120 film on it's way out?

I've seen quite a few messages to this effect. I sure hope not.... i just got into it!

 

is this more conjecture or has there been actual signs of companies ceasing manufacture of 120 films? with my beloved polaroid having kicked

recently, i'd really hope not to take another loss here. do you think we're going to be able to continue buying 120, or should i be stockpiling like it's

going out of style?

 

i haven't been able to find any real articles or anything on the internet, and it seems like some companies are still really committed to the cause

(ilford). what do you think?

Well, 220 may be heading toward extinction, but it's less certain that 120 is done.

 

<p>

There <i>have</i> been discussions of this point. Here's just one example from the archives:

 

<p>

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00G8mW

I suspect that 120 will be with us for a long time to come. Look at Super-8 film, they still make that, and there hasn't

been a new camera manufactured in 25 years. The variety of films available is limited, and once they killed off

Kodachrome 40, I knew I was done.

 

I think we're looking at a similiar scenario for 120. It will be here for many years to come (after all, you can still buy

new MF cameras), but the variety of film and paper will become more limited.

 

I also believe that at some point, film's going to become "cool" again. Right now we're in the thick of a "film is

obsolete" holocaust at the hands of digital. Of course, film will never return to the top of the sales charts, but there

will be enough folks in the "cool" camp to keep some manufacturers interested.

Film is already considered "cool" and catching on with the young, raised on digital crowd, evidenced by groups like this:

120 will be around for a long time. And, Polaroid? It is still possible to buy Polaroid also Fuji instant print film.When digital first came on the market, most people had film cameras. So,the photo industry did what they could to sell digital. But, alot of people know that film has alot of advantages.

Vinyl is still in and as a matter of fact Soundscan reported vinyl sales increased last month. I see a parallel between vinyl

and film. Both are in constant danger of 'extinction' but always seem to thrive. Music labels still make and release vinyl.

Even with vinyl there is a digital threat, Serato. We'll be able to shoot film until the next World War, which would make

anything fun obsolete.

Another parallel. The old tubes. They have better sound than digital. That's why Eric Clapton buys tube amps for his guitar. My early 50's Zenith radio has better sound than any digital sound system I've ever heard.

As many have pointed out there are still 120 films cameras in production and plenty of people still use film on the whole so we are unlikely to see it disappear anytime soon. I agree that 220 will face cuts first. The less popular emulsions will go eventually but at the moment there is still plenty of choice. Don't forget Fujifilm still do an instant film for your polaroid back.

Well, Kodak rolled out a new TMY-2 along with new versions of Portra 400VC+NC. I'm lucky to have easy access to film and pro lab services here in Toronto, so unless or until that changes, I'll not miss much sleep fretting about it.

 

There is a certain cachet now around medium format, especially for b&w portraiture, but it's obvious(and certainly true in my case)that plummeting equipment prices are fueling the "old school" thing as much--or more--than the film "look" or technophobic sentiments.

 

BTW, what's wrong with Fuji instant film?

I think 120 is still ahead of the digital quality curve. The 20+MP digitals like the Canon 1DsMkIII may threaten, but for certain applications there's nothing like a big honkin negative or slide. Of course once they can routinely make 2 1/4 sized digital sensors for a good price, we might find ourselves with something the size of a Hasselblad with stunning digital image quality (and even more stunning file size -- at last a use for those 48GB compact flash cards).

I think 120 still has a lot of life left in it. The fridge at my local photo store is still full of all my favorite 120's, so I'm not too worried. I would imagine

the most we'll see immediately (in fact, I think it's already begun) is that it's likely to become more expensive as I'm sure production will dwindle

some (or the film companies will just market the nostalgia of film and up the price). That said, I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling that for all of digital's

advances, there's just something about film that many people are not likely to give up on. As for 220, I agree it's probably first to the chopping

block...it will be interesting to watch.

 

The biggest hit film will take (is taking) will be 35mm and smaller format consumer grade films. The people who use those have likely gone digital

already, and honestly, why wouldn't they? "Film" to non-photographers is history I'm sure, and I can see the drug store stuff being a thing of the

past before we know it.

