body.
    His words:
    BY THE WAY, 6 out of 25 Canon 5D MkII's FAILED on this trip... Just a note. *

    http://forums.clubsi.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/3424350
     
  79. Just my 2 cents: I was in Cuba, shooting huge waves which hit the shore and both, lens & body end up being fully salted. I was using Nikon D300 + 18-200 VR, and I had no problem. I am also using it outside here Northern Finland ( up to -20c) without any problems. It seems to be able to survive in quite a weather.
    I cannot compare it to canons, as I havent shoot with them but that 6 out of 26 sound quite high.
     
  80. trying not to test my luck here, but my rebel xt and 70-200 were fully doused in salt water about 2months ago when a i was shooting sailboats (boat was alongside talking to the coach when its bow slapped a wave). The camera and lens took a direct hit. I quickly popped out the battery and started wiping the water off. I turned it back on about 2hrs later. As far as i can tell the camera and lens are 100% ok. And thats just a cheap rebel... no sealing at all.
     
  81. Brandt, here's an entry from this guy that pretty much says it all, I think: "This was the landing where the first 5D MkII's fell victim to water/condensation damage. Mine was and still is fine tho because over the entire trip, I was very aware of the water and was always careful to let the camera warm up and dry off before opening any of the doors or removing any lenses. In my opinion, the failures were *mostly* due to operator error by over estimating the conditions the non weather sealed Canon cameras can endure."
     
  82. "Didn't luminous-landscape run a similar article a year or two back on 5Ds that was similarly statistically and logically flawed...."
    I just wanted to chime in to say 26 cameras (the number of 5DIIs present) is actually a reasonbaly large sample size.
    If one was to make the claim that that the probability of failure of any 5D II in Anatarctic conditions is 25 per cent, based on test sample of 26 with 6 failing, the standard error around such a claim is probably about plus or minus 2.
    This suggests that we can be confident that the true probability of failure lies somewhere between about 5 per cent and 50 per cent. Now leaving aside the 50 per cent upper error band, I would say that a probability of 5 per cent or higher failure of a $2600 camera in not particularly demanding weather conditions is a pretty sad indictment on Canon's part. Especially if you consider $500 plastic cameras such as the Pentax K200D are touted, with no weasel words, by their manufacturer as being weather sealed.
    A stats experts should be able to do the exact calculations, but I wanted to dispel the notion that somehow 26 randomly selected 5DII is too small a sample to draw any inferences.
     
  83. Just my 2 cents: I was in Cuba, shooting huge waves which hit the shore and both, lens & body end up being fully salted. I was using Nikon D300 + 18-200 VR, and I had no problem.
    That's nothing. I have an old 10D that has been in similar situations so many times I lost count. I've watched in horror as a wave splashed off a rock and soaked the entire rig on a tripod (splashed me pretty good to). I wasn't afraid of the water so much as I was afraid it would knock everything over. That was a year ago, and everything is still ticking. I did wipe it off right away, but I would have done the same with any camera not in a water proof diving enclosure.
    I shoot around beaches, coves, tide pools, and waves so much and in such crazy weather that I just retired a tripod due to sticky, rusted leg locks.I didn't bother buying a nice, expensive one because I'll ruin it. I got a cheap but sturdy tripod that I know I'll replace in a year.
    Maybe if I ever go to Antarctica I should leave all my new equipment and just take that 10D + 17-40L ;-)
     
  84. Sarah,
    Brandt, here's an entry from this guy that pretty much says it all, I think: "This was the landing where the first 5D MkII's fell victim to water/condensation damage. Mine was and still is fine tho because over the entire trip, I was very aware of the water and was always careful to let the camera warm up and dry off before opening any of the doors or removing any lenses. In my opinion, the failures were *mostly* due to operator error by over estimating the conditions the non weather sealed Canon cameras can endur e."
    So it finally comes out...
    Not letting a camera adjust to temperature/humidity changes, or not drying it off before opening doors/changing lenses, is operator error regardless of the level of weather sealing. I don't care what brand you have or what the manufacturer claimed, you'll ruin a camera by making those mistakes. Even a Nikonos will die if you do something that stupid.
    Canon doesn't need to work on build quality, they need to add a chapter to their manual: "Using your camera in extreme weather situations."
    Unfortunately Reichmann's headline will overwhelm this guy's comment. Watch, his quote won't even slow down this thread. The "failure rate of Canon 5D II's" will be a forum topic of legend for the next year or so. Reichmann should not make statements like this without the full details. And people should know better before taking expensive equipment to Antarctica. I have an old, beat up copy of the Kodak Pocket Guide to 35mm photography which has a chapter that could have saved all six 5D II's. Maybe I should rewrite the chapter and sell $20 PDF's: "Secrets to protecting your equipment in the wild!" I bet I would get sales.
     
  85. Not letting a camera adjust to temperature/humidity changes, or not drying it off before opening doors/changing lenses, is operator error regardless of the level of weather sealing. I don't care what brand you have or what the manufacturer claimed, you'll ruin a camera by making those mistakes. Even a Nikonos will die if you do something that stupid.
    I guess that means that everyone using a Nikon on the boat knew what they were doing in these weather situations. :p
    I could care less either way. I've owned Nikons since my wife bought me my first one and I have nothing against Canon's. I would use them except I began purchasing lenses and a flash for the Nikon.
     
