Is there such a thing as a decent medium format camera in the $100-200 range?

I started off learning photography on my dad's Canonet viewfinder. I

was wondering if there is such a thing as a medium format camera with

similar capabilities (namely auto-exposure or at-least onboard

metering) in the price range that would be considered inexpensive

for "normal people" rather than inexpensive for a photographer or

inexpensive for lesser yuppies or credit-debters. To me this would

mean in the range of $100-200 including lens with $300 pushing it

alot. I wouldn't particularly want movements, or even changeable

lenses really, though that might be a plus. I just would like

something that would expose 120 or 220 without having to buy a

seperate light meter, which is really outside of my reasonable

budget. Also it would definately be a pain (probably an unacceptable

pain) if rangefinding and focus weren't tied since I think it would

just make it take way too long to compose a scene. A realy good

brand name might be a plus, but probably not one to warrant a

significant premium. Since my field of study isn't even remotely

related to photography I have no real reason to justify buying into a

system on the logic that I'll "pay more upgrading repeatedly" if I

get something less than pro. Believe me, I won't. In 35mm if it

wasn't for the craptastic tripod my parents found at Goodwill for

about $9 I wouldn't have a tripod at all. In other words I am

operating on the "bare-minimum capability" logic.

 

So, does this product exist? If not, I probably won't be trying out

medium or large format until I'm well out of college and financially

solvent, which will be a few years.

One of the Yashicamats has a built in light meter. I am not sure if it is the 124G or not. These cameras, on the used market, have quadrupled in price in the past 15 years! I think they are still in your price range though. A good research tool is eBay, most sellers list specs and you will get an idea of price. See if KEH.com has any.

 

I will say though that I have done all of my medium and large format photography without a built in meter. I always carry my 35mm for that because I am always taking backup photos anyway.

 

Good luck, I waited for years!

In my case, it was a Yashica Mat 124G ($200.00) and a Minolta Autocord ($100.00), together with a $100.00 Sekonic light meter. While the Mat has a meter, it's not accurate, and I think most opinion here would say "don't depend on the meter on a 30 year old camera". Both cameras are very able performers, although the single fixed lens is at times a drawback. That problem can be solved with a Mamiya TLR, but I'm not sure you can find one on your budget.<p>

 

<a href="http://www.photo.net/photo/713584&size=lg">This</a> photo was made with the Autocord, and is very sharp.<p> Another choice might be the Koni Omega cameras, but they seem big and clunky to me. The Autocord is quite compact, and its control layout is well thought out. It's great fun to use.

You can find great deals with used TLR's. The entire range of Yashica "A" through "D" are very good and can be had under $150. The YashicaMat's have gone up a bit over the last few years. The Minolta Autocord is another fine example. If you want something new, then you could look at a Seagull or Lubitel TLR - both are under $200, but in my opinion the quality of either if these is below a decent used Yashica or Minolta TLR.

 

Add a Gossen Digisix meter for about $120 and you are right in your price range. The Digisix will fit into the cold shoe - there's your "built-in" meter. I would go for a new meter - if you can find a used old camera with a meter (which is rare in itself), it probably won't work well (if at all). At least this way you'll get a nice modern, accurate digital meter along with a nice, simple and fun to use MF camera.

 

I got started in MF with a Yashica A - it's a fine little camera and I think I've seen them going for about $50.

Has anyone here had any experience with the Seagull (made in China), which lists under $200.00? Don't know if that includes a meter.

koni omega with the 90mm lens. get the one that takes 120 and 229

film. yes, they are heavy and old but they can take a beating. the

6x7 format is equisit

You can find a basic Mamiya C330 for about that amount. Nice 6x6 with interchangable lenses. Started me out in MF.

 

--Jeffrey Steinberg

You can buy the "Scout 3" meter new for $53 at B&H, so don't get too hung up on the meter-or-not-meter question. Most of the people in here would probably use a better meter, but then again, they're spending a bunch more on the cameras, too.

 

For the money, I'd suggest sticking with 35mm (ie, with an SLR). You have a lot more versatility, can add wide angle or telephoto, can get cheaper developing done, or buy cheaper enlargers and scanners if you do it yourself.

Ah, I see now. The biggest reason I was staying away from meters is that the expensive spot and incident meters just drown out the cheap ones in most listings to the point where I wasn't aware anyone made them! It doesn't help that most camera shops I've been in only sell the expensive kind either.

