Has anyone ever have to use a Leica as a selfdefense weapon?

Ray, sorry , but I dont buy into your way of thinking. If you think that we gun-owners are wrong, it is your prerogative to believe so as an American, living in a free society. Similarly, we have the righttoour opinions, on guns and cameras or anything else, and we have the right to lead our lives according to our beliefs. And really, if you want to get me to change my mind about firearms, do you think your 2 nasty posts maligning all law-abiding gun owners are going to change my mind? Think again. I hope that you stay safe, and never have to experience becoming the victim of violent crime like I have, or others in our society have. I think you will see the world in a different light. Like the saying- "a Social Conservative is a Liberal-Leftist who got mugged last night"!!

Springfield? Glock? Come on guys.... If you're a "real" Leica person, you'll carry a Sig P229 .40 S&W !! No extra, silly features like a "safety catch" !!! :-)

Paul, I remember my college days in England very fondly and was thus shocked to read this in the newspaper, for it is not the England that lives on in my mind and heart. The England that to me still represents the highest form of Western civilization. Sorry, unless one has lived in England at length one won't comprehend this sentiment.

 

Not all people living in the US are armed with Glocks and Lugers. Some of us go out only armed with our intellect and wit, and locked and loaded Nikons. Cheers!

I wasn't going to participate in this one but then thought to share a few

real life experiences.

 

I live and make photographs in a fairly dangerous city. For many, many

years I helped train agents of the Wayne County Crime Task Force and

the Detroit Police Department in the use of real Martial Arts tactics (as

opposed to those from Hollywood).

 

There is NO defense against a gun toting criminal that doesn't involve

years of steady training, nerves of steel, and a killer instinct (not to be

confused with the instincts of a killer). The first line of defense is to

avoid situations where a robbery is more likely to take place. Your next

best defense is a well documented insurance policy and a readiness to

surrender your replaceable equipment to a determined, probably drug

emboldened thug. The cops I trained told me that a lot of people who

try to resist, even with a gun, become instant assult or homicide

victims...all for a material item that could be replaced the next day. A vast

majority of the hold-ups are to snatch a item and flee a quickly as

possible. There are exceptions, but the vast majority fit that MO. I am

more highly trained than most. and would simply hand it over, call the

cops to make a report, and then call my insurance agent.

 

To each his or her own. However, the statistics are NOT in favor of

untrained individuals...who are more likely to end up staring at a hospital

ceiling, or worse with dead eyes at the inside lid of their own coffin. All

for a crummy little camera and what little cash a Leica owner might have

after buying one.

Well, it is hard to complain about the self-righteous paranoid person who just gunned you down, but let's just hope most gun carriers aren't like that. I can somewhat understand people's hesitation regarding gun owners, but most are responsible, as highlighted by that murder statistic.

 

As far as Glock goes, well that's a cheap ghetto gun. You want to look at Walther or Beretta I think. The Glock's loose tolerances make it good for burying in the mud, taking it out and firing it, but who wants to do that unless you're the military.

 

Yes, I hope we don't forsake our rights as Americans, and those concerned about that should vote for pro-gun politicians and join the NRA.

 

Escape is always the best route, if you want to go before a jury and a judge pleading your case, good luck I say. I wouldn't want to rely on that unless I was going to suffer severe injury or death unless taking action with a firearm. Otherwise, you're opening yourself up to the law. Also, who wants to live with blasting someone on their conscience?

 

To the foreigners aghast with our firearms, it is the USA, and I am a responsible gun owner with high morals and ethics.

It is often difficult to change one's belief structure even when confronted with the truth.

<p><p>

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/downloads/GunFacts_v3.2.pdf

I apologise for using the word "fools".

I was originally only going to offer some comments in a private

email to those who I thought were of like-mind. Not that I�m

against taking a position, popular or not, but because usually I

keep a very �low-profile� when it comes to these matters. Being

discreet in such areas is generally a very good plan. But since I

believe I have something to add to the discussion, I am stepping

forward.