  86. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Unless we know a lot more details about how each one of those 26 DSLRs were used and handled during the trip, those 23%, 25% could be totally meaningless numbers. For example, if most of those cameras that didn't have any problems were mainly backups that never left the ship's cabin while the owners were using the main 1D/1Ds cameras, the actual failure rate could be much higher. Or on the other hand, if 5 out of the 6 that failed were due to some totally unexpected downpour so that the reason for their failure is clearly explainable, the reality may not look nearly as bad.
    I suggest we all avoid all sensational discussion. If those who went on this trip can provide more deails, maybe we can learn something. Otherwise, throwing those "statistics" around is a largely meaningless exercise. I seriously doubt that all 26 cameras in question were used in an identical fashion throughout the trip.
     
  87. Oh good grief. Bla bla bla canons are so unreliable bla bla bla.

    I live in Calgary, where it regularly gets to -20C during the winter. I take my rebel XT (defintely not weather sealed) on my winter mountaineering trips, and have never had a single problem. I also have taken my 40D, 5dmk2 in nasty conditions without any problems.

    Sounds like either these guys are stupid and don't know how to take care of their equipment, or maybe the fact that most people had canon's accounts for the unbalance.

    If you want a camera you can drop in the ocean in antarctica, just go buy a D700. Apparently they are the cat's ass.
    And puppy face... studio and 'gentlemanly plaything' ? Are you purposely trolling, or are you actually that ignorant? Either way it makes you sound like a prick.
     
  88. A picture from one trip. This was taken on day 4 after 3 days of -25C, 100km/h winds and complete whiteout conditions up on the icefields. Not a single problem with my "gentleman amateur" camera doing "gentleman amateur" activities.
    Why do people act like children on this forum? It's just a piece of glass metal and plastic. Who cares? Just enjoy it.
    00SOJN-108900584.jpg
     
  89. Ok, last note...

    Did anyone notice that the 'majority' or 4 of the failures (6 total failures) were due to battery grips? which are not the least bit sealed? One had a cracked LCD (dropped or something possibly?), and another had a jambed on lens due to a loose screw... which could happen to any camera.
    sensationalism anyone?
     
  90. At this point all we are discussing at this point is whether cameras failed , which cameras failed, and how many of which models failed and as there are multiple witnesses than all we can do is accept the facts as they are currently stated: out of this X number of cameras, Y number of cameras failed.There were several well known "Canon Explorers of Light" on this trip: Jeff Schewe, Seth Resnick, John Paul Caponigro, along with Adobe's Thomas Knoll according to
    http://photoshopnews.com/2009/01/05/on-the-road-to-antarctica%E2%80%93trip-3/
    so there was definite plenty of very hard shooting, technically adept, problem solving Canon expertise in the group.
    everything else, including the exaggerated extrapolation that EOS-5D Mark 2's are failure prone, is mere armchair speculation from a great distance.
    I suggest people untwist their knickers for awhile.
     
  91. A point that is perhaps missed is that one of the compromises of any digital camera is that it is much weaker than an old mechanical model. For starters the body has four weak areas - namely the screen, top plate LCD, cable connections and card slot. A Canon F1N or Nikon F3 had none of these weaknesses. In addition electonics is more prone to water damage and corrosion than mechanics. If you really want to get a reliable camera buy one of these - my two F1N's have taken huge abuse over 25 years and still work well. Indeed in very severe weather (e.g -40C) the F1N is still my camera of choice as neither one has yet failed. I am sure Leica users can say similar things about the M4 - M7 which also appear to be fairly bullet proof. In my mind there is a difference in construction between the D3 / D3X and 1D bodies and the 5D / D300 / D700 - and these are better built than cheaper models. If you want to abuse a camera but oine to shoot digital get a 1D / D3 body as they are the best designed for abuse - however you pay the price. I am not sure that the difference in relaiability when exposed to sea water between a 5DII and a D700 is enough to make me treat either body differently. Perhaps the D700 is slightly better when exposed to sea water than the 5D II - the question is "do I really want to test it?" With the low tech mechanical Nikon / Canon film bodies there was less to go wrong - hence I remember Pop photo testing the F1N by evidently holding it under the shower for 20 minutes - who would do that to their $2700 digital body?
    Digital has lots of pros and cons but in my mind one of the cons for digital is that it is less sturdy and reliable than film. I was nervous of the T90 and EOS1 series bodies as they looked more fragile, more complex and were totally reliant on batteries. The Digital bodies are just a further evolution of that trend. Electronics offers lots of convenience and cheap functionality but it needs power and lots more weatherproofing. By it's very design the DSLR is almost impossible to seal so you will have a climate risk. Thus if you expect extreme weather buy the sturdies body you can. What I found interesting about the article was that the P45+ and P65+ evidently did fine. Was this because they are better sealed than the 5DII or perhaps that the users took more care of them. I suspect that it is the latter.
    By the way Stephen battery charging (at least in Canada) is not an issue. While we may go outside in -25C (or colder) we tend to heat our buildings which is where we charge batteries. I have never tried to use an outdoor car plug in (in winter!) to charge any electronics. I feel that Canon (and Nikon) are safe in assuming that most people will not charge batteries in extreme cold - take it from me when it is -40C you don't want to hang around outside waiting for a battery to charge.
     
