Ziess Ikon Ideal 250/7

I've just received a Ziess Ikon Ideal 250/7 9x12 cm plate camera. The

camera was sold as "parts camera", and I bought it for the Tessar lens

(13.5 cm f/4.5, which, BTW, appears to be very clean and in excellent

condition and should interchange with the Radionar on my Patent Etui),

but when I received the camera and peeled away a previous owner's

attempt to cover the open plate back (where there's neither ground

glass nor plate/film carrier of any sort) and examined the camera, I

found that it really only needs a CLA and the back end of the bellows

reattached to be serviceable. The CLA is an easy thing to arrange;

it's an older dial-set Compur and there are a couple services that can

clean those at quite reasonable prices. The leather covering on the

camera body is pretty severely trashed, not least by the electrical

tape, but that's a cosmetic issue, not a functional one.

 

My concern is the bellows; while apparently intact and in somewhat

better condition than those on either my Kawee Camera (Patent Etui) or

my Speedex Junior, it's completely detached from the camera body, and

there are no fasteners; it appears it was glued in originally (and the

80 year old glue isn't in good condition). Can anyone suggest a good

choice of glue for reattaching it, and a good means of clamping it in

place while the glue sets, in order to return to light tightness?

 

Also, this camera uses a different plate holder interface than the

Patent Etui and most other Ziess and Voigtlander plate cameras; the

light trap is on the front surface of the plate holder, and it appears

to set in at the bottom, then clip at the top, rather than sliding in

from the end as those others do; can anyone recommend a source for

plate or film holders and a ground glass back to fit this model?

 

I've tried to e-mail Goodwin Photo a couple times recently, asking

about more current information than the year-old page showing their

miscellaneous large format accessories, without response -- is their

AOL address current? I'm interested because they list a plate/film

holder for the 250/7...

Do a search on "zeiss ideal." I recently found myself in a somewhat similar situation, and many of your questions have been already answered there by our illustrius peers.

Thanks, Bill, I'd actually seen most of the threads involving this camera; that's how I was aware that Goodwin Photo lists holders to fit the Ideal. I still, however, need suggestions on what glue to use to reattach the bellows, and would appreciate any other pointers to sources for the ground glass back and film/plate holders to fit this camera.

<b>About reattaching the bellows:</b><br>

My instinct--and this isn't exactly academic, because I'll be replacing the bellows on a 9x12 folder I have (an Ica Trona)--would be to reach for a bottle of Elmer's. (If you're not in the U.S., then I'm talking about ordinary water-based white glue.) The bellows are basically fabric, which is perfect for this glue. And even though the surface you're gluing the bellows to is metal, it will be covered with the remnants of the old adhesive, which should give the new glue plenty of grip.

<p>(There may be other, better choices: possibly a rubber-based adhesive, like Barge cement. I'd stay away from contact cement: even though it will definitely hold, it's a pain in the ass to work with because you have only one chance to position what you're gluing.)

<p>So far as clamping goes, once the bellows are positioned, you should be able to clamp it by just pushing the front standard back on its track to collapse the bellows. If this isn't enough, then you can stuff some rags or tissues around the edge of the camera to keep the bellows in place. Clean up what excess glue you can before it dries. After it dries, you can go in with a black marking pen and touch up any visible glitches.

<p><b>Re: Goodwin Photo:</b><br>

I've been trying to get some film holders from them, too. I've had 3 or 4 emails now with one of the people there who apparently has been distracted by family health problems, so I've been waiting and waiting ...<br>

I did manage to get some plate holders with film sheaths from Pacific Rim Camera for $5 each, but they wouldn't have done you any good since they're the "standard" Zeiss/Voigtlander type that slide in.

<p><b>About Compur shutters:</b><br>

Since it sounds like you're an intrepid tinkerer, you ought to just open the shutter up and try lubricating it. I've got several of the old venerable Compurs, both dial-set and rim-set, and I've been able to bring all of them back to purring, whirring health. They're very well built and quite easy to open up and lubricate (easy does it, of course). There are 2 sets of clockwork, one for the slow speeds, the other for the self-timer. The front cover is held on by a bayonet lock around the lens mount and a single screw: take the screw out, rotate the front and it's off. No need to worry about little bitty parts sproinging out when you do this. (There are a couple of springs you've got to put back in place, just at one end, before reassembling, but it's very obvious where they go.) If you remove the 3 screws on the back of the lens assembly, you can take the shutter out completely to clean and lube it. Exercise due care and you'll be fine.