I agree that it may well be 35mm that goes first. I've found little reason to use it. My 6 mp dslr easily beats a Leica with 90

Summicron on Provia. But it doesn't beat 6x6, though my next dslr certainly will. 35 may become an orphan size.

Landscape and pros will use 120. But who knows? The next round of models may change everything.

It all depends on how many people buy it. More and more people are edging towards digital because its edging towards the quality of 120. So the less people buy the film the more chances that it will go extinct. Add to that the less that people buy it the more the retailers have to charge to be able to justify keeping it in stock. As prices rise, people buy less of it and shoot more carefully. It's a viscios cycle. It has less to do with quality and more to do with the business aspect of it.

 

To that effect, the less fish in the pond the more food for who is left. If all but 2 or 3 film manufacuters were producing the worlds film they would see a profit and find it viable to keep making it. So as consumers we should all buy the best film for our needs to ensure that it will still be here years to come.

 

Just my opinion, take it or leave it

Dan

I just got into 120 film too, and I'm not worried at all. I see no reason why it will disappear. There's a lot of rumors and fear mongering...but that's all it is, just rumors. There are a ton of different 120 films available online, and in fact I can still get it easily from a camera shop. (I was actually surprised about that...I went there and asked if they had 120 film and they said "sure").

 

As Roger said, you can still get Super-8 movie film. And not only that, but you can still get double-run 8mm movie film (the spool kind). I use it all the time and I have no trouble buying it. I have a collection of old 8mm movie cameras, and I can easily order the film online and get it processed. So what does that say? Also, I went ino a Virgin music store in the mall...and I can tell you that yes indeed they are selliing RECORDS. And these weren't re-released retro albums or anything, they were modern bands and new albums.

 

I'm probably one of the younger generation that people are talking about, who has re-discovered film. When I was a kid, I used film cameras but I wasn't really into photography back then. Then after about 2004 I only used point and shoot digital cameras. I started filming in 8mm about 2 years ago, just because I was always curious about old movie cameras and I thought it might be something interesting to try. About a year ago, I became interested in manual film cameras and now 99 percent of the pictures I take are with film. I develop my own B&W film and prints. I love it, I'm having a blast with it. Also, my Yashica A blows away any picture I've ever taken with a digital camera.

 

So, I wouldn't be worried. Film might not be the huge consumer product it once was. Yeah, maybe the average Joe Blow doesn't like film anymore...or people just looking for "kewl pics" for their MySpace page. But there are plenty of other people who are interested in film, and maybe it's for the same reason as me...because it's a challenge and they want to try something new. If anything, it seems to me that black and white film is making a comeback. Color film will too once all the hype and rumors die down.

no way! 120 is making a HUGE comeback. A lot of people are realizing that if they're going to shoot film, they may as well shoot 120 - especially B&W. Wet photography is becoming an "art". People used to say that painting was on the way out when photography came into vogue...and you can still buy paint and canvas today. The industries are retooling, that's for sure. Big companies like Kodak and Fuji might get out of it, but there will always be boutique smaller companies making film. Some are just getting back INTO the film business...like efke, Harman/Ilford, and even a new, leaner AGFA and they're profitable. I've read that fotokemia (the company currently making efke and adox film) runs 24/7 and not keeping up with demand.

There is only one risk in it disappearing: tooling to make film becoming impossible to obtain (or too expensive, it is the same). As long as someone that sees a way to make profit making film can obtain the raw materials and the tools (coaters) someone will make film. But when buying a new coater (or maintaining an old one) becomes impossible then it will disappear. Another problem might be knowledgable chemists and process engineers. This knowledge is becoming extinct if there isn't a new generation willing to gamble to take over. No use having a working coater if there isn't anyone around that can work with it and produce a usable film before you burned through your funds.

