1D X - Why all the delays?

Discussion in 'Canon EOS' started by yakim_peled|1, Jun 8, 2012.

  1. http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-11678-12675
    Guys, I'm lost here. Please help me figure this out.
    At first I thought that they were trying to avoid another 1D3 fiasco. Superb. They learn from past mistakes. In my heart I applauded them. But then, the 5D3 was released. Sans the sensor it is 99% a 1D X minus the grip. The 5D3 is hugely successful and with no major (or even minor) flaws. so that assumption is out the window.
    So, is it the sensor? Canon is one of the biggest manufacturers of sensors and it has huge experience in this area.
    So what is it?
    Of course, I know that no one actually knows something but I'd welcome some educated guesses. TIA.
    Happy shooting,
    Yakim.
     
  2. Probably Papa Canon is thinkin' "no big rush as 99.9% of the shooters out there can't afford it or are too wimpy to hump it 'round town."
     
  3. zml

    zml

    > can't afford it or
    The 1Dx is not for those who cannot afford it...There is a huge market out there for that camera and it doesn't include the 99.99% of people who complaint publicly that the camera is delayed. And the size does matter, you know :)
    Seriously, the delay (9 months since the announcement and counting) and the lack of other pro-oriented pieces (hi-res body for example) in their current lineup is puzzling to the point of being worrisome. I for one have gotten the D800 and on old Nikkor macro, "micro" as they call it, lens and couldn't be happier in the studio: it is a great, thoughtfully designed and well executed camera. Still, the ergos suck for anyone coming from the Canon land. :)
     
  4. Peter, always a pleasure to read your thoughts. :)
    Happy shooting,
    Yakim.
     
  5. I find it absolutely amazing that this is delayed, and that Canon has no pro studio camera to sell. Could it be that the effects of the tsunami and subsequent nuclear disaster still has vendors reeling? Surely corporate Canon must have the money to pull this off, but money does not help if key vendors are still out of commission.
     
  6. I have no idea for the reason of the delay but the last paragraph about the Olympics should tell you that you're going to be waiting longer than July for your camera if you're a normal photographer. I know that in 2008 Olympics there were lots of posts comparing the number of Nikon vs. Canon bodies but I'd say the vast majority of Canon shooters at the Olympics will be using older bodies. Assuming they ship in July, 3 weeks is not enough to know and trust everything about the camera. Regarding priority, Nikon has done the same thing with the D4/D800 by giving NPS members priority even though they pay the same as regular consumers.
     
  7. zml

    zml

    Walt: Canon have already shipped pre-production bodies to many (no idea how many) news/sports outlets with heavy presence at the Olympics. The catch is that they can't talk about it and post any pictures so it sort of defeats the purpose of using the camera at the Olympics.
    In contrast, Canon have developed and actually started selling a slew of high end lenses (not only the teles) but I wonder to what cameras are we going to attach these lenses to? Rebeles..? I, for one, still use 1Ds3 and 1D4 (and my personal 1Ds3 is over 4 years old...) It is a pretty messy situation (some blame it on the geriatric - both in age and thinking- management of Canon Japan and apparently on some spectacular sensor development failures within Canon) but it ain't look good from the user's perspective. I for one blame the persistent and unnecessary IMO drive to include video in every DSLR for the Canon's failures, but that's my opinion. OTOH low and - to a degree - midrange bodies are doing great so they keep making money without any high end bodies in the lineup.
     
  8. I just do not understand why a company as large as Canon cannot be more forthcoming with its loyal customers and provide the reason(s) for the delay. Maybe Asian ego?
     
  9. Spearhead

    Spearhead Moderator

    I for one blame the persistent and unnecessary IMO drive to include video in every DSLR for the Canon's failures​

    That's very much from the amateur perspective.

    Every press conference and media event I have worked for the last couple years has had numerous people using Canon DSLRs for video. The local rental shop I use, which caters almost exclusively to pros, told me the 5D2s go out almost exclusively for video. I did stills at a music video shoot recently and the whole shoot was done with a 5D2. Not putting video into high end cameras right now would be a huge mistake for Canon. This usage impacts the still market also, as there are often teams of two with the same equipment (except for the stabilizers, mics, etc) working events.
     