  92. I think we all need to let Canon respond and see what happens.
    On a sadder note, our country of few people lost 128 dead so far over the weekend, in the worst bushfires in our history. My friend who is a Herald photographer reports no gear failures, Canon or Nikon, in heat measured up to 55C...yes folks, 131F! near the fire...the hottest place on earth this weekend.
    Our ANZAC comrades from NZ came to help (pic) and we are grateful.
    Kia Ora to you all.
    00SOOC-108907984.jpg
     
  93. The Maori come to help.
    00SOOF-108908084.jpg
     
  94. The manual for the 5D MKII clearly states that the camera should not be used in conditions of salt water spray. In case that happens, you should immediately clean the camera with a damp (fresh water) cloth. So it seems that this is clearly a case of user abuse of the cameras.
    That said, the fact is that the other cameras from other brands used in the trip did not have the same failures as the 5D MKII. But I would say that that is expected, after all Nikon makes more rugged mid-class cameras, while Canon reserves the truly rugged build quality for their pro-series cameras.
    Even in the film days, you just had to compare the F5/F100 pair, to the 1N/5 pair. Nikon does not save in construction quality for their nonpro cameras, Canon does save. It has awlays been like that. However, I think that Canon users should expect a bit more build quality from a USD$2700 camera. Especially when cameras are nothing more than computers with lots of electronics, and a lens attached!
    I have bought a 5D MKII, it is my first DSLR. I am used to the feel and build quality of the 1V, but I can not afford that in the Canon world. So the 5D will have to do, and to be honest, I have never had a Canon camera fail on me, either 1 series, or other series. However, the reason I stick with Canon is the lenses I already have, all L series. I have contemplated moving to Nikon or Sony, to maintain the 1V build quality at a cheaper price than Canon, but then I would have to buy the lenses as well.
     
  95. I had a shoot where I was miserably cold here in Florida one March during Bike Week--blowing rain and such. I used two bodies and two lenses--a 20D, a 1D and a 20-35L and 28-70L. The 20D and the 28-70 was under a rain cover and the 1D and 20-35 managed quite well in the drizzle, even though I don't think the lens had a rubber seal.
    Working near the beach, you have to be aware of what salt air and humidity can do. When conditions are bad I carry a towel to keep wiping the equipment down. I've used Canon stuff for more than 30 years and the only failure I've ever had on the road was with a 5D while I was in Puerto Rico--the mirror came loose.
    After reading the report I have to agree with the fellow who thinks the battery handles may be the weak point. But I'm curious as to what the final analysis will be.
     
  96. Charles, There is a recall on the 5D regarding the glue causing the main mirror to come loose. You may want to contact canon. They sent me an email sayin it was a free fix.


    Ellis is right... time to calm down. I don't care if people knock canon, just don't make overblown, sensationalized statements based on one lousy, non-scientific article.
     
  97. pennies have a 80% failure rate compared to nickels. just yesterday, i flipped 5 pennies. 4 out of 5 landed heads when clearly 2.5 would have been the expected number. such unreliable pieces of equipment. i am sure glad i brought my nickel with me, which i flipped once and it landed tails. 100% success there.
    when will the nikon vs canon crap ever end. ;(
     
  98. Here is just my 2 cents worth. First off it is a know fact that Nikon's cameras do have some better weather sealing in their prosumer cameras then Canon does, but even a D700 doesn't have same build quality as say a D3 or Canon 1Ds series camera. I presently own a 5DII as well and I would never think about exposing it to rainy wet weather especially salt water conditions of any kind. I think taking a $2700 camera out in those conditions that isn't totally weathered sealed is asking for trouble and not very bright on the owners part. Yes Canon claims they have weather sealing, which they do, but are not made for those kind of conditions. If you want to shoot in rain, salt water spray, windy conditions with sand and dust you need to get a 1Ds series camera if you are a Canon shooter. Seems Canon has chosen to use less build quality on their prosumer range then Nikon, but have added FF 21MP sensors, HD video and other things to their sub $3000 camera. If build quality is what you really need in your camera for a prosumer range then probably Nikon is better route to go, but your only going to get a 12MP camera in that price range. So it really comes down to what are your needs and features you want in a camera most. Both Nikon and Canon have different ideas on what the market wants and what will sell them the most cameras and you just need to decide which company provides the features that are most important to you.
     
  99. What is really water proof ! take a watch which ! a lot easer to seal but in the end they let water in i have had a few watche's in the past that has got water in them and some was water froof for several meters below the water surface ,is a camera seal rubber ,well rubber will perish after a time ,i would not use a camera in really bad weather if you have to put it under a brolly or cover with a plastic bag !
     
  100. "The manual for the 5D MKII clearly states that the camera should not be used in conditions of salt water spray."
    You are correct, this is a simply a matter abuse and nothing more. I think it pretty much sums up the intelligence of the users, they have obviously not read the manual fully and considering the cost of the cameras, they are morons.
    Now if anyone wants to have a grounded factual debate, perhaps you could discuss the differences in weathersealing between the D700 & 5DMKII.
     
