2.4ghz slaves that dont interrupt ttl

Discussion in 'Nikon' started by robert_stig, Aug 25, 2013.

  1. I need help please.
    doing weddings, I use 2 light stands with a speedlight on each for fill. currently the gear is d3/d300/d600 with sb800 or yongnuo 568 (doesnt matter for me) light stand fitted flashes are SB28 or another 568 I have 2 sets of yongnuo 603n slaves. the off camera flashes both sit in one and that part is ok. they fire in manual. thats ok my problem is the camera/603/ and on 603 flash (SB800/568). when you mount a 603 on the flash shoe and a flash on that, it interrupts the ttl communication between the camera and flash. the 603 does have a pc connection and 2.5mm connection but it will not fire the of camera flashes. I simply want a slave that will run at 2.4ghz to just fire off the off camera flashes. I dont want it to kill my camera/hot shoe flash ttl communication. I have a wein optic slave from years ago but the problem is everyone can fire them off and I must have it available to fire instead of it recycling cause someone fired it with thei iphone. the problem is every shot is burned if I have the flash head pointed down and looks "decent" with the flash head bounced. why is this such a problem. dont want the yongnuo 622n. doesnt interest me. dont need its features. I connected the 603 with sync cables(connected it to the flash pc and 10 pin, as well as camera pc/10 but it wont fire the other flashes) but all I want is a damn slave that will be coded (radio) that will fire off camera flashes. so simple yet so complicated. and not only that but I dont want the 603 on my camera hot shoe with an expensive flash on it because there is no locking ring at the base and the flash did fall out. thank god I was quick enough to catch it. what were yongnuo thinking...
  2. on another note can someone tell me how I add empty lines to my text. its just one big annoying paragraph.
    needs some aesthetics so can read better. thank you.
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  4. sweet thank you so much!
  5. Robert, is this just a rant, or is there a question about flash and/or triggers in there somewhere?
    I'm finding it difficult to pick out exactly what your setup is, since you mention 3 different models of flash. Am I correct in assuming that the off-camera flashes are the SB-28 and YN568, with the SB-800 on top of the TX in the hotshoe? If so, then i-TTL is irrelevant and just won't work properly. As soon as you add a non-i-TTL flash like the SB-28 into the mix, then you have to go fully manual or rely on Auto-Aperture exposure. The reason being that any light from the SB-28 can't be taken into account by the camera's pre-flash i-TTL metering. With the result of overexposure - such as you're seeing.
    I don't think those YN603 triggers communicate the i-TTL signals either. So effectively you've got two manual or AA only off-camera flashes trying to work with one on-camera i-TTL flash. That's a non-starter.
    PS. Two presses of the "Enter" key will get you a single line-feed paragraph break in your post.
  6. no rant.
    light stands hold an sb28 and another has a 568. they both have a 603 connected. thats fine. not an issue.
    my problem is the camera/603/hot shoe flash. I dont want to connect the 603 in the hot shoe. why?
    1-because it kills the ttl connection between camera and the flash that sits in the hot shoe.
    2-no locking wheel to securely fasten the 603/flash to the camera and it has slipped out before. not taking a chance that a $15 product will break my $200+ product.
    but from what I was told from yongnuo, the 603 wont work (2 lights light up on the slaves) unless connected to the hot shoe. I also tried to connect to the flash pc sync/10 pin with cable and to the body as well (only 1 light comes up) and it just wont fire the off camera flashes.
    I dont need them to transmit ittl/or ttl. I just want a slave that will allow the flash and camera to pass ttl between them. the 603 does not allow this info to pass between them.
    I simply want a 2.4 slave that will fire another flash in M mode and I want my hot shoe flash to continue to fire at ttl. not sure why thats difficult.
    the 622n passes ttl info to the off camera flash and it will adjust on the fly to adjust to give the right amount of light. I dont care for it to adjust on the fly. let it fire in M all day long for all I care. but I dont want it to stop my camera and hot shoe flash to fire in ttl.
    and when I say ittl/ttl I mean to balance the flash exposure. the person im shooting is in front of me. the flash will caculate the amount of light and shoot it as it calculated. the off camera flashes shoot their 1/8 power (which I usually set) as regular
    but the camera flash should balance its amount and not burn out every picture like it has been doing. some subjects are closer in weddings and some are further and it doesnt properly balance the light out.