  10. I expect that it's in part a lack of corporate focus on the 1Dx. The 5D3 fills a significant niche, but they built the 1Dx to appeal to a different market.
    Currently, Canon no longer has a competitive studio still unit, and that, I expect, is what has led to some confusing and re prioritization at the top. I think that the D800 came as much of a shock to them as it did I. The combination of such a high resolution and miles beyond DR makes it the one camera on the market to consider for most studio shooters. (everyone not shooting MF anyway)
    If Canon had a high MP sensor in the pipeline, it's development just got bumped to the TOP of the R&D list, if it didn't before the D800 came out, it does now. And you'd better believe they are FINALLY addressing the DR limitations of their current sensors (as the 5D3 scored half a stop of improvement...over the 5D!)
    To be honest, I think they may be trying to cram some extra kutzzpa into the 1Dx... (though I don't know how...) ... If they can do it w/ software (w/ maybe a highDR mode to give a practical DR boost?), It may be a significant improvement in the overall 'flagship'...
    For all those studio and portraiture shooters, things like FPS improvements, & AF improvements (Most of the time, I only need one point - not 61, or 45, or 138?), mean exactly... zip. And so, to them at least, the 5D3 is essentially the same camera as the 5D2, and the 1Dx is a downgrade over the 1Ds3.
    I haven't pulled the trigger on buying a D800 yet, but probably will. And, even though I've never been in the market for a 1Dx (nor really want to be ;-) ), I still haven't ever shot with a modern piece of nikon hardware... so me considering seriously buying a D800 instead of a 5D3 (or two in my case) ... and I'm sure I'm not unique ... that has got to be causing some sleepless nights in Canon land. - and perhaps impacting the delivery of 1Dxs in the process.
     
  11. If you look at Canon's line up it was clear that most DSLR models needed to be replaced this year. That probably puts a lot of stress on the organisation. If you have a look at the current bodies and the "normal" product life cycle of these there are still a few bodies ready for replacement: 60D, 5DII (mark III is in a different class pricewise), maybe the 7D. And we're waiting for a MILC/EVIL camera. Canon has been plagued by some quality issues so I guess they want to be absolutely sure about the new models, especially the flagship 1Dx.
    But o.k., there are still a few months to go before next Photokina :)
     
  12. zml

    zml

    OK, update from Warsaw, Poland: there apparently were several 1Dx cameras at the opening game (Poland-Greece, 1:1) of the European Soccer Championship in Warsaw. Keep in mind that this is a second hand info, there are (yet?) no pictures of the actual cameras out in the wild and no word whether the preproduction or production bodies were used.
     
  13. My understanding is there are no production 1D-X bodies out there, hence no full reviews. I have no idea what the difference is (will be) between production and pre-production samples, but I assume if Canon are sending out pre-production cameras for the Olympics then they must be very close to production quality. The last thing Canon wants are a bunch of the world's leading sports photographers getting screwed up images at the Olympics from cameras that they haven't gotten all the bugs out of. That would ruin their reputation for a long time.
    A "flagship" camera (which is what Canon call the 1D-X) isn't much of a flagship if it's actually still sitting in dry dock. The last official word I heard from Canon was "mid-June" for shipping of production cameras to start.
    Canon seem to be painting themselves into a corner with the new models. The T4i looks like a better deal then the 60D at the moment so there are very few reasons to buy a 60D now. That means either they drop the XXD line of cameras (unlikely?) or they update to to a 70D. If they do it's obviously going to have most of what the 7D and T4i have, so there goes the 7D. Then they have to bring out the 7D MkII.
    Plus they're already years behind on the MILC camera front, so that must be on the front burner - and they still haven't gotten the 200-400/4L IS Extender in production.
    Things must be pretty busy over there.
    There's always Nikon of course. I have had a chance to play briefly with the D800 and it's a pretty sweet camera. Pity it won't take my Canon lenses...
     
  14. The delay could be due to many issues... the AF sensor is the same as on the 5D Mark III, but the 1Dx has a completely different processor attached to it (a Digic 4), plus it has 2 Digic 5 processors, so there may be any number of issues with firmware, new AF algorithms, perhaps with camera physically overheating from running 3 processors inside, of course there may be issues with sensor development (although the sensor didn't seem all that radical when it was announced). All just speculation.
     
