What is the future of 4x5 film photography?

"I think there is definitely a digital backlash"

 

I think the marketplace clearly suggests the reverse.

"I think the marketplace clearly suggests the reverse."

 

I think the real world suggests you're wrong.

This has been a very interesting read for me - I'm looking to move to an ultra lightweight 4x5 system for backpacking - landscape - B&W mainly although I expect to shoot some colour as well.

 

I think there are two markets for 4x5 film - those who do it as a business and are always looking at "the bottom line" and those who do it purely becuase they enjoy the mechanical process of chemical photography.

 

Not saying pro's are all about the bottom line - but if it can be done faster and cheaper with digital I fully expect them to jump - it simply makes good business sense.

 

As an IT proffessional the last thing I want to do is fiddle with a digital camera , batteries and adapters. So I pretty much will be staying with chemicals. There is something wonderfuly tactile about dealing with chemicals and film and enlargers after dealing with computers all day. It feels more to me like an art and a craft when it's a manual chemical based process.

Sales in the marketplace accurately the real world, Robert.

Did Kodak note that all film sales were down, or their film sales? To me this makes a big difference. I think LF is doing better than it was just a few years ago when I got into it, Bergger is a good example of this. I'm sure 35mm film sales have plummeted, but I just find it hard to believe that sheet film sales are declining as well. Yes, Kodak may stop making film, but I think there are other manufacturers that have and will fill that void.

 

Someone else raised the point that there are other professions that use film, medical radiology comes to mind. And, until there are tools out there that replace a good old chest x-ray, I can't see film manufacturing completely going away.

 

I suspect color is in much more jeopardy that B&W.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens, but I am enjoying it now and have no intentions of giving it up any time soon.

 

 

-Jen

"Did Kodak note that all film sales were down, or their film sales?"

 

Benjamin A. Reitzes, imaging technology analyst at the Union Bank of Switzerland was interviewed by the NY Times for an article three weeks ago. He said, "Film demand peaked in early 1999."

LF sheet film will be around for a long time. Digital marketing hype, notwithstanding.

 

For me, digital is good for only one thing: crappy instant snapshots.

 

At some big photo show at Helix, some digital salesman (with about 6 months experience in photography) bragged and showed me their digital output. Took me about all of 1/2 second to point out the jaggies and digital artifacts. His response ignored the faults completely "Ya, but all the pro's are going digital and leasing because it pays for itself!"

 

If you shoot film, you can always have a great shot drum scanned and made into a picture. That seems to be the best way to get any digital results that I've seen.

 

At least you'll have the neg or slide to project or make darkroom prints too, if you are inclined that way too.

 

My .02cents.

Wayne said 'Now I wonder what Kodak is going to do with those old coating machines?' What is also interesting is what may be happening with the NEW coating machines.... The AMICAL (Association of Industrial Metalizers Coaters & Laminators) has a interesting little press release by Kodak in relation to it's formation of it's Global Manufacturing Services Unit, that seeks to take advantage of the company's manufacturing expertise to produce a variety of coated materials and chemicals for others on a contract basis. These 'others' are emerging industries and don't appear to be 'photographic film' based. Kodak's sales stats are on it's web site in the on line Annual Report.

The history of photography is littered with processes that were rendered obsolete new processes that were more efficient/cheaper. The new processes relegated the virtues of their predecessors to the dustbin but also opened up new possibilities of their own. Why should film be any different?

For me, digital is good for only one thing: crappy instant snapshots.

 

Roger,

 

Digital capture and file processing is as sensitive to proper methodology and technique just like film. Perhaps you were shown some poor examples. Have you ever seen quality light jet prints made from a Betterlight scan back or a Phase One H20 single capture back? The increased dynamic range these backs have, when used with proper raw file processing, produce an image that can exceed films characteristics. They can be indisinguishable from a 4x5 chrome that was drum scanned. I cannot say better because that is subjective.

�The Global Positioning System made my sextant obsolete�

 

Silly statement.