 

I am pleasantly surprised at the number individuals in favor of

self-defence on this board, whether they chose to use their

hands and feet, tripods, Leica cameras, or more serious tools.

While at least a few posters are surprised or disgusted at the

nature of this thread, or at some of the positions taken, I�m quite

pleased with the healthy exchange of different positions. It would

be nice if our world would tolerate a little more �agreeing to

disagree�.

 

As one who is experienced and skilled in the area of tactics and

weapons, I know that while I�m more prepared and aware of the

danger around me than many citizens (knowledge and training

make it impossible to ignore) I DO try to avoid conflict instead of

seek it out. I�m far from paranoid nor do I feel threatened by

�everyone�. On the contrary, I can handle many situations well,

with limited or no physical force.

 

Others have correctly noted that confident attitudes, postures,

and responses can prevent bad things from occurring. When

this is not enough, being decisive can be helpful and violence

may still be avoided. Does this mean that I will not walk or run

away to avoid a conflict? Certainly not. It is wise to avoid conflict.

Often I have more than myself to worry about. Family or friends

may dictate a different response. Other adults and children will

likely not be able to fight or run as well as I, dictating different

responses to threats.

 

Having and using a camera adds an element to the reality of

street conflict that doesn�t exist when one is not armed with a

camera. Some people may react aggressively because we are,

have, or might take their picture. Or we may be targeted because

we have a camera and are thought to be a tourist (from out of the

area/unfamiliar/vulnerable; which is sometimes a very correct

assessment by the criminals).

 

It is harder to run fast or fight with two Leicas around my neck.

Maybe I will just hand them over; every situations is different. If

avoidance is an option I would rather exercise that choice. And

although my two Leica�s and lenses are only material objects,

worthless compared to my life and health, they did cost me

approximately $7,000.00, a fair sum that would be difficult to

replace easily or immediately. Surely people will kill for pennies

or for the thrill. Don�t think that simply complying with commands

will result in mercy because that is simply not always the case.

 

Sometimes confronting the problem immediately, with force

and/or speed is best. This can be as minor a swinging a tripod

or camera about to save one�s self and property, or using or

preparing to use more traditional weapons.

 

My non-scholarly but experienced observation is that those who

are not willing to stand-up for what is right, either physically or

intellectually, are contributing to the advance of crime and social

break-down. This is reflected on our streets and in our

courtrooms. I understand not wanting to �get-involved� as

sometimes it is prudent, though individuals need to be involved

so we can be collectively more secure.

 

I�m also cautious of the idea that only the well trained should

resist. While the average citizen may not be well trained, letting

others protect you is not generally effective unless they are there

at the critical moment. The �protection� provided by the police and

the armies of the world are generally only effective for society in

general, not for the individual. Self-defense is usually the most

effective �defence�.

 

Training is good, but mind-set is more important. Are you willing

to counter attack immediately and as violently as necessary?

(every circumstance is different) Regular �able bodied men� can

be very effective when they are truly willing. Your children or wife

being attacked or targeted may motivate you to do things you did

not think were possible or likely before.

 

People that base their opinions about they real world on police

or crime movies, or T.V. shows, are ignorant and naive. Even

�real� T.V. programs are showing highly edited and rare

circumstances that are poor examples of daily of reality.

 

I do not have the answers. Though I believe we need to change

things collectively. We cannot let �them� do it for us.

 

Those who have suggested staying out of a courtroom are wise

and correct.

 

I hope everyone has a peaceful holiday season and new year...

 

Sincerely,

Not everyone has the youth or physique to benefit from self-defense training. I have found that tear gas is a good companion when street-shooting. A jet in the face followed by a crack from a Nikon F should subdue about anyone.