 

I will continue to use 35mm of course, I just have had this urge to play with a larger format for a while now and wanted to know if it was possible to get it without selling the car or something equally dear and buying a Hassy.

 

If I got something like the Scout 3 or Digisix is there anything I should be wary of, in terms of useability, with older models of TLR going back? Like say not having a standard shoe, a different screw size for the tripod screw, manual-only shutter timers, no faster shutter speeds, the film lense (term?) having to be manually matched to the twin lens, anything like that? Or does having a seperate meter make pretty much any camera reasonably useable without horrendous amounts of ancient lore and skill.

Note: the definition of "having horrendous amounts of ancient lore and skill" is roughly stated "The ability to properly expose a manual camera in various lighting situations without a meter, focus using only the distance scale, or some other impressive skill that similarly dates you."

There are a few SLR MF cameras that can be found in that range too. Bronica S2es to name one. You can find Minolta and Pentax spot meters on ebay for $50 to $100 which I prefer over incident anyway.

 

Stay away fro mSeagull, the Quality Control has been reported questionable by many I know who have bought them. I do know some peopel who say they are alright so if you get one and gives fuzzy shots or bad contrast I guess you could always exchange it until you get a good one.

If you want to experiment with a medium format 6x6 camera, I would stongly suggest that you buy a Yashica D, 635, or a YashicaMat 124, all under $200 easily. My local used camera store has a very nice Yashica D for $250, which is far too expensive (but, they have an in-store repair and have a good guarantee).

 

Look on eBay for a nice Yashica D around a hundred dollars with a return guarantee. The older cameras tend to have film advance sticking problems and sticky shutters...only from hardened grease...it's a simple fix but can be expensive.

 

Getting a nice Yashica TLR is a very good way to play with medium format.

 

BTW: I have a Yashica 635 (similar to the D model) that I like so much that I'm getting a red lizard skin kit to put on it, to replace the old black leather, from www.cameraleather.com

 

These are very good cameras.

Todd is right on about the D. Just make sure the lenses are the tessar-type Yashinon instead of the Yashikor (although the Yashikors are very capable performers, too!), but more importantly, make sure the lenses are completely clear of haze/fungus/etc. If buying online, ask the seller to (1) open the back of the camera, (2) set the shutter speed to B and the aperture to 3.5, (3) cock the shutter, (4) fire the shutter and keep holding it down, and (5) look through the lens towards a light source from inside the camera and out.

 

Plan on figuring out how to take off the waist-level-finder when you get the camera to clean off the mirror (will likely be dirty after 30 years). It will brighten up the view considerably.

 

The D is a very fine camera and can be found for under $100 if you look. Add a light meter and go nuts.

 

Of course, the D will limit you to 120 film.

 

Avoid the 124G, as there have been QC concerns raised here and elsewhere (plus, the meter on it is a joke). And the 124G commands an undeserved premium over the better 124 (non-G).

 

See:

http://www.williamsphotographic.com/yashica.html

 

Beware, though: the quality from the fat negatives is addictive!

Steven, I think the two cheapest meters available are the Scout and the Pilot. In both cases, they are somewhat limited on the low-light levels, and the more expensive meters will go several stops dimmer (my SLR, a Pentax K1000, has the same problem). I've never used either, so can't comment on ease-of-use, etc.

 

I've read differing reports on the Seagulls. The cheapest one uses knob-type film advance, with looking-through-red-window frame to know when to stop. I would much prefer the crank-advance, which is the next more expensive one. The cheaper Seagulls have 1/300 second maximum shutter speed and 3- element lens, top one has 1/500 and 4-element lens. There was a report on them in Shutterbug, seems like a year, maybe two years ago. Pulling them up on B&H website, then looking at Specifications will pretty much detail the differences.

 

Operating on a bare-bones budget, I would suggest you check into processing for 120 before jumping in. At a pro lab, it won't be any worse than 35mm, but then again, it will be expensive at a pro lab.