<p>These are truly amazing machines, to see how well they perform some 70 years after they were built.

<i> <b>About reattaching the bellows:</b><p>

My instinct--and this isn't exactly academic, because I'll be replacing the bellows on a 9x12 folder I have (an Ica Trona)--would be to reach for a bottle of Elmer's. (If you're not in the U.S., then I'm talking about ordinary water-based white glue.)</i><p>Yes, I'm in the United States, and I have a bottle of Elmer's in the basement. You make a good point about the old glue and fabric bits; the other glue I was thinking might have been used originally was something akin to rabbit skin or casein glue (which latter is what Elmer's was before the switch to polyvinyl acetate in the 1970s).<p> <i>So far as clamping goes, once the bellows are positioned, you should be able to clamp it by just pushing the front standard back on its track to collapse the bellows. If this isn't enough, then you can stuff some rags or tissues around the edge of the camera to keep the bellows in place. Clean up what excess glue you can before it dries. After it dries, you can go in with a black marking pen and touch up any visible glitches.</i><p>

 

Thanks, that makes sense; the whole bellows is held pretty flat with the bed closed, so if I get it properly aligned (with help from the back) when I close it, it should stay in place nicely.<p>

 

<i> <b>Re: Goodwin Photo:</b><p>

I've been trying to get some film holders from them, too. I've had 3 or 4 emails now with one of the people there who apparently has been distracted by family health problems, so I've been waiting and waiting ...<p>

I did manage to get some plate holders with film sheaths from Pacific Rim Camera for $5 each, but they wouldn't have done you any good since they're the "standard" Zeiss/Voigtlander type that slide in.</i><p>

 

Ah, so <b>you're</b> the one who grabbed those -- are you also the "nebbonz" I keep seeing outbidding me on antique cameras? I went back to their site to try to get them after verifying my Patent Etui would use that sort, and they were nowhere to be seen; fortunately, that camera came with three, and I was just looking to increase my ability to shoot without retreating to the dark box.<p>As for Goodwin, I may just have to try to call them during their (extremely limited) telephone hours, credit card in hand. I get the impression they're not really any kind of camera shop, but rather in the protracted process of liquidating the remainder of stock from their father's shop after his passing. If I have to, I think I can fabricate both ground glass back and film/plate holders to fit, but I'd certainly rather buy original Zeiss hardware than build it -- at a minimum, it'd save me several months of waiting for a "round tuit."<p>

 

<i> <b>About Compur shutters:</b><p>

Since it sounds like you're an intrepid tinkerer, you ought to just open the shutter up and try lubricating it. I've got several of the old venerable Compurs, both dial-set and rim-set, and I've been able to bring all of them back to purring, whirring health.</i><p>

 

Thanks, in fact I might try that. The Ideal's dial set Compur doesn't have a self timer, which will simplify things, and my other Compur, in the Patent Etui, appears to be perfect on the 1 and 2 settings; all the others sound right, and I gather that if the long ones are good, the short ones usually are too. Even better, this Ideal appears to have some kind of "quick dismount" lens that, according to my reading, was normally only sold on the Juwela and/or Tropica; there are a pair of bayonet hooks and if I can figure out how to unlatch them, it looks as if I can just remove the lens from the standard, as if from a modern SLR. There also appear to be two latching points on the bed for the front standard, presumably one for the 13.5 cm lens, and the other for a 15 cm lens (they're about that distance apart, though there isn't a focus scale associated with the longer one -- it might, instead, be for extreme close-up focusing, since it would produce nearly 1:1 image scale at maximum bed extension). And, the bed drops something like fifteen degrees below horizontal, producing a sort of fixed-angle front tilt that looks designed for large foreground landscape shots (in vertical framing).<p>

 

<i> These are truly amazing machines, to see how well they perform some 70 years after they were built.</i><p>

 

No doubt about it -- my Patent Etui (actually a Kawee Camera, the American sale version) is about 70, given that the model was only made until 1934, and this Ideal might be closer to 80 years old (judging by the dial set shutter). They've got features on them that would cost a couple thousand dollars on a new camera, they fold to fit in a coat pocket and leave room for a few film holders (in fact, the entire Patent Etui is about the same size as an ANSI 4x5 holder), and they're often still functional after outliving their original purchasers (and possibly their children).