Sid, I don't believe I maligned all law abiding gun owners anywhere in my post, at least that wasn't my intention. If you interpreted it so, I'm sorry. I also don't think I said you didn't have the right to your opinion, but it does appear you're a little sensitive to me expressing mine. I know this is a very emotional issue to many gun owners and guns rights activists, although I'll admit I've never quite understood why. If you don't think I've ever been in a situation of danger enough to see a threat to my life, you'd be wrong in that assumption. But it's not been my choice to react to it and live in a posture of fear by carrying a gun. I can't see it as anything but negative energy to have my basic approach to social situations include lethal firepower up my sleeve at all times. I don't have that low an opinion of mankind, frankly. If I lived in a war zone it might be different, but I don't, and I don't assume people are out to get me. I have faith enough in my right to walk around as a free man, and that things will work out alright for me. You can call that foolish if you want. In the end it's your choice, I never said it wasn't, and each person has different reasons for choosing his way, be it their particular experience with violence or whatever. I'm just expressing my opinion, and I still think much of gun carrying involves paranoia. It's dangerous getting in your car in the morning too, maybe an armored vehicle would be in order, I don't know. Life is a risk, anything can happen, but how much time of it you want to choose thinking about the bad things that might befall you is your choice. I choose to trust in the positive as much as possible. Guns don't guarantee anyone's survival anyway, nothing does.

"Not everyone has the youth or physique to benefit from self-defense training. I have found that tear gas is a good companion when street-shooting. A jet in the face followed by a crack from a Nikon F should subdue about anyone."

 

A Christian speaks.

 

I can't imagine how anyone can believe that their hobby is worth getting violent over. If streetphotography is so dangerous that it can to lead to potentially fatal confrontations, go and photograph flowers or nudes. Of course, if you're a professional photographer, then that is different - but I don't imagine that David Alan Harvey and his like believe that fear and distrust are the key to good pictures, let alone carrying a weapon.

"I have found that tear gas is a good companion when street-shooting. A jet in the face followed by a crack from a Nikon F should subdue about anyone."

 

Are you serious? After reading some of these posts again I have to wonder. What is it with some of you when you're out shooting on the streets? Where are you going out to shoot? Afghanistan? Or are your fears imagined from watching way too much TV? I've been shooting in public spaces for 25 years and have encountered a couple dirty looks and a polite request to stop photographing. That's it. What's the deal here? What am I missing?... Tell me, I've heard very little actual real experience conflict from anyone on this thread so far, but plenty of reasons why we need protection from it.

Rob, you took my thunder... uh, quote. Ah well, all the same. ;)

Among my photographic equipments, R5 is quite heavy, but I think the

strap lugs may not be strong enough.<p>

My all steel tripod has sharp steel head, is better than cameras<div></div>

If you want to put a real hurtin' on someone, use a Zeiss-Ikon Contarex "Bullseye."

 

OT: About eight years ago, I worked with a guy at a newspaper Poughkeepsie, N.Y. One day, he came into the office and said, "Some guy tried to mug me in the parking lot. He said, 'Give me all your money.'"

 

My co-worker said to the guy, "Are you prepared to fight me for it?"

 

He said the would-be mugger seemed surprised and didn't know what to say and simply walked away without doing anything else.

 

Moral? Hmmm ... don't know. I guess you should ask an intelligent question and confuse the criminal.

This thread has confirmed the time has come to leave the Leica forum.

 

Thanks to everyone whose helped me along the way.

Bye Rav!

<<Recent figures published by the U.N. show that Britain is now among the most crime-ridden countries in the world: Its citizens are much more likely to be robbed on the street>>

 