  15. In the back of my mind I can't help but think that Canon is delaying the 1DX launch to announce a new 1DXs (my designation) to combat the Nikon high res camera. This way they could still have their high speed camera (1DX) and a studio camera (1DXs). This dual pro-body mentality has served Canon well for the last 10 years.
    I read this month that the Nikon D800 sensor has the best resolution of ANYTHING available now including all the medium format bodies. Canon can't like Nikon beating them out for any piece of the market.
     
  16. Perhaps someone can clarify a few points.

    1. What's the rush? Is there something that the 1DX will let you accomplish that you can't accomplish today?

    2. What's the rush - part 2. The main competition is the D4, and not many people have one of those yet, either.

    3. Why do you even want one? For those who believe that the D800 is the standard by which all cameras are judged
    (resolution, DR, etc.), an 18MP camera cannot be very exciting.

    The 1DX will be ready when Canon has finalized its feature set and has set up their manufacturing base to mass produce
    a model with those specifications.

    Out of curiosity, how many people on this discussion are actually going to buy a 1DX? Not hoping to buy one or
    considering one, but definitely buying one for your business? How is this delay impacting your ability to make
    photographs?
     
  17. The 1Dx at $7k? Not ever - that is "over the top"
     
  18. 1. What's the rush? Is there something that the 1DX will let you accomplish that you can't accomplish today?​
    Well, the 1D MkIV and the 1Ds MkIII aren't available either from most stores (there may be one or two sitting on shelves somewehere, but B&H don't have them).
    So if you want a pro level DSLR from Canon you're SOL at the moment.
    Canon announced the 1D-X 8 months ago. You'd think they'd have managed to make one by now...presumably the T4i they announced today will hit the stores before next February.
     
  19. bms

    bms

    Seems to me that there must have been something wrong with a major component....why otherwise shoot themselves in the foot. it also appears that Canon has focused much of its R&D on professional movie cameras rather than their DSLR line.
    On the other hand I would imagine that most Canon Pro's are quite happy with their current 1D-whatever and have much more invested in glass, so a few months delay may not be too catastrophic.
    What I don't quite understand is the pricing of the 5DIII - at this point people in the market for a new full frame DSLR or upgrading from crop sensor are probably more inclined to go with the D800.... just 2 cents from a Nikon shooter.
     
  20. zml

    zml

    Dan: 3000 shutter actuations times 150 shooting days on average can do really bad things to your camera and one can replace the shutter only so many times before something else fails making the repair either not feasible or impossible. And there are no 1D4/1Ds3 bodies available new any longer so perhaps there is a little bit of urgency here...
     
  21. Bob and Michael, your remarks about availability are spot on. If you need to replace retiring equipment, the only available option at this
    point is the 5D3. Would you not consider that to be a pro level camera? I've seen press photographers stationed outside of the White
    House and the Parliament building in Westminster, many of them with 5D2's hanging from their shoulders. I'm assuming that these guys
    were pros.

    Can the shutters of older bodies be replaced?

    Announcing a product so many months in advance is frustrating for everyone. I think Ben has a good point. I suspect that they discovered an engineering problem that forced some redesign, either at Canon or with one of their suppliers.

    5DIII pricing? That's another issue, but I think the price in dollars is completely reasonable given the value of the US dollar today versus five years ago.
     
  22. at this point people in the market for a new full frame DSLR or upgrading from crop sensor are probably more inclined to go with the D800​
    That may be true if you don't have any legacy gear, but if you have a bag full of Canon lenses, switching to the D800 is going to cost you a LOT of money if you have to sell your Canon lenses and replace them with the Nikon equivalents (or duplicate them in Nikon). It's not like switching from a Ford to a Chevy. I'd imagine most people looking for a 1D-X or a 5D MkIII are already heavily invested in Canon and switching to Nikon isn't a practical option.

    I'm inclined to agree that the D800 may be better value than the 5D MkIII (I've used the D800, I've yet to get my hands on a production 5D MkIII), but it really isn't an option for someone with an investment in Canon gear.
     