  101. Just face it. It is dissapointing that only some cameras can stand different environmental conditions, especially wet. It is my personal opinion that semi pro and pro camera's at least should be able to, at least to a reasonable extent. This kind of use at this level is therefore normal in my eyes. Heavy use in different conditions should be expected when manufacturing. By the by, I seriously doubt if the cameras were abused as suggested here, maybe just a certain kind of ruggedness was expected by the users, and not without any ground.
    lets lobby for more 'outdoor' cameras? I think these forums can be quite effective :)
     
  102. I investigated aircraft accidents. We refrained from speculating and it sometimes took a year or two to come to conclusions after we were assured we had attained all the facts that were available. Only the press speculates. We didn't in most cases and paid a price when we did. All that's available above is the empirical evidence of failure. There is no cause and effect analysis and not much fact gathering. Arriving at conclusions with such a paucity of facts is pure speculation masked as expert and not so expert opinion. The worst is analysis based upon anecdotal evidence.
     
  103. Hi Steven, I haven't read every one's comment, I read 'till Colin Carron. I agree with Colin. I have the 5DII since the 12th of december and I absolutely love this camera, I had the 5D before and traded it for the 5D mark II.
    I had no problems what so ever and I shot under -40 celsius degrees in january, we had cold records for several days and I took these photos and I had no problems at all:
    http://www.photo.net/photo/8538711
    http://www.photo.net/photo/8538572
    and this one was taken at -25 degrees Celsius:
    http://www.photo.net/photo/8560549
    These people wrote the article probably to blast Canon.
    And yes the 5DII is weather sealed, maybe not as much as the 1D but much more then the 5D. You should read this on DP review and by the way, read the whole review: http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos5dmarkii/ it is the best sites for camera reviews.
    "Construction and environmental seals

    As you can see from the first image below the body is made up of three pieces of magnesium, the only plastic elements being sides and the base. With the advent of the Mark II Canon are finally talking about the dust / water resistance of the body, the second image below shows these seals, Canon's description: "The battery compartment, memory card door, LCD and the camera buttons are all fitted with sealing materials (indicated in red). In addition the adoption of high precision split-level alignment of the magnesium-alloy external covers, high precision dial construction and external rubber grip covers (indicated in green), has improved the camera's dust and water resistance."
    And David Ziser was very thrilled by this camera http://digitalprotalk.blogspot.com/2008/11/its-revelations-monday-8-hours-with.html

    My opinion is that there will always be detractors you must take lightly some of the things that people right or say. My personal experience is very happily conclusive.
    Hope this helps.
     
  104. For an outsider looking in, this thread is sooooo amusing....so many people getting so worked up.
    Some electronic devices fail to work in the Antarctic...are you REALLY surprised? How many users in this thread are taking their gear anywhere near these extreme conditions..ever?....do you really base you buying habits on extreme 'tests' like this?......If you really want robust gear for these conditions...avoid electronics....buy a Nikon F2 or Canon F1....
     
  105. Whether I had a top of the range Nikon, Canon, Pentax or anything else, I would always protect it from the enviromental conditions as best I could. Regardless of what the manual says, surely it's common sense?
    Salt water / moisture is the worst thing in the world when it comes to electronics!
    I think the users of those cameras just took a camera somewhere they shouldn't.
     
  106. Furthermore, LCD screens can break easily anytime without any abuse or user intervention.
    I once witnessed a 2" LCD screen crack in a Mobile Phone which was only a couple of days old and sat on a shelf at the time. No one had used it other than unpacking it and it was fine when opened.
    A bad pressure point in the casing perhaps? or maybe a faulty LCD, who knows, who cares!
     
  107. I love the the "one lousy, unscientific article" bit. Good grief. And please try to not turn this into a Canon vs. anything else discussion.
    Cheers! Let's recap.
    (1) The article is not about reliability. Its one part in a series documenting a trip to Antarctica and the photographic experience. It began with the author's positive impression of the Sony A900.
    (2) It is not a scientific study.
    (3) The cameras were not particularly abused.
    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?s=3aa32eeb139568d6c09ad5575aa85226&showtopic=31851&st=20
    The top of this page documents a 5D2 failure
    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=31851&st=40
     
  108. I have it on very good authority, that though the Canon failure rate was indeed higher, the Canon images were 54% better in terms of lighting, exposure, composition, and creative design (forethought).
    daniel taylor
     
  109. "On a broader note, I think it's time for someone to create a suite of standard tests and ratings for SLRs when it comes to water and weather resistance, and for the manufacturers to use the standard"
    The IP rating for consumer equipment covers water and dust resistance. I have always found it significant that neither Canon or Nikon work to these standards which are used widely for other electronic kit that needs weather resistance. http://www.zen20934.zen.co.uk/photography/Weather Protection.htm
    But as noted, LL have a poor record of flash conclusions in this area so I would not worry too much.
     
  110. Daniel Taylor,
    LoL!
    Daniel Flounders,
    I guess protective hoods to protect against rain spray aren't good enough protection. Clearly the only thing that would offer enough protection in this situation would have been a Pelican case that was left closed and locked inside the ship's cabin.
     
  111. I really don't believe the landscape.com review, i've been using a 350d in new zealand, where it rains every day, and i only had problems when a high wave came into my vessel and wet my camera, but it only last a couple of hours(even for that time i could continue shooting in completly manual mode without lack of image quality), and followed working properly during the rest of travell. And what it's more, i took the 350d with me to Botswana, where dust, extremely teperatures (very hot during the day and very cold at nights) it's a fact, and i hadn`t had any problem. So i think that with a camera like 5dmII there shouldn't be any of those incovenients.
     