According to <a href=http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/film.vs.digital.1.html>these folks</a>, for the

exception of the slow ultra fine grained films, digital has over taken 120 in terms of image detail.<p/>I have to

agree about the consumables becoming harder to get. I'm doing more and more mail order - my local stores are

stocking much less film (sometimes all they have is one roll of a particular film) and getting 120 color

processed is getting incredibly expensive.

Who cares about this doomsday stuff ... I don't.

 

Just buy it, use it, make history with it, and keep the medium format market moving with it! ... 120 and 220, and

70mm too, if you've got the kit.

 

We're all "on the way out". But I'm sure's hell going to have a lot of fun getting there!

<I>According to these folks, for the exception of the slow ultra fine grained films, digital has over taken 120

in terms of image detail.</I>

 

<P>Well, <I>of course</I> it's the ultra fine grained films that do best! They show Velvia 50, but I think

Velvia 100

is about the same, and ISO 100 isn't all that slow. They show Velvia 120 film with 645 format at around 40

Megapixels, which is going to cost you tens of thousands of dollars for a digital equivalent. And one could of

course use Velvia 120 film with a 6x6 or 6x9 camera. I think there is no digital equivalent for that.

 

<P>Also, the article seems to have been written in 2002. Many films have gotten better since then.

As Radford said, to get anything close to 120 in digital would cost thousands. Pros and the rich can afford that. Pros use digital because of the speed and having to keep up with the Joneses.But, amateurs don't have those restrictions.

The only B@W film I've found in 220 is TXP 320.

Nathan, I've heard a rumor that you're on your way out. Please confirm or deny.

I never really started learning my camera until I got a Canon Digital Rebel. I then upgraded to a Rebel XT when it came out. I'm fairly happy with the color results from my Rebel XT but more about that later.

 

I really like B&W photography so I had spent the last 2 years or so converting to B&W and trying to perfect digital B&W prints on my Epson P2200 which is supposedly a good black only printer. I got sick of it. I took one beginning B&W class last fall to learn how to develop and print. I started with 35mm and my very first absolute beginner print blows away all of my digital B&W prints even starting with a 35mm negative. I now develop B&W at home and am making a list of what I want to print when I get into a rental darkroom.

 

I then bought a Mamiya 645 Pro that I thought I would use only for B&W but I figured I'd see what it could do with color. After scanning a few color rolls I started to notice how noise free and great the the shadow detail is with the scans of the 6x4.5 negatives. Maybe I'm not getting the best exposures with my Rebel XT but many times the noise in the shadows is killing me. I hate it. It's easier for me, but more costly, to scan a roll of color film because I rarely have to do anything other than scan it. I'm finding I'm spending way less time in Photoshop now even including the scanning time.

 

I'm liking film so much that I sold the Mamiya 645 Pro, a couple of Canon lenses, and bought a Mamiya 7II. Yeah, there are limitations with film rangefinders but to me the limitations are worth it. Flash sync at all speeds, way lighter than a comparable 6x7 DSLR, quiet as a mouse, and the Mamiya lenses are awesome.

"... and bought a Mamiya 7II."

 

Great choice, Greg! If you can afford the entry fee, that's one great argument for shooting MF film.

"If you can afford the entry fee"

 

Heh heh, I'm not sure that I can, it was almost an impulse purchase.

 

And if I really had the money I'd pick up one of the Fuji 6x9 cameras as a backup. And then start looking at 4x5! hahahah

<p>well, i'm feeling more confident in it, at the very least. i've seen some nice digitals, but still nothing that can match medium

format, at least not unless you're a very well-to-do pro. myself, they're way out of my reach for now. and even if it was, i still like the

feel, anticipation, and control of film. </p>

<p>the low entry cost is great too, if you look around for it. i'm really hoping enough of my generation steps up and keeps everything

alive; and i'm hoping enough of the older generation is willing to help us through it! i've got a great deal of passion, but very little of

knowledge. digital helped get me a great start but i still need a whole lot more work.</p>

<p><i>Nathan, I've heard a rumor that you're on your way out. Please confirm or deny.</i></p>

<p>The rumors are greatly exaggerated.</p>