  23. The last thing Canon wants are a bunch of the world's leading sports photographers getting screwed up images at the Olympics from cameras that they haven't gotten all the bugs out of. That would ruin their reputation for a long time.​
    I fully agree but why state a date and then postpone it, again and again? That does not inspire confidence. I mean, say you are working on it and state no date (like the 200-400). Ready for production? Just send them out (like the 500 II and 600 II). They have done that many times.
    Happy shooting,
    Yakim.
     
  24. Why keep stating dates? I guess it keeps customers expecting the camera will be out soon and so they will wait for it. If they said last October that it wouldn't be out until the summer of 2012, people might have gone out and bought something else. Maybe even a Nikon...
    It's probably not deliberate deception. I assume the technical folks told the marketing folks when they though the camera would be ready, but they've either been too optimistic or problems have been coming up that they didn't anticipate. Still, it rarely hurts to promise what you can't really deliver. Politicians do it all the time!
     
  25. But why don't they say anything like "We have problems with finalizing the FW" or "The metering is not 100% to 1 series' user expectations" or alike? Japanese "saving face"?
    Happy shooting,
    Yakim.
     
  26. Folks please visit some Nikon forums. There are a raft of issues with the D800 and D4. From full-blown freezes to mediocre LV implementation. With some LCDs showing green cast. The D800 issues make the light leak of the 5d3 looks superficial in a kindergarten pettiness.
    Perhaps Canon wants to avoid those fiasco.
     
  27. It seems no one can be pleased.
    :)
    Happy shooting,
    Yakim.
     
  28. I'm not in the market for a 1Dx, but this is an interesting thread. Canon, it seems, is in trouble. I think even the most ardent fanboys will acknowledge this. As Bob stated earlier, if you want a pro-quality Canon body, you simply can't get one. That's unacceptable, and unbelievable! I shoot a 5D II, and while I have no plans to upgrade right now, I will eventually. And when I do, the siren call of those Nikon sensors may be too tempting. I don't have a ton of Canon glass, so the switch wouldn't be horrifically expensive. I will wait until after Photokina, though, to see if Canon has anything to preview, or announce, or actually deliver.
    Or Nikon, for that matter. Or Sony...
     
  29. For what it's worth I read that Canon has a 35 megapixel sensor and also a 50 megapixel sensor. Other then that I have no idea why they can't make things happen and ship. Who wouldn't want a 50 megapixel camera?

    For now I'll continue to use the 1ds Mk3. It's a fantastic camera and if Canon comes out with a 35 megapixel camera I may hold off a bit and see if that 50 will show up in a year or 2. For now, I will most likely buy a cheaper still/video camera and use the Mk3.

    I've enlarged images to 40X60 with the Mk3. It's not as good as the Hassy film days, but it's close and no one will ever notice much of a difference or reject the image.

    A few images have made it on covers of magazines. The one that paid the most for me was a pic of a wing on a jet shooting out very hot engine heated water to de-ice the jets wings. Needless to say, if anyone is using the 1Ds Mk3 knows this is a workhorse and it's fine for huge enlargements. However I'm looking forward to something fantastic from Canon to go into large format quality, not just medium format, which will meet a lot of pros satisfaction.

    Since they said they have these sensors where are they?
     
  30. Canon have a 120MP APS-H sensor. They reported on it two years ago. (Canon 120MP APS-H sensor)
    I'm not at all sure the significance of pixel count isn't way exaggerated. I've recently compared shots taken with the 35MP D800 and my old 13MP 5D and often there is surprisingly little difference (and that's using a tripod and good lenses stopped down a couple of stops from wide open).
    Who wouldn't want a 50MP sensor? Quite a few people I suspect. It's like asking who wouldn't want a car that would do 200 mph. There's always a price you have to pay, and not only in $$$
     
  31. Who wouldn't want a 50 megapixel camera?​
    I wouldn't. I don't print big and don't crop heavily. What benefit will I get from all those MP? Even the 18MP in my 7D are more than I need.
    Happy shooting,
    Yakim.
     
