Suggestions for 1st MF

OK, for those of you who answered my first question in this forum,

you'll notice that I've changed my mind about which camera I am

lusting after!

 

The facts: I own a Canon EOS Rebel XS with 19-35, 28-80 and 100-300

lenses. I have only been serious about my photography for about a

year. I have recently switched to slide film. I take mainly

nature/landscape and travel photos and have just started a bit of

macro. I will be getting a bonus at the end of March from work and

would like another camera. I don't need chageable lenses or backs

necessarily, as I would be using an MF for landscapes.

 

I read a review of Mamiya's 645E and thought if I could find a second

hand one with lens for £300-400 I'd be set. I recently read another

review in a backissue about rangefinder MF's and how much smaller and

lighter they can be. I had been a bit worried about the weight and

bulk of MF's when travelling. I fell in love with the idea of

expanding a Mamiya 7II to panoramic (I've always wanted a true

panoramic but I can't afford a Hasselblad). Now I've found that used

7's are terribly expensive and I started looking for 6's. They seem

hard to find (I know they are discontinued) and are as much, usually

more than the 645E's I was looking at.

 

So, I guess the question I need answering is:

 

Am I deluding myself into thinking I will ever find an affordable 6

or 7? Can someone recommend a much cheaper rangefinder?

OK, why a rangefinder? If you are committed to landscape photography it will not be long before you'll at least want to use a polariser and a neutral grad filters. The first one can be done on a rangefinder but it still a pain in the ... the later one is all but impossible to do.

 

If you want MF on a budget consider 2nd hand hasselblads. They sell at all time lows at the moment and really are not that heavy etc. You could pick-up a 500C, back and lens for +/- �800 or a thereabouts. They are light, versatile and good quality. Check it out.

I recently moved from TLRs to a Mamiya 645 1000s and I absolutely love it. Beautifully built, small enough to handhold, prism meter is accurate, and the 80mm 1.9 lens is just amazingly sharp. See if you can do a "try before you buy" on the 645e.

If you really need to focus with a rangefinder then the Fuji GS645 is a very nice camera. More often I pick up my Perkeo with a Color-Scopar or the Selfix 1620 with the Ross Xpress lens. They all produce top quality pictures. If you need to do panaramics just stitch together multiple shots.

I suggest that you get something you can afford, and then stick with it for at least a year. After you've done that, then make a better decision.

 

Personally, my first real camera was/is/still is my Pentax 6x7. Before that I only had a point-n-shoot. It weighs a lot, and the East German 300mm f4 telephoto lens for it also weighs a lot. I have Pentax 45mm and 90mm lenses, and the 300mm Pentacon. I mostly (95%) use the 90mm.

 

You can make a panoramic shot out of any MF -- just crop. That's all that the Fuji M7 does, essentially, when you use 35mm film. I just got a 8x24 panorama from a 645 slide on Kodak E100S, and its pretty doggone good! I would have had _exactly_ the same quality from a 6x6 as well. 6cm wide is 6cm wide. My Pentax 645 had the 75mm lens, and a 6x6 would have had an 80mm lens. Not much difference there.

 

Think if the weight difference between the RF and SLR and TLR is really that significant. All of them are pretty compact, and there are plenty of various used TLRs for pretty cheap. Get something in good condition, get a clean/lube/adjust done at a good repair shop, and then just go and make lots of photographs.

First of all, what do you consider affordable? I just sold a

Mamiya 7 with a 65 & 150mm and a panoramic adapter and a

Kirk quick release for around $2100. I used this for landscape

photos primarily because of the weight, easy handling, ultra

sharp lenses, etc. Compared to what they go for new, you can

find really good deals now on eB@y and sites like this. Many

people are moving to digital and are selling fine cameras like

this one for much cheaper than what they were selling for a year

or two ago. Especially with the advent of the 11 & 14 megapixel

dslr's.

 

The Mamiya 7 also offers the option of shooting panoramics on

35mm film which is nice, but there are no cropping lines in the

viewfinder so it's a bit of hit and miss. But at least you have this

option available to you and aren't limited to 35mm film like a

Hassy X-pan.

 

I also have a Fuji GA 645zi which is even more lightweight and

has the versatility of a built in zoom lens. This is what I typically

take backpacking and travelling because of it's portability and

weight. It's a good starting point for MF since it has a program

mode, aperture priority and full manual modes.

 

If weight and size is a serious issue, then I would consider a

Mamiya 7 or Fuji 690 or 645 rangefinders. The Fuji's are much

cheaper and have very sharp lenses, although the contrast of the

Mamiya seems more natural to my eye. If weight is not an issue,

many people like to shoot MF slrs like Hasselblads or the

Pentax 67. The Pentax is nice with a big 6x7 neg, but has some

issues with shutter induced shake around 1/15th sec. The price

is right for these though and with mirror lock up and a heavy

tripod you can get by. Hasselblad is very expensive. A single

lens could buy you a Fuji rangefinder.