Steve, on eBay I purchased a few Zeiss Ikon Ikoflex's each one of them was well under $200.00. These are older cameras made by Zeiss Ikon but built well with excellent Zeiss optics (of course). They all take 120 roll film and for me produced for testing purposes very nice sharp pictures. If you wanted to go this route I would recommend the Ikoflex Ic which has a built in light meter in the viewer. No batteries are required! The mint Ic model I purchased was $161.00. It works perfect! I have found the best prices of course on eBay, but be careful with description and buyer reputation as always. As for my Yashica Mat 124G, this is a great built camera also, but they have gotten very pricey especially for a very nice one. I would say upwards to $350. Takes great pictures also, but does require a battery for the meter. Not a real big deal? If you can come accross one of these for $300 or under in great shape I would go for it. They are very well made also. But remember these cameras have been out of production for quite some time, and inorder to repair them would require some searching. There are shops though that will clean/and or repair them.

Looking around a little bit I think I found a gotcha. Could someone explain the differences in automatic or not automatic film advance, seperate shutter cocks, etc? I think I can guess what they mean but if I'm right it means I would have a heck of a time getting anything remotely resembling consistent frame spacing on some of the cheaper models, not to mention there's potentialy an extra step I might forget on some.

 

Also, any advice on how to identify a legitimate (sorta) overinflation of the market versus just a few sellers with schill bidders? on some of the less common items (like say the meters listed here) it can be hard to tell. For example there's only 1 digisix on ebay right now and it's been conned up to $150!

When talking TLR's, non-automatic film advance means that you have to open up a little red window on the back of the camera and wind the advance knob until the next number shows up in the window (i.e., then close it, shoot, repeat). An automatic advance, such as on the D, means that you have a wind knob that advances the film the correct amount each time without having to manually look through a window. The Yashicamats take this a step further with a big winding arm that both advances the film and cocks the shutter.

 

But cocking with the D (and the like) is done with a small cocking lever next to the lens. It's actually quite intuitive to use these TLR's, and you will become accustomed to it within a few minutes of using one.

 

Frame spacing is not a problem, in my experience. Also, even if you used a red-window variety, the frame spacing will only vary according to your own sloppiness. That being said, there is enogh space that allows you to be less-than-exact. You won't overlap frames unless you have some kind of gross spasm while winding. In other words, don't sweat this issue at all.

 

Using a TLR is admittedly slower than an SLR. Whether that matters depends on what stuff you shoot.

FWIW, forget eBay for the digisix: it can be had new for $109 at B&H. But you can do pretty well with something a lot cheaper, such as the Sekonic or Gossen meters already mentioned. Maybe you could stick with your philosophy of cheapness and get something for $30 on eBay (e.g., Gossen Pilot 2). It will be adequate for outdoor use.

 

Or learn to guesstimate exposures--lots of people do. Sunny 16 and wide latitude print film can take you pretty far.

I am astonished no one mentioned that for about $150 you can get a nice late Rolleicord. In my eyes these are much better built than the Yashicamats, do not look as clumsy and have superb ergonomics coupled with a first class lens (Schneider-Kreuznach Xenar or Zeiss Tessar). Look out for a Rolleicord Va or even better a Vb, these are not as old and feature the latest development for TLRs from Rollei like exchangeable screens & hoods.

<br>

For the leftover $50 you can buy a nice external meter like the digisix or an older Gossen like the Sixtar.

I'm surprised that no one here has mentioned any Fuji rangefinders since their owners seem to love their cameras so much!

 

I purchase my Fuji GS645S on ebay in the UK for 350 pounds. That was a little more expensive than others I have seen since because I bought it around Christmas I think. Now is a perfect time to buy camera equipment on ebay! I have since seen one go for 300 pounds.

 

This might sound like a lot when converted to US dollars but the US sales of this camera on ebay are MUCH cheaper. I didn't get one because I was afraid of Customs duty.

 

Like you, I really wanted an MF but I couldn't dream of spending anything close to what others do on this forum. The Fuji GS645S takes 6x4.5cm trannies that are CRYSTAL CLEAR. I swear I almost cried when I got my first 120 roll back. These cameras are known for excellent lenses.

 

The lens is fixed but it's about 35mm. There is also a Fuji GS645W or Wide version that has a 28mm equivalent fixed lens. Oh, and don't get these cameras confused with the old 'folding' version of the Fuji rangefinders.

 

Anyway, if you want more info on the Fuji MF's just search for 'Fuji rangefinder' on this forum. Or email me if you want, since I just went through this a couple of months ago!