    but bottom line, how do I connect the 603 without losing my camera/ ttl hot shoe flash connection, cause when I mount the 603 in the camera hot shoe, the flash on top will not properly run in ttl.
  7. Robert when I was shopping for triggers I also discovered that the 603s don't pass the full TTL signal to a flash mounted on top. It's to do with the wiring in the unit. From what I remember your only options are to either use the pc sync socket on the camera to trigger the 603, or change to different triggers.
    I ended up buying the Phottix Stratos 2s, which do pass TTL and have proven to be bombproof. And the switchable groups on the stratos are very handy for disabling certain flashes on the go.
  8. Wayne thanks for the reply.
    I didnt know it doesnt pass ttl/ittl info through the hot shoe but thought I could use it connected via
    pc sync/10pin connection. but no. you cant do that either.
    but I didnt I dont understand why they wouldnt think it through when designing it. its especially obvious they didnt think it through because making a cheap plasticky slave that needs to hold a heavy flash without a locking ring shows they did half the job.
    I wish I could use my wein optic slaves but so many compact cameras and smartphones at weddings fire them off.
    I would love to just velcro the 603 to the flash head (on top) but it wont happen. because I tried connecting the 603 to the flash pc sync/10 pin connection but to no avail. it wont work with the body sync connections either btw. only 1 light comes up. the second I slip it in the camera flash shoe, both light come up.
    so a stupid design nonetheless. it wont let ttl through, has no locking wheel, and it wont let you use it off the flash shoe as well. if I would have know, I would never buy them. they are releasing a mark II version next week. lets see if ti fixed these issues.
    the stratos costs more than the 622n and I would get that first cause I can do FP/hss which I could use outdoors for my BG shots. and a 622 mark II is to be announced shortly as well.
  9. Your SB-28 is TTL system. Your cameras are all iTTL system. They don't speak to each other. Either go with all Einstein monolights or modern Nikon flash such as SB-910. Also, I'm not sure you can use both the camera sync port and the flash shoe at the same time. I usually connect to the sync port on the flash, but then again I only use manual flash control. It just works easier for me and I get a lot more range out of my system.
    Kent in SD
  10. Kent
    you are a bit off with the topic. the flashes are not the issue. so isnt the body. thanks.
  11. Reread (it was very confusing.) The iTTL info is sent via infrared light, NOT radio wave. That's why it's range is so short. The infrared signal comes directly from the camera body. There are triggers (such as Radio Popper) that pick up the infrared iTTL signal and convert it to radio, but I have avoided them as they are expensive and I need a LOT more range than what they give.
    Kent in SD
  12. I might be miss-interpreting your question, but I use these Calmet triggers which retain full iTTL capability to the on camera flash whilst triggering remote flashes in manual.
    You can switch off the transmitter and the on-camera flash will still work in iTTL (without the other flashes firing of course). It has a basic but acceptable locking ring to secure it to the camera hotshoe, and accepts the locking pin on my SB700; so nothing can fall off. They also use AAAs which is handy.
    I am not a professional, so can't testify to how they will stand up to hard use, but they are very reasonably priced; so carrying spares shouldn't be a problem.
  13. OK. Let's clear a few things up for you Robert:
    1) You can't fire a flash via the Nikon 10 pin accessory socket. There's just no pin or signal to do that, and none of the flash i-TTL data pass through the 10 pin socket either. What can be done via the 10 pin socket is to activate AF, fire the shutter, and to pass GPS data into the camera. In other words the 10 pin socket houses nearly all input signals into the camera with no data coming out. It also supplies 2 power pins and that's about it.
    If a 10 pin connector cable is supplied with the YN-603 trigger, it's for the purpose of firing the camera shutter and nothing else.
    2) The coaxial P-C flash-trigger socket will fire whenever the hotshoe fires. AFAIK there are no exceptions to this rule, so if a flash in the hotshoe fires, then any flash connected to the P-C socket will also fire. This means that any trigger transmitter connected to the P-C socket will fire in synch with the hotshoe. However, it won't fire on or transmit any i-TTL pre-flashes.
    3) An i-TTL flash won't be able to "see" the light from other non-i-TTL (manual) flashes for metering purposes, and therefore the exposure of the i-TTL flash won't be correctly balanced with any manual flashes. Most of the time this will result in overexposure from the i-TTL flash.