  32. A different slant on the matter, and a hypothesis...
    I was told (yes, yes...I know...) that Canon have been blindsided by what is rumored to be the Nikon D600. Some in the drip feed of info feel that Nikon is going to push FX down into the sub-$2k market. That could force a realignment of pricing in the compact/DX/FX pricing spacing balance and the best indication of this are the specs on the D3200. If the cheapest Nikon DSLR is going to have a 24mb sensor, then are we seeing the start of this realignment and model consolidation?
    This could put Canon in a difficult situation as now the market is being educated into expecting FX to have a 36mb sensor and DX to have a 24mb sensor ENTRY point. It may also lend credibility to the story that Nikon doesn't really want to be stuck with producing two separate ranges of quality lenses in FX and DX. Its probably cheaper to migrate everyone who is in the D7000 and D300s market...$1300 to $2000, to FX. Perhaps the reality of the tsunami has forced this rationalisation on Nikon.
    So whither the 1Dx? Perhaps the success of the 5DIII and the D800 is forcing this issue. Perhaps what used to be the "flagship model" will no longer be the D4 or 1Dx...perhaps these will just occupy a "sports pro" niche with smaller sensors and faster operation. And what studio photographer needs a sports battery grip anyway? So this produces two ranges of FX cameras...Hi resolution for studio and landscape (D800 5DIII), and smaller sensor sports models (D4 and 1Dx). Makes sense as you can't make one model do both without too many compromises.

    Who would want the job of camera marketing in Tokyo at the present, eh?
     
  33. Who would want the job of camera marketing in Tokyo at the present, eh?​
    Me. I'll start by asking customers what they really want and then unleash the engineers to exploit their full capability.
    One may dream, no?
    Happy shooting,
    Yakim.
     
  34. And what studio photographer needs a sports battery grip anyway?
    Try shooting a whole day of portrait subjects, 8-12 hours with a 70-200/2.8, and a camera without vertical grip. It's extremely un-ergonomic to hold the camera in this way, with your right hand above the camera and in front of your forehead, with any kind of heavy camera rig. In fact I wouldn't want to hand-hold any telephoto lens longer than about 85mm without the grip. And I never liked any of the add-on grips frankly, but I guess I'll have to get used to them if I want a modern high resolution camera. I by far prefer the handling and operational symmetry of the full size bodies. I dislike the camera deciding for me which I am to prefer, a portrait or landscape orientation image.
    The D800, much as it is glorified, is reported by many to have very short battery life compared to its effective predecessor, the D3X. Which do you prefer, if you are a landscape photographer, to carry one camera and one battery to the wilderness in -25C, or one camera and ten batteries and keep switching them? IMO while it seems to have been a clever way to expand the full-frame market, there is much that were not really thought out through in the D800 (if it remains the only high resolution option, with no D4X coming).
    I'm not at all sure the significance of pixel count isn't way exaggerated. I've recently compared shots taken with the 35MP D800 and my old 13MP 5D and often there is surprisingly little difference (and that's using a tripod and good lenses stopped down a couple of stops from wide open).

    I don't agree from the technical perspective. Even my 24MP camera shows far superior detail rendition to my 12MP model at or near base ISO. I wonder which lenses you used and which apertures and distance to subject. Also, the D800's base ISO DR advantage is in part thanks to its high pixel count. The electronics reading an individual pixel limit the picture quality less when you have a great many pixels.
    However, I still happily use my 12MP camera from time to time and when post-processing the images I feel like I am flying, it's so much lighter.
     
  35. In those tests I was using a D800 with the Nikon 24-70/2.8 at f5.6 and the EOS 5D with the new Tamron 24-70/2.8 VC at f5.6, looking at the center of the image in each case. ISO was low (probbaly 100, maybe 200). Distance was effectively infinity (maybe 400 yards?). Yes, the D800 image was probably fractionally better but the difference was surprisingly small.
    Unfortunately I don't have any lenses that I can mount on both my EOS and on the Nikon. I only have adapters for EOS to use older Tamron and Pentax lenses. I don't shoot Nikon, this is just a loaner.
    I suspect I'd see a larger difference if I was shooting test targets in my basement at ISO 100 with the cameras on my heavy tripod, mirrors locked up and using magnified Live View focusing. I'll be doing those tests later...
     
  36. And we'll be waiting to hear the results...
    Happy shooting,
    Yakim.
     
  37. New date: June 20th.
    http://cweb.canon.jp/camera/eosd/1dx/index.html
    Happy shooting,
    Yakim.
     

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