Steven, as you can see most of the responders point to the TLR as

starter camera for MF work. While these cameras lack some of the zip

and flash of newer do it all cameras they will produce excellent photos

99% of the time allowing 1% for operator error.

 

The advice that you consider a Yashica 124 is good solid advice due the

fact that this camera is both capable, light and forgiving to use and own. The 6x6 format is good learning tool while allowing room to grow

composition knowledge base. To me "the square" format is very much like

a window that I view the world through when I take pictures. This

concept works very well for both recording & art photography.

 

There is one point that you need to be aware of prior to your start....

Find out where to buy film as well as processing.(local or mail order)

Hi Steven. I completely understand the inspiration for your post, and urge you not to put too much emphasis on the arcane techniques necessary to operate manual equipment. As format size increases, so does technical latitude. As one poster suggested, the sunny 16 rule and a wide latitude negative film can go a long way. On the other hand, as others have also stated, a perfectly usable, used light meter can be had for a few bucks. I have an old $5 GE lightmeter that requires no batteries and works just fine for reflected ambient light readings (point meter at subject, push button, read value). But as you hint at in your post, there's no substitute for experience in these matters, which is not meant as a deterrent, but just the opposite. There is a lot of knowledge and advice (sometimes difficult to know the difference) to be gleaned from the internet, and some excellent books available that make sense of these issues. I suggest that whatever camera you decide on, you supplement it with a good book, like Perfect Exposure, Medium and Large Format Photography, or Using Classic Cameras, all by Roger Hicks and Francis Schultz. There are of course many other fine books on the same subjects by other authors, but these come to mind currently. As far as camera choice, I'll add the Pentacon six TL, a 6x6 SLR with interchangable lenses from Zeiss in a wide range of focal lengths and just about every possible accessory one could hope for. It handles much like a large 35mm SLR would, so you might be more comfortable with it than one of the fine TLRs suggested by others. Here's a link to one on ebay right now

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2930313602&category=710

 

 

Good luck, and happy shooting

I second the suggestion of a Rolleicord. I've used one, as well as a Yashica 124 and mamiya C330. If I ever go back to TLRs, I'd get a Rollei. As far as a meter is concerned, I'd second the sunny 16 suggestion: use TX400 (better midtone separation than TXP320) and the picture guide that comes with it (but start by overexposing 1 stop). It'll work for at least 90% of your shooting. If it doesn't, then buy a meter.

I picked up a Zeiss Super Ikonta for $100. It is 60 years old or so, but takes wonderfull pictures. It is a folding 6x6 camera with a coupled range finder. I prefer this camera to TLR's for the speed and size - I use it more like a point and shoot.

I would say that with an inexpensive TLR like a Yashica or Autocord, or Rolleicord, or a Mamiya C2/C3/C22/C33 or a Koni-Omega Rangefinder, you have pretty much covered the bases for GOOD medium format cameras capable of sustained serious results that will be less than $200. The Koni-Omega is big and bulky, but very robust, and offers both interchangeable backs and lenses, which are very useful to have, along with the wonderful 6x7 format.

 

The TLRs are all rather similar, except the Mamiyas are bulkier but offer interchangeable lenses.

 

I personally find the meter on a Yashica Mat 124 (MUCH better than the later Mat 124-G because the winding mechanism on the later 124-G is prone to failure, while the Mat-124 is much more robust, and they are otherwise identical except for cosmetics) to be reasonably accurate and very useable, although having a good hand held meter is worth having.

 

BTW, Since I just got myself a great Rolleiflex 2.8D with a Zeiss Planar lens, I am offerring two of my Yashica Mat 124 TLRs for sale: (I will still be keeping a 3rd one, in which I've installed a wonderful Maxwell Bright Matte screen).

 

Both of the Yashica Mat 124 TLRs I'm offerring are in Ex+ shape, with clean lenses and shutters, and everything as they should be. One has a fully working meter and is in perfect working order, the other one has a broken meter, but otherwise is completely functional. Both have recently had the lenses and shutters cleaned and fully checked out. I'd sell the one with the working meter for $160, and the one with the broken meter for $80. Both are guaranteed to work or I'll refund your money - except for the meter on the cheaper one, of course. I was planning on putting these up on ebay next week, but this list gets first crack at them. Let me know if you are interested.