    I understand why you don't want to interpose the YN trigger between the camera and the speedlight, and this only leaves you a few options: To connect the trigger to the camera's P-C socket; or to use an i-TTL extender cable to split the hotshoe between the speedlight and the trigger. Third option is to buy another type of trigger.
    FWIW, the type of trigger that I use most often is shown below. These are simple, cheap and IME reliable. They also don't confuse the issue by doubling as shutter remotes. As you can see, the transmitter module has both a hotshoe connector and P-C socket cable supplied. The transmitter is light enough to just dangle from the camera P-C socket and leave the hotshoe free.
    One other thing is that they're not on the 2.4GHz frequency band, which I consider an added advantage. 2.4GHz is overcrowded with WiFi gadgets and has a deliberately limited range that's easily stopped by walls and other obstructions.
  14. Kent. thanks again.
    Im trying as hard as I can to try and explain it but to no avail.
    I dont care for the ittl to be transmitted at all. all I want is for the slave to fire off my other flashes that are in manual mode. nothing more. but also I dont want the slave to ruin my ittl/ttl communication between my camera and the flash thats sits on it. and thats the problem. because when I have the 603 on the camera hot shoe, its firing the off camera flash just fine. but its ruining my ttl with the camera flash as well.
    problem is :
    a-there is no locking wheel on the 603 and my flash fell off once and I dont want to take the chance on that again
    2-it doesnt pass ttl information between the flash that sits on it above, and the body its sitting in.
    here's a video. hope it helps.
    those Calumet slaves are $75 and really, for that price I would just get the yongnuo 622n that also offer HSS capability. I may just go with 2 sets of 622 and be done with it. but imo I think its too much money for what I need it to do. I just want to fire flashes in manual mode.
    Rodeo Joe!
    Thanks for the 10 pin explanation. never used that connection before. but the slaves came with a 10 pin to 2.5mm cable so figured they could be fired from there.
    regarding number 2. in the video I have above, I did connect the pc side of the flash to the 2.5mm jack of the 603 and although in the video I did not show it, it will not fire the 603 at all. and this true not matter if I connect the other side to the body. no matter if I connect the cable to the pc or 2.5mm of the 603 and the other side to the pc of the camera or the flash-nothing!
    someone told me if I use a pixel tf-322 head. I can use the pc connection on it to connect it to the 603 and it will work fine, but im tired of buying little dumb thing to make this work. I dont want to even try. and I dont trust stability with all these things in the hot shoe and it having to support the flash.
    but for curiosity I mounted an Nikon sc-17 on the body and the 603 in the hot shoe and that did work. problem is there is no way then to mount the flash on the body then.
    regarding these ishoot slaves you posted. what kind of range do these have? prices? they look ok to me.how will they handle the crazy lighting system and smoke the Dj runs?
    all I want is a slave system that no other person can fire with their flash. the DJ flicker strobe on the dance floor can fire the wein, and so can other peoples tiny smartphone flash fires as well and it just stresses the speedlights. it must be reliable though.
    tried using cls feature with 568/800 but its not reliable. I guess the distance, or where I was standing vs the off camera flash doesnt fire them reliably enough. I only got a 50% hit rate. even with the "eye" pointed to the dance floor.
    thank you everyone for you help.
  15. "all I want is a slave system that no other person can fire with their flash. the DJ flicker strobe on the dance floor can fire the wein, and so can other peoples tiny smartphone flash fires as well and it just stresses the speedlights. it must be reliable though."​
    You'd need radio trigger wireless to handle that type of difficult situation. I'm still using old tech non-TTL Pocket Wizards, but the latest generation of PW and other more affordable brands of radio triggers are far more capable if you want to retain some TTL capabilities.
    If the flash units are in fixed locations and the flash-to-subject distance is fixed, you might get more consistent results with manual flash settings. Adjust the camera lens aperture a bit to accommodate slight variations. Works for me, but I don't have any alternative since the old Pocket Wizards are non-TTL anyway.