 

In the end you have to look at what's important to you. Is your

budget the main factor? Weight? Easy use of filters? Viewing

the image through the lens? These factors will best determine

what camera you end up getting. If you need more info you can

email me directly and I can give you my opinions and

experiences with Hassy, Pentax 67, Mamiya 7, Fuji 645zi, Rollei

SL66, Mamiya C330, Mamiya RB67 and Ebony, Plaubel, Sinar,

Wista view cameras. I've spent a lot of money and time checking

out different cameras and feel like I have an understanding of

what works well for me so I'd be more than willing to share

some of that info with you if you'd like.

Get a Koni-Omega Rapid M, or the essentially the same, Rapid Omega-200. Those cameras can be gotten used in perfect working order for around $250 or less, complete with one back, and a 90mm lens. You could also pick up the 58mm (sometimes marketed as a 60mm) wide angle lens for another $300 or so. Extra backs can be gotten for under $100 each. You will also need a hand held meter.

 

I ended up SELLING my Mamiya 7 with it's 80mm lens, because, other than lighter weight and metering with aperture priority automatic exposure, the camera offerred nothing beyond what my Koni-Omega offerred. Plus, lenses for the Mamiya 7 cost $1000 each or more at auction sites, while the K-O Rapid lenses cost $200-300 each in excellent shape. The Mamiya 6 is currently selling on auction sites for nearly as much as the 1st generation of the Mamiya 7. And for landscapes, you will want the rectangular 6x7 format of the Mamiya 7 or the Koni/Rapid Omega.

Get a Fuji rangefinder. I've heard great things about them and would love to get one my self.

Koni-Omegas are quieter and less expensive than the Fujis, and unlike the Fujis, they also have interchangeable lenses and interchangeable backs.

If you are considering a RF please make yourself a favour and TRY one before you buy it. I played with a Mamiya 7 for days and hated the rangefinder. Found it really hard to work with. Just a personal preference - but make sure that you know what *you* like before buying.

 

Also, you mention that you have started doing some macro photography.

Well, forget about doing that with a rangefinder. You'll need an SLR in the end.

 

The 645 sounds like a good option, also do try to check out second hand Hasselblad's as the prices are real low right now on *bay.

 

Good luck

If a normal lens will suffice, a good twin lens reflex is a relatively inexpensive entree into medium format. A later Yashica, Minolta Autocord, Mamiya, and Rolleiflex is a good choice. I have a copy of each and can attest that properly used, each brand will take excellent pictures. There are any number of threads in the archives on choosing among them. Good luck.

You should try and play with a rangefinder before you step up to one, especially the 7/7II. Using and focusing are quite different than an slr . Some people love them and some people hate them, I hated them. I was shopping for a medium format camera two years ago and what I found was a good little sleeper of a camera was the manual focus pentax 645. It is built extremely well and has lenses that are inexpensive but really sharp and contrasty. Plus the newer P645n, and the nII can use all of the old accessories. I used the p645 and just now gravitated to the NII and am completely enamored by the camera. It does everything that I want it to do and is robust enough for traveling, landscape work. You could look at the mamiya but I would suggest you get one in your hands before you buy. I have read that the quality isn't up to the level of their other cameras and breakdowns have occured. The lenses are more expensive than pentax too. Just a suggestion, thanks

I second the 645 1000s suggestion, I got mine (with an 80mm macro lens) for about £400 from eBay, absolutely fantastic. By the way, the macro lens focuses right from infinity to 1/2 life size, and it's pretty damn sharp all the way! I've used mine for everything from macro, to weddings, to landscapes and only ever been overjoyed.

Lindsay,

If you order by Friday (28th) Robert White is offering a special on a new Bronica 645RF (rangefinder)for £762 with 65mm lens. Plus you get £50 cash back, for £712. This is a nice, solid, well-built 645 rangefinder that won't take up as much room in your travel bag/backpack as a MF SLR. However, are you prepared to give up TTL viewing, especially when using filters, as pointed out by a previous respondant? You definitely should try one before setting your heart on a rangefinder. I've used one a few times, and found focusing quick and easy. But I choose not to live without TTL viewing, with DOF preview and judgement of filter effects.

The Bronica ETRSi I recommended in your previous posting is smallish and easy to carry, too, and it is an SLR. In addition to 645, a 35mm panoramic back is available. And Robert White has this camera for £636 new--much cheaper used ones (ETRS or ETRSi) can be had. It may be the answer you're looking for. I'd try it, along with some other RF and panoramic options, as well as other MF SLRs in 6x6, 6x4.5, and 6x7.

Happy hunting!

in medium format i shoot with both a fuji 645i and the g690III. for landscapes the g690III is hard to beat. although large, it is very lightweight and the 6x9 negative easilly prints to 24x36 and can be cropped to 12x36. used they are under $1000 and they come with a built in level. please remember that with 645 format cameras the long direction of the negative is oriented vertically which is not convenient for landscape photography.