  112. Daniel Taylor,
    How can a photo be 54% better than another? Just need a clarification.
    thanks,
    Mark
     
  113. In mid-2005 on a trip from pole to pole (Arctic to Antarctic), photographers shooting with full frame DSLR experienced a similar failure rate (Canon had a 23% failure rate). Nikon did not experience any failures - none, zero, nada. Buy Nikon.
    Yeah, yeah, no Nikon Full frame DSLR in 2005, but hey, no failures. Also, no trip, no photographers. No sense in debating anecdotal evidence.
     
  114. what a long thread! why are canon users always trying to put nikon down and vice versa? why can't we just accept each other's differences and move on. both these manufacturers make adequately good cameras.
     
  115. This is all akin to my friends (male) debating amongst themselves about movie actresses and steadfastly refusing to consider having (hypothetical) intimate encounters with this one or that one based on tabloid headlines espousing their qualities or lack thereof. The realm of hypothetical situations whether realized or not is a realm some often like to ensconce themselves in with their hypothetical money. You just won't find me there. Just as you would never find me trekking up Everest (without supplemental oxygen I might add) with my trio of original Nikon SPs slung around my neck... everyone knows Minolta CLEs would fare better.
     
  116. Starvy, it just happens that some manufacturers have cameras that are more adequately good than others.​
     
  117. For those that claim that the people who say that the users should have been using a 1D camera, please read the report from their previous Arctic trip. Six 1Ds mark II Canons died and at least one 5D. So please keep your condescending comments to your self.
    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/aa-07-worked.shtml
    I wholly agree that there could be a problem with the 5D mark II, it seems to center around the shutter release so far. Maybe there is a flaw, and if so I would expect a recall on the issue. However, I think we need to complain very strenuously for a recall. On the positive side, they recently did have a recall for the 5D which is a 3 year old camera that is no longer listed on their web site. So, hopefully with enough noise on the issue it will get fixed quickly.
    In the interim, I still have a good rain hood and will use it. But, I’m hardly in the rain and the only salt water is about 600 miles away in Utah. So, I’m not too worried.
    Nikons are great, and on both the trips none seemed to have an issue. Which is very good, and is a great selling point. However, there was a failure of a lens, so not perfect. If Canon does not address this issue I could see a lot of people taking this into consideration when they make a decision on what camera to buy. In a couple of years I could see going back to Nikon myself, but right now I’ll probably stick with Canon and hope they do the right thing. Hopefully good competition from Nikon and Sony will force them to do the right thing.
     
  118. I wonder for some years already why no manufacturar profiles itself with and as 'outdoor', I think there is a hughe market for that.
     
  119. Ellis Vener
    Don't be ridiculous, of course a lens hood isn't enough protection from salt spray!
    It doesn't say in the manual, it'll be okay if you use a lens hood does it? So where did that silly idea come from?
    You weren't on that trip by any chance were you!
     
  120. Mr. Flounders,
    If you had actually read the L-L thread instead of knee jerkking in your armchair you would see that I wasn't referring to a lens hood and that at least one of the people who had a 5D Mark 2 fail ws using full rain covers on their cameras.
    To quote that thread -- http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=31851&st=40 :
    • I was using full rain covers on both my 5D and 5DMII, keeping any drops that hit them (you have to look at the histogram somehow) mopped up using a microfiber rag.
    • I was not using grips on either camera, but I did have to break the cameras down to get them back in my camera pack (which went into a waterproof SealLine bag) for travel from the shore to the ship. I did not change lenses while on-land.
    • My mistake was letting the cool cameras get exposed to the air once I got back on the boat (so that I could charge batteries and download my card). Didn't make the mistake again on the trip.
    • Both my 5D and 5DMII had condensation inside and out, only the 5DMII had problems (and the problems happened immediately).
    • It came back to life for the rest of the trip after air-drying all night with everything open plus two stints with a hair-drier in a pillow case.
    • Lots of other people came back on-board and had their cameras out pretty much at once. Only the Canons seemed to have problems with the resulting condensation (odd). I saw many D700 owners shooting in the rain with no cover.
    • Canon 5DMKII manual page 216: Operating conditions 32F-104F (0C-40C), humidity 80% or less. Page 9 - what to do coming in from the cold. 5D manual says same thing. We were within the operating temperature, above operating humidity. Coming inside some of us violated the "put it in a sealed bag and let it warm up" rule.
     
  121. From the Canon site ( 5D )

    Operating Environment
    Working Temperature Range
    32-104&degF/0-40&degC
    Working Humidity Range
    85% or less
     
  122. Had a phone call from the tech manager from Canon's (and Nikon's) biggest outlet here in Australia. Even before this story got the momentum it has, they have been in discussion on this matter. There now appears to be an unofficial, official position:
    1. Canon will not warrant any cameras lower than the 1D series from water and corrosion damage where the Handling/Use caveats in the cameras manuals are ignored.
    2. As its not a pro body the weather sealing on the 5DII is only around the main portals (see pic) and definitely not around the shutter release. There will be no change to this until the next model perhaps. A fix is not available.
    3. Canon are in the process of instructing dealer sales people to ask a prospective customer if their plans to use the camera do include exposure to extreme bad weather, and suggest that a 1D would be better suited.
    I suppose thats all they can do.
    00SOv4-109023684.jpg
     
    • My mistake was letting the cool cameras get exposed to the air once I got back on the boat (so that I could charge batteries and download my card). Didn't make the mistake again on the trip.
    • Both my 5D and 5DMII had condensation inside and out, only the 5DMII had problems (and the problems happened immediately).