Three years ago 4th of July weekend I took my wife to London as a surprise gift for our 20th wedding anniversary. We stayed in a decent hotel in Kensington on a busy street. At about 10PM I walked outside, crossed the street to have a cigar and take a photo of the lit-up hotel front. While standing there with my chrome M6 and 50/2 around my neck, two shaved-head young men walked my way; one stopped on my left and the other walked past, turned and stopped on my right. My mind went into defense mode and I readied myself to some kind of action. There was a lot of traffic on the street so running across would have gotten me run over. To my back was buildings about 10 ft away, and of course they had me blocked left and right, so I expected to have to disable them before being able to run. I figured the lit cigar and the Leica would somehow figure into that. Then the guy on my right started cursing me out--about my cigar, offering to pleasure my mother, etc. At that point I realized that neither robbery not assault was their immediate intent. So I simply stood there with a slightly relaxed posture, staring him icily in the eye, and said nothing. Finally he ran out of curses, the guy on my left evidently got bored and started walking away, and at that point the big mouth began walking away also, and I didn't move or let up my stare. When he was about 10 ft away he said "what the f-- are you staring at" and at that point I replied calmly but authoritatively "good night"; he turned and they both walked off. This illustrates a couple points. 1)It's not always true that "the best defense is a good offense". In this case had I attacked, the results could have been catastrophic, for me as well as them. 2)Sometimes it is true that "if you run, you're prey". I think the fact that I stood my ground in a non-threatening way totally unnerved them and defused the situation. It wasn't what they were expecting, and in retrospect I think their inner little voices were telling them "stop and wonder why this guy isn't afraid of you two".

 

In another vein, I choose not to carry a gun because unarmed I am very conservative in where and when I go places and my "antennae" are always turned up and tuned in to my surroundings. I'm afraid that carrying a weapon would be more of a liability than an asset...and I am a serious shooting enthusiast who can handle a handgun with ease and accuracy under pressure.

I've been to England quite a few times (London, Cambridge, Norwich)and have never had even a hint of a problem. I'd feel much safer walking the streets of London than New York City, where I have been accosted quite a few times and mugged once.

 

Jay is right, don't fight unless you absolutely have too. And I would think that Nikons (which are huge and clunky) make better weapons than dainty little M Leicas.

I have a CCW, but I rarely if ever carry a handgun concealed. My main reason for the permit is so I can have a gun in my car going to and from a range, or maybe if I am making an over night road trip within the state. If I am stopped by a police officer, I can save myself from a possible felony. Anyone envisioning themselves as shooting it out with some bad guys has watched too many Bruce Willis movies. The lawyers would eat you alive and YOU would end up doing time. I suppose if you could absolutely PROVE that you honestly feared for your life, and there was no other way out, you could get away with shooting someone on the street. I guess the best way to safeguard yourself and your Leica equipment would be to use common sense where you go. If you do plan to go in harm's way, taking classes in non lethal self defense might help. I strongly believe in being able to own firearms, but walking around heavily armed and ready to blow away people is not one of my secret pleasures.

Regards, John

"Those who carried materials did their work with one hand and held their weapon in the other, and each of the builders wore his sword at his side as he worked" OLD TESTAMENT - Neh 4:17-18 (NIV)

John O. I take exception to a comment you made earlier in this

thread about the tough gun laws in New York State and the "high

number of gun deaths in NYC." THIS IS INCORRECT. In fact our

murder rate is again down another 10% this year and is equal to

that of 1963 !!! Tough gun laws and even tougher

policing/sentencing have made a great difference in our city. I

cordially invite all of you to come to the big Apple and see for

yourself ! (:>))) As to Jay's comments: I could not agree more

emphatically. I am rated a distinguished expert in both handguns

and rifles by the NRA and know enough about them so as to

never carry one. Why you may ask ? Simple answer. If you are

not prepared to use it and kill your assaillant, it will be used on

you. I would rather lose my Leicas than my life in this deal.

Albert, perhaps I did not make my point clear enough, or you misunderstood me. I was trying to say that very restrictive gun laws do not guarantee that gun crimes will go away, or that making hand gun illegal to own will stop these crimes. New York City DOES have the toughest gun laws - I used to be a resident there. What slows down the murder rate IS increased law enforcement and prosecution of criminals, so are not in disagreement. By the way, do you shoot High Power, Albert? I do.

Regards, John

I used my cased and straped M6/35 to swing at the mangy dogs of Guatemala that chase me while I bike. I haven`t hit one yet.

If you have access to a lawyer, I suggest a 2 minute conversation with

him or her to understand exactly what will happen in your State if you

gun down a person trying to steal something from you. Some of you

folks watch to much TV.