Obviously you've gotten a lot of good opinions for the camera equipment. Everything mentioned here have a lot of wonderful sides and a few bad sides. That's the nature of cameras.

 

For one thing, I second Colm on his opinion of 645e vs M645 1000s. I played with the 645e (which is made in China) and couldn't put it down fast enough. It has so much plastic that I wonder how it would hold up against elements. Heck, you might as well go for Holga (have 2 of them myself and love them - see modifiedholgas.com!) On the other hand, I spent $400 on my used but recently CLA'd M645 1000s with metered prism and love its built quality and feel. I don't even have a single Mamiya lens for it, but with a little adapter I was able to mount my Zeiss Jena and Arsat lenses on it and get excellent results. I particularly love the 30mm Arsat fisheye lens which I spent $150 on it (brand new). Now I have a Hartblei 45mm super rotator tilts-shift lens ($700 brand new), and the camera has become a workhorse for me. A Mamiya 80mm/1.9 lens is on my future purchase list.

 

Mamiya 7 has one of the best and sharpest lense lineups in the business. But, you pay a lot for it. After about 10 rolls of film on the 80mm lens I am still trying to get used to the rangefinder. Works good for distance landscapes, but I always screw up the framing for nearby objects if I am not careful. That's the nature of most of the medium format rangefinders. But then again, the 6x7 slides are big enough that you really don't need a loupe to view them. With the 6x4.5, you still need a loupe. Now if you tried a good 6x9 folding camera then you won't even go back to 645 format.

 

With the folding cameras you have to be very careful about the condition of the bellows, mechanical parts, and very improtantly, the flatness of the lens plate vs. the back plate. If you are in England, then look for a good Ross Ensign 820 in excellent condition. It shoots both 6x9 and 6x6. I bought 2 of them already from so-called reputible UK sellers on ebay and both turned out to be junks. Unfortunately, there are not too many of these cameras in US so I couldn't inspect them before buying them.

 

If you like the square format, there are tons of TLRs out there. Rolleicords III or newer can be had for around $100 to $200 in almost perfect condition. I have a Rolleiflex 2.8F3 which I bought used last year for $400 and spent another $135 to CLA it, added a Kiev 88 prism on the top of it, and now it is one of my most favorite 6x6 cameras. Images are very sharp, and you can find tele/wide/macro converters for them. The 'flex 3.8-series are more affordable.

 

Best of luck....

After 20 years using 35mm I decided to get MF. I was unhappy with enlarging to panoramic orientation from my 35mm trannies and wanted an XPAN. At the time though it was beyond my budget. After looking extensively at all the alternatives I went for the Fuji rangefinder GSW690III. It fits in the same CCS case that I carry my F4s in (just), and gives me an 86mm wide Velvia to enlarge from. If you can live with the fixed lens then it is highly recommended. Though you'll have to be quick since Fuji have announced that the 690/670 cameras are to be discontinued (though I don't know a date).

Happy hunting.

"...please remember that with 645 format cameras the long direction of the negative is oriented vertically which is not convenient for landscape photography."

 

True, but on the Bronica ETRS/Si cameras, the film is also orientated to wind vertically rather than horizontally in the back, so that when the camera is held right-side-up, the long side of the negative is horizontal--ie the viwefinder is in landscape rather than portrait format. With this camera, it is portrait format shooters who must turn the camera on its side.

 

Also, for me 6x4.5 slides are still plenty big to view without a loupe (maybe my eyes are better than most!), especially when compared to 35mm.

 

True, 6x7 slides are about half again bigger still, but I am willing to trade that for the convenience in the field of 5 more shots per 120 roll. To each his/her own!

For Bronica ETRS(i)(6x4.5) and SQA(i) there are panoramabacks awailable for 135-film, they give 24x55 pictures with horisontal orientation.

 

I have bought an A16-back (6x4.5) for my 501CM [to supply my A12 (6x6)] to use for some landscapes for pictures in "6x4.5", "6x3" and "6x2.4"

The 135 panoramic backs for the ETRS(i) cameras do present another option for landscape work. I usually prefer the camera's 645 back, with a horizontal 56mm by vertical 42.5mm (Bronica is slightly larger than most other 645 cameras in this latter dimension). I can then crop to a narrower vertical dimension if I want.

 

I suppose a clear advantage to the 135 panoramic back is that with a 36-exposure 35mm film, you get 23-24 exposures at 24x55mm, rather than 15 with the 645 back.

.....Bronica SQA(i)(6x6)...........

 

For panoramas I'll crop the pictures from my A16-back (or from my A12-back).

I think you would feel quite restricted with a Mamiya 6/7 and the panorama adaptor mounted. You can´t change format in midroll ( without rewind the film). In panoramic format, you will likely feel a need for a wideangle lens. I think you are able to find a second hand Fuji 670/690 at less of what you have to pay for a Mamiya 6 with a 75mm lens. The Fuji would be more flexible with regard to panoramic shooting, especially with the 65mm lens. Robert White in U.K. sells them brand new for 625 to 725 £.