 

When I was in the Army, I set up land navigation courses for field testing. I can still navigate by compass and topo map today. No need for satellites or batteries. Did GPS make my orienteering skills obsolete? NO. And I doubt many relying on GPS could cope as well as I if they lost their precious batteries or satellite links. This is not a good analogy to the current changes taking place in film/digital.

I'm very new to LF. I just printed my first 16x20 from my second outing with my 4x5 camera. I am absolutely in love with it. I will be doing my part for film sales for a long time.

 

I think one of the biggest reasons for me that I didn't get into it before, was that I didn't have anyone to give guidance to me. I lucked into a class that a local photographer taught and he has turned out to be a great mentor. He has been willing to answer many questions for me and show me very generously what he knows. I think it is people like him who will be the key to sustaining film and large format photography. I don't think I would have had the nerve to try it without his help.

 

As far as digital, my mentor has clients who when offered a choice, generally prefer film. There are still a lot of people who haven't seen good enough quality in digital to want that in his business. For me, I just think it is sad that the digital users that I see seem to substitute quantity photography for fewer shots, but ones that are well thought out. They also are very willing to delete shots pretty quickly that may end up being important to someone in the future. I recall that the famous "beret" picture of Monica Lewinsky w/Pres. Clinton was taken by a film photographer. He said that everyone else there was shooting digital and had deleted the images as unimportant. When she became newsworthy, he was able to look through his negs. and find the shot that then became very well known.

Jonathan,

 

Don't take my comment so seriously. I'd be the first to say that mastering the use of a sextant gives one a sense of accomplishment in a way that pushing a button on a GPS unit does not. But the sextant is in fact a perfect example of a technology that was overtaken, in the space of about five years, by something new. Lots of people fought the transition. They defended the history and craft of navigation by the stars and astronomical tables. They said "What will happen if the satellites go on the blink or if your GPS unit fails?". In the end, those arguments crumbled before the reality, which is that you can buy a GPS unit and a few backups for the price of a sextant, and you can get precise navigational information at the push of a button. When I hear people talk about film and digital, I am indeed reminded of the great sextant v. GPS debate that took place between sailors, and I think that for many people concepts of tradition, etc. are indeed at the heart of the debate. My prediction, for what it is worth, is that tradition will be overtaken.

From the Kodak Web site.

 

"Worldwide consumer film sales to dealers (including 35mm film, Advantix film, One-time-use Cameras) in the fourth quarter increased 1%, reflecting a 3%volume increases, negative 4% price/mix, and a 2 %favorable exchange. U.S. film sales to dealers decreased 5%, as a result of 1% volume declines, and negative 4%price/mix. Outside the U.S., film sales to dealers increased 7% with 5% volume increases.

Jennifer states:

 

"I suspect color is in much more jeopardy that B&W."

 

I think this may be true. Only a few companies know how to make quality color films. Once these companies have decided that it is not cost effective the "secrets" of making these films will probably be lost.

 

B&W is much easier, there are more companies making B&W films, and the "secrets" are not as deep.

 

Ken

PC sales down or flat for four straight years.

 

Every survey showing PC and internet use down.

 

On going stories about helpless computers being attacked by baseball bats.

 

Anybody who doesn't believe that a digital backlash exists needs to get away from the glow of thier monitor and talk to people. Who is the last person you heard say they wanted to spend more time with thier computer?

 

Oh and I suggest people actually spend a few minutes reading the statements put out by companies like Kodak. Makes the claim of soaring digital sales and falling film sales seem at best marketing hype. Don't look at dollar amounts look at the number of square feet of film shipped. Need I also mention that the travel industry is a lit slow lately? That the worldwide economy isn't too great?

Digital Backlash. I've never heard it before and it sort of just appeared on my keyboard. Maybe I heard it somewhere and just didn't remember.