    Once again, we now know enough to conclude that the failures were due to mishandling. No camera can reliably take internal condensation. Michael Reichmann posted the failures without the details. Given the details, he shouldn't have bothered to post anything at all. He has created an Internet sensation and myth over nothing but user error. The myth will probably drive some sales to other brands, or to more expensive models, which doesn't really matter that much (except to Canon). But when people make the same stupid mistakes the people on this trip made, and their "weather sealed pro" cameras fail, they will be wondering why.
    • Lots of other people came back on-board and had their cameras out pretty much at once. Only the Canons seemed to have problems with the resulting condensation (odd).

    They got lucky. For now. I guarantee you internal condensation can and will ruin any camera. If not immediately, then later down the road. I can't believe people with this much money and interest invested into photography don't know how to handle their cameras in weather! As a child with my first camera I was taught better than this! I want Micheal Reichmann to hire me for the next trip so that I can lecture people on proper equipment use and protection in extreme environments. Just to make a point, I'll only shoot with Rebel's and D40's, and plastic "consumer" lenses. And still not have a failure.

    I saw many D700 owners shooting in the rain with no cover.

    Which, looking at the Canon seals diagram for the 5D mkII, this person probably could have done. Rain didn't kill the camera. Ignorance about proper handling in regard to condensation did.
     
  123. I really wanted to add a 5D Mark II but its non availabilty made me choose to keep using my two 5D & instead added a D700 & 14-24mm 2.8 to my Canon System last month. Now with the hoopla over the "weathersealing" or lack of weathersealing on its shutter release I'm glad I didn't buy one & I will not add a new one either. I think will this alone drive the resale value down on 5DII. No way I would consider buying a used 5DII now either. I'll now wait for 5D Mark III to replace my 5D when Canon decides to really offer a consumer grade full frame thats properly weathersealed, including the shutter release like Nikon did already with D700.
    I think Canon over sold the weathersealing 5D Mark II specs. No camera maker provides "Ingress Protection Ratings" on their cameras, yet many claim weathersealing until failure occurs. Then its the owner's loss.
    I think Canon would be wise to either delete/modify this statement on the specs sheet in their B&H 5DII marketing ad:
    "The magnesium-alloy chassis of the EOS 5D Mark II ensures the durability of the camera so users can take it on safari or to a press junket and be assured that the camera can take it. In addition the camera body incorporates extensive dust and weatherproofing features including seals and gaskets where body panels and/or camera controls meet. To further keep the imaging sensor free from dust, Canon's EOS Integrated Cleaning System uses ultrasonic vibrations to shake dust particles off of the sensor's low-pass filter each time you power up (or manually when needed); this ensures that your images will be spot free and reduces time needed for image retouching".
    Canon EOS 5D Mark II Digital Camera (Camera Body)

    • 21.1 Megapixel Full-Frame Sensor
    • 3.0" High Resolution LCD Display
    • Live View Mode
    • 1080p Movie Mode
    • Dust & Weather-Resistant
    • Self Cleaning Sensor
    • Broad ISO Range (50-25600)
    • 3.9 fps Burst Mode
     
  124. Lindy wrote: "I think this alone will drive the resale value down on the 5DII. I'll now wait for the 5D Mark III to replace my 5D... "
    I think you're quite mistaken, but a lot of Canon shooters looking for bargain-basement prices on a 21-megapixel camera are hoping you're right! (By the way, that 5DIII you're going to wait for is probably still a couple of years off [mid-2011?], so enjoy the wait.)
    It's been three months since the 5DII started shipping and B&H still can't keep it in stock, so I think it'll be a little longer before the resale value plummets--notwithstanding the earth-shattering ramifications of what six photographers in a group of 77 experienced on one trip!
     
  125. I live on the NE coast of England and spend a lot of my time on the local beaches.
    I routinely use my 40D (and before that, my 30Ds) in pissing-down rain with my non weather-sealed 100-400mm in low temperatures, high winds (which send up the very fine sand and coal dust we've got on our beaches) and salt spray, and I continue to do so , because with some basic care and attention (like tucking the gar into my jacket when things get conditions get really nasty) this kit is pretty tough.
    I have no experience of the 5D Mk II but I'm in no doubt whatsoever that this "issue" is about how these cameras have been used rather than evidence of any particular design flaw.
    I doubt its a coincidence that two of the six 5D Mk IIs that "failed" were owned by a husband and wife team...
     