  16. I dont care for ttl/ittl for my off camera flashes. they are in manual mode. put out the same power all night. thats fine. this is not a difficult situation AT ALL. this is something so basic. I didnt ask for a slave to adjust the power remotely. I didnt ask for ttl firing in the off camera flash. I simply want them fired in the most simplest way. manual power. the same power output every shot. think of monolights. my camera though needs to have its ittl/hot shoe flash communicate between them. the slaves CANNOT INTERUPT THAT. and the 603 doesnt have a ttl pass through hot shoe and its making it a nightmare for proper exposure.
    the wein optical slaves do this perfectly. they simply fired the off camera flashes, and didnt bother my camera/hot shoe marriage. when I put the 603 on the hot shoe then my problem comes in. its like a mistress coming in and ruining a beautiful marriage;)
    problem is the way they are designed, any flash triggers them. with 2.4ghz, another flash wont fire them. they have their frequency and channel and only those with the same can fire them. again, dont care for the slaves to work in ttl. only manual. I simply dont want the stupid slave to bother my camera/hot shoe flash from having its communication broken (ittl/ttl)
    not EVER buying pocketwizard/sekonic products. ever. not giving them any money. I dont like that company. sorry if youre a fan.
  17. Robert, those iShoot slaves work by radio. There's no way that a flickering strobe or smoke will upset them. They're about as cheap as they come and work at a lower frequency than 2.4GHz. I reckon redundancy beats absolute reliability, so I'd rather have something that's cheap enough to carry spares of and is easily replaceable should the need arise.
    I've tested those slaves around and outside my house (a fairly busy suburban area) and get reliable operation at least two rooms away and 40 to 50 yards down the street outdoors. Parked cars seem to block the signal more than anything else, but I guess there aren't usually too many of those in a dance hall! In clear open country they'll easily trigger at over 100 yards distance. Some people claim you can enhance their performance by adding an antenna, but I've never felt the need to mess with them.
    I see from your video that the YN603 has a P-C socket on the back. Does it fire from the camera if you connect it with the camera's P-C socket via a male to male connector? And have you checked out your camera's P-C socket to make sure it's working properly. Again you'll need a male-to-male cable to connect it to the SB-28 - don't know about the YN568.
    I also think you're wasting your time trying to use the 2.5mm jack socket. As far as I can tell, that's simply for firing a camera shutter and won't work with a flash in any way.
  18. Rodeo Joe!
    Yes, Radio is great. if you tell me 40-50 yards thats fine for me. yes will order a spare set to sit in my bag JIC.
    in the event hall I can be between 5-50 feet away from the off camera flashes, depending where im shooting from. so thats good for me.
    yes the 603 has a pc connection on it and yes I have tried to connect it using a ~ male pc/male pc~ cable I tried with it, but it would not fire. whether connected to the flash or the body. tried it on D3 and D300.Sb800 or SB28. nothing.
    seems pretty weird to me you cant fire a slave if it offers a pc connection on the body. my wein slaves:
    have a pc connection which I use and velcro that to the flash. and it has a monolight plug on the end as well. both connections work well. and its so simple and works so well. but this 603 is really quite the garbage.
    will look on ebay at the ishoot again. im also waiting to see what the 603 MK2 (announced in a week) will have solutions and Im reading reviews on this as well:
  19. at the moment my options are

    -ishoot slaves
    -603 MKII
    -622n (which would cost me the most at $160 for 2 sets)
    -upcoming 603TX transmitter which give on the fly power adjustment for the off camera flash.
    -and ok looking commlite/ojecoco 430

    I may have to get 2 different sets. 1 complete set (2tx/2rx)for firing indoor manual off camera flash and another set (1 tx/1rx) for my outdoor location bride and groom pictures.
  20. yesterday I did a wedding and my 568 fell to the floor cause the 603 doesnt have a locking foot. one time, I caught it when it feel out, yesterday, I wasnt so lucky, the front red plastic cover feel off, the head opened up and I have to use gaffers tape to sandwich it closed so the head can be aimed. I am pissed.

    who thought making a slave with no locking foot and no TTL pass through shoe was a good idea. will not be buying a yongnuo product again.

    I ordered 3 sets of commlite 430 each set (TX/RX) costed me $24 shipped. I think ill order another for backup. now im waiting for someone to make a ttl slave set so I dont have to buy a 622n from that bcompany. too much is too much. I just bought the flash and already its broken because of a simple design flaw. man this is not cool.

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