 

I love making images. Especially color images. I like to talk to people on my computer. I do not like to do long laborious technical tasks on my computer. I like to look at my images hanging on my walls and might actually try and sell them someday. If it's financially feasible I will pay someone to do the puter stuff as I don't want to invest the time to learn it. I can sharpen and clone and resize and a couple other things in PS and I really don't care to do much more. If I come up with half a dozen great images a year I will be more than happy. For this I'm going to invest two hundred hours or so of study to master PS? Don't think so.

 

When I'm plugging quickloads as fast as I can into the back of my camera and praying what my eyes see can somehow make it onto my film ... I'm happy. I'm at the lab next morning first thing and I get back there exactly two hours later so I can get em on the light table asap. I'm even happier then. I've got my first image I think worth printing and when it goes up on the wall I will stare at it for hours. I will be happy then too.

 

I'm not trading all this in for the heartburn of trying to figure out how to do it on a computer screen. When I get the REAL keeper it's going for a drum scan. I'll let the professionals do all that stuff.

 

I've followed what Alain Briot has gone through figuring out how to make his Epson 9600 pay off. NO THANKS.

Dear friends

 

If film was invented after the digital, then every body would rush to film.

 

 

20 years ago when I bought my first 35 mm film camera, one of the first moviecams if you will know, every body told me I was a moron because high definition Video would run over film.

Film is still actual and although the most of the post production is done digital the origination is still film negative and after the post production they go back too film.

 

The problem with electronically generated image material is the time it will last.

There is still good film material and photo material available off the first world war.

But the British have most of the Falkland war filmed on video and there is not much left any more of that material. Not only due the deterioration off the magnetic signals recorded but all so due the evolution of the hardware.

 

Who off us have still a computer that can read 7� an 5� floppy disks?

 

I have at my home the family photo archive. The oldest dated from 1885 there are some Daguerreotypes some auto chromes and over the 5000 glass plates of different formats.

All that material is in very good condition.

Now before you panic, answer this question: Would a digital picture that you take to day still be there for the next generations?

 

As for the supply off film material. The major companies will still produce film in different formats the next 10 years. If they stop because they find it no more profitable, smaller players on that market are too willing too take over.

For example Berger is producing very nice black and white film in the most exotic formats you can imagine.

Actually I don�t know any small company that produce color film negatives or reversal. But I am sure that as soon the big giant drop the production of color film the smaller players will jump in the gap. The consequence probably will be that there will be more different brands and film types than ever.

An other consolation is that although I am photographing 48 years there was never so much LF film and equipment available than too day.

 

So LF as never been so lively than too day.

 

So don�t worry and buy that camera, Your grandson will take still photographs with it as we all will be at the eternal darkroom.

 

Francis Verbeeck

"PC sales down or flat for four straight years."

 

Incorrect:

 

http://news.com.com/2100-1001-984863.html

 

"Every survey showing PC and internet use down."

 

Not accoriding to a quick search:

 

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/dailytimes/2003/01/05/business/4879147.htm

 

http://www.ethoseurope.org/ethos/lit1.nsf/738e36a82abcd3e1802567b3004de520/8a8df60165029f8c8025681200591ca7?OpenDocument

 

If you have evidence to prove your assertion, please provide it.

 

You may feel that there is a 'digital backlash' but the evidence is lacking.

I wouldn"t fear going into LF , it is a rewarding format and hobby, I have been doing camera repairs since 1965 and the only fear is that some chemicals will be regulated to death. As far as equipment goes the old stuff keep going, just cla and keep a camera boneyard for parts, or better yet get repair manuals, I got started by buying broken cameras and selling, just in case I broke something, also I got many of the Ed Romney books on camera repair. I just got fed up with how short of a time my printer lasted, I went to push the cardridge lock down and the whole transport broke off,,so much for plastic..."Also check up on the permanence of ink jet prints..I have some 16mm movies I shot and they look as good as the day I shot them. So in summary get the gear you want and stock up on paper film and chemicals and you will be doing fine...Good Luck ..Don