  126. Check this out....this for Nikon trolls and fanboys only...
    http://alittlenews.wordpress.com/2008/01/24/shooting-in-the-deep-freeze-packers-nfc-championship-part-ii/
    "My photo staff at the Green Bay Press-Gazette was given all brand new Nikon to test out at the game (and possibly the Super Bowl) by Nikon Professional Services. Unfortunately, all the beautiful D3 cameras failed the cold test. Upon kickoff I realized that NEITHER of my D3 camera bodies were working. I had one driving a 400mm lens and the other on my 80-200mm lens. Both cameras starting flashing “err” messages and when they would fire they would fire black images. Some of the images were half-black…similar to when you sync your flash at too high of a shutter speed and part of the shutter curtain casts a shadow on your image"
    :)
     
  127. Bummer!
    ;0) ;0) ;0)
     
  128. The explanation with salt water inside seems the most logical. But this gentleman who says he had two 5D2s and they failed almost at the same time, when he used them more or less for the first time on that trip (and only few times in good weather before) - it does not seem like an abuse or salt spray to me. From the description it does not look like water condensation, because he did not bring the camera from cold weather to warm yet. And salt spray? If the claims about the resistance to rain are correct, how does the salty water gets to the contacts during such a short exposure? And how did the salty water get to the 1Ds on the same trip year ago?
    The repair service saw corrosion and this was most likely the signal for them not to look into it any further and assume abuse. But what if the corrosion was there from production and was not the primary cause of the failure. Could it be, for example, that specific batch of these cameras had some residual of chemicals used for circuit board etching inside that expedited the corrosion?
    I think there is too little facts to draw any reasonable conclusion. For me anyways.
     
  129. The repair service saw corrosion and this was most likely the signal for them not to look into it any further and assume abuse. But what if the corrosion was there from production and was not the primary cause of the failure.
    What if the corrosion was there from past abuse?
     
  130. Nobody knows what these cameras were subjected to prior to the exact day of the failure.
    A few years ago, a Photo.net friend of mine had a couple of D80's fail. It turned out he had very sweaty hands and used canned air to dry off his cameras after using them. This pushed moisture into the camera and over time caused internal corrosion leading to failure.
     
  131. I'll highlight this sentence from my above post in Canon's 5DII specs:
    "In addition the camera body incorporates extensive dust and weatherproofing features including seals and gaskets where body panels and/or camera controls meet."
    Seems they are overselling the "weatherproofing" claim in the specs.
    For me weatherproofing is not a deal killer. I live in a semi arid region so weather proofing isn't a need for me. But if the camera specs continue to say "weatherproof" then some may buy the camera thinking its "weatherproof". I've read of numerous people using 5D in rain without incident. So I am sure my pair of 5D would survive with proper care. And I'd guess my D700 and Pentax K20D survive just fine too. Yet none of them have seen a wet day yet. But its peace of mind I suppose. Maybe Canon should weatherproof the shutter release button on 5DII? I'd think thats a critical component one needs to be able to use in a wet enviroment, no?
     
  132. I wish Nikon would bring back a Nikonos D. They already have lenses for it and there sure is demand for a rugged, weather sealed camera system. Looks like even some Canon owners might be tempted.
     
  133. If Stephen Asprey is correct with his Canon warrenty comments then they need to do more. Around here (the canadian rockies) 0C is not extreme weather - indeed this is a remarkably warm winter day (chinook). If they are not covering there cameras from being outside for 6 months of the year then ther is indeed a problem. The dealers make no mention of this - indeed when I recently bought my 5DII in the Camera store in Calgary I was not informed that by taking it from the store to the car I would lose my warrenty (it was -32C outside). Indeed the dealer explained that it was under warrenty.
    Come on Canon -what is your position on this issue. I have used your cameras for almost 30 years. if exposing them to 0C or below invalidates the warrenty then they are unsuitable for sale in Western Canada and you should withdraw the product line. indeed you will probably lose a product liability case over the issue.
     
  134. I'm with Phil... although i've used my 40D, rebel XT, and now 5Dmk2 in Calgary cold (down to -30C in various cases). I seriously doubt that canon is too concerned about this overblown article.
     
  135. -32C....your laptop and your car would be warranty void too! It was +47C here on the weekend.
    Its not that the 5DMk11 is inferior, its that there is misrepresentation. They have a duty of disclosure at the point of sale to point out the caveats on page 12 of the manual. Thats all. After that its caveat emptor. The Antarctic guys should have used a Nikonos.
    My personal issue is not temperature or moisture, but in our climate, it's dust.
     
  136. What I still find bizarre here is this incredible defence of Canon. It's like "hey don't you say anything negative about my Mommy and Daddy, we're so lucky they give us these things, in fact they're spoiling us and we will support them". I think maybe you should ask yourself why you're defending any camera manufacturer. Maybe what you're trying to say is, "hey I spent all this money of course I'm right". Which is wrong. I dunno for sure but I don't recall the same negative responce when the original 5D came out. But the game has changed since the intro of the 5D. See my view is I'm not moaning, I'm Oliver Twist and am asking for, and was expecting, MORE ... And not just in terms of weather seals. Come on guys can you really say, hands on hearts. that for exactly the same price they couldn't have done better.
     
  137. indeed when I recently bought my 5DII in the Camera store in Calgary I was not informed that by taking it from the store to the car I would lose my warrenty (it was -32C outside).

    Canon doesn't even have a way to determine what temperatures your camera was exposed to. Unless, of course, you handed them a melted camera, or a camera with parts split in two from liquid nitrogen submersion. Who said Canon would void a warranty because you carried your camera to your car on a winter day?

    Canon will not honor the warranty if it's obvious some abuse was involved. If you dunk your camera in a pool to take pictures, consider your warranty void. Guess what? Every other manufacturer has the same exact policy.
     
  138. This has got to be the worst brand bashing thread I have ever seen. Mr Asprey is a nikon shooter and he appears to be almost fanatical in his persuit to bash canon into the trash heap Well don't believe everything you read folks most of it isn't true.and buy whatever camera you like Michael
     
  139. I think maybe you should ask yourself why you're defending any camera manufacturer.

    Because I think it's absurd that somebody can admit to introducing severe condensation into their camera in Antarctica, resulting in failure, and within a few days not only is the 5D mkII deemed a faulty camera, but Canon is supposedly voiding warranties of people who carried their cameras to cars on cold winter days. This thread, and every one like it on the net, is nothing but an adult version of the game kids play where they tell a secret in a circle and see how much it has changed by the time it gets back around to the first person. Next we will have an Internet rumor that Canon 5D mkII bodies melt in rain. Come on people, apply some critical thinking skills!

    Every camera manufacturer needs to submit to some standard testing for weather and water resistance. They need to be clear as to what the test results mean for practical use. And they need to include a clear manual chapter on proper camera care in extreme conditions. Every manufacturer is guilty of failing here. The end result is a group of Antarctic warriors with more money than sense doing stupid things with their cameras.
     
  140. "What I still find bizarre here is this incredible defence of Canon "
    It's nothing of the sort , Al.
    It's two things:
    it's about maintaining an objective view of the issue - we simply don't know the "back story" here, and are not jumping to unfounded conclusions; and
    it's about not whining and using this thread as an excuse to take every opportunity to have yet another pop simply because of some ill-concealed disgruntlement with Canon...
     
  141. There you go you're doing it again. I'm not even sure you know what you're doing. You're praising them at your own expense. Simple question, do you want them to make you better cameras or not? If you do you need to ask for more not settlel for less. Trust me if you worked for these people they would always ask for more. Why shouldn't we. Wake up.
     
  142. Well, there really doesn't have to be any "back story" to it. The cameras were brought to Antarctica in order to take pictures. The cost of the trip is typically very high; no one intentionally abuses their cameras. As far as I could understand, they used rain covers etc.
    Some cameras apparently can function in the conditions (salt spray, rain, humid air, freezing temperatures etc.) reliably while others do not. If you plan to shoot in similar conditions, it makes sense take these reports seriously. In my opinion Michael has always been very positive about Canons and there isn't any reason for him to misrepresent the facts.
    I shoot in sub-freezing conditions near water often and this is very much a consideration for me. I have not had equipment failures due to this even though I haven't always taken precautions to avoid condensation. I use Nikons.
     
  143. Is Canon 5D MII built as good as Canon 5D body ?
     
  144. Yes, I'd say it's at least as good.
     
  145. I heard from a reliable source about 6 posts up that the 5dmk2 melts in the rain.
     
  146. I seem to recall another incident like this one...something about
    "THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!"
    This thread reaffirms my belief that 'Reality TV" is the way of the future!
     
  147. There seem to be two contentions from Canon that don't sit together too well.
    1. In addition the camera body incorporates extensive dust and weatherproofing features including seals and gaskets where body panels and/or camera controls meet.
    2. As its not a pro body the weather sealing on the 5DII is only around the main portals (see pic) and definitely not around the shutter release. There will be no change to this until the next model perhaps. A fix is not available.
    Now I would have thought that if a camera is weathersealed, then the shutter release is a pretty important place to seal. Wet from fingers, if not direct rain, will fairly easily penetrate there, if it is not sealed. Furthermore, how can the 5DII withstand 10mm/3 mins of rain, as Canon claims it can, if the shutter release is not sealed?
    Puzzled.
     
  148. Simple google search yielded me nikon seals on D700. Looks like Nikon has atleast two seals on shutter release and Canon has None.
    http://www.nikond700.com/nikon-d700-review/photos-of-the-d700/
    5D mark II shutter release is likely a new design since it activates HD video mode right? Do you have to keep it depressed for video?
    I love my canon systems Both Eos & FD, and I've been called a "canon fanboy" numerous times. BUT I will not buy a 5DII since Canon markets it, sells it as weatherproof and then say it isn't when repair time comes along. And again I never subject my cameras and lenses to moisture but weathersealing is a selling point.
    Maybe "weatherproof" to Nikon means something different to Nikon? You know since they show two gaskets at shutter release and canon showns zero gaskets at shutter release.
    I'll restate nobody's cameras and lenses that i know of are ever subjected to the officially recognized "Ingress Protection Ratings" for electronic products, yet camera makers claim weather proof & water resistence without the proper certification proving "weatherproof" their marketing statements. I read Olympus dunked tested 3 E3 while powered on and two of three survived full immersion in water. So dslr weathersealing is possible using todays technolgy 66% of the time using one limited test from 2008.
     
  149. Continuing the support for canon outdoors doing well, I've had my 30D out in some decenly bad weather. Last month I had my 30D up next a waterfall and had the spray litterally freeze a few of bottoms stuck and coat part of it's body also in ice. Besides not being use my direct print button (o dear!) and the menu button, it worked fine.
     
  150. This thread has run its course. Anything sensible to say has been said, plus a lot of stuff that isn't sensible. Time to shut it down.
     

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