600mm APO-Ronar vs 600mm APO-Germinar...but wait, there is more

Hi all,

 

I am in a precarious position with a person from whom I ordered a lens.

 

Here was the origional deal, either:

 

Zeiss 600mm APO-Germinar lens (barrel) new for Euro 215 or,

 

Rodenstock 9/600mm APO- Ronar (also barrel) coated with linear f-stop

scale for Euro 150.

 

The lens is to be used on my 12X15" camera with a Packard shutter

installed behind the lensboard. The seller is the same guy from whom I

purchased my 12X15" camera, hence the overall good prices.

 

I decided on the Apo-Germinar lens, and sent payment. Payment was

received and I receive an email from the seller last night saying that

he discovered a sort of "film" on the inside of the lens. Seeing as

how the lens is new, he could not explain it. (He is also a reputable

guy, so this is not an ebay bait and switch by any means)

 

So here is where the deal stands, I could either take the lens I

ordered in the less than perfect condition and try cleaning it myself,

(which he indicated would be difficult due to the construction of the

lens) or, take the Apo-Ronar instead and get the difference refunded.

 

I could also ask for the Germinar lens with a few Euros knocked off

the sale price to compensate for the cost of having it professionally

clened, but this was not part of his "offer".

 

Is anybody familiar with the construction of the Zeiss Apo-Germinar

barrel lens? And would it be possible to tackle a job like that myself?

 

How about practical experience with either one of these lenses? I've

read the archives, and did find praise for both lenses, but a side by

side comparison was not to be found.

 

Your opinions would be appreciated.

Hi William,

 

as far as I can remenber, the design is the same. What does it mean: "film"? If it's in barrel mount, one can unsrew the front and back elements as one part. If the "film" is inside towards the f-stop, it can perhaps be removed. Ask the seller wether he would try this for you. Otherwise stick to the Apo-Ronar which will be good enough if in good condition. The dialyte-type is senible to mounting and centering, so don't try to unscrew the single lenses. Rodenstock glued them in the mounting in the version with lower tolerances (CL if i remember right). Docter Optics offerd a spacing-ring to give up the symmetry and optimize the lens for infinity.

Hi William,

 

although I don't have a barrel Apo-Germinar, I would suspect that taking the cells out of the barrel is the same as for a shuttered one, although with different thread sizes maybe - just unscrew them. If you need to go further in, you need special tools. I'll check tonight what kind of retaining ring my 300mm Apo-G. (with shutter) has. I do have data sheets from Docter on the Apo-Germinars, showing the lens cross section (but not the mechanical parts) and the MTF curves for 1:1. I can scan the 600mm if you're interested.

 

I did a direct comparison of the 300mm Apo-Germinar and Apo-Ronars years ago - resolution charts on TMAX 100, so the usual caveats for this kind of test apply. There was no difference between them.

 

In your case, however,the 600mm Apo-Germinar uses 6 lenses and the Apo-Ronar is a 4-lens objective. That might affect performance (or it might not), but it will most probably affect weight. Both are single coated, I guess. I use an old 600mm Apo-Ronar myself for 8x10 (in a Compound no.5) and its already the heaviest lens I own. It performs quite well, but I only do contacts with 8x10 anyway.

Thomas: What he was referring to was a "Schleier" on one of the inside elements.

 

He is experienced with LF lenses, and if it were just a matter of unscrewing the lens to clean the elements, he would have certainly offered to do so. He certainly lead me to believe that the cleaning in this case had to be done by a pro. I then called my lens/shutter man to ask about a price to clean the lens. Of course he wanted to see it first before talking price.

 

It sounds to me like the difference, if any at all (in terms of performance) are minimal.

I guess the best bet would be to go with the Apo-Ronar. BTW, according to the seller, the Germinar is not a coated lens.

Well he is not offering you a 600 mm APO Ronar. There are none with a

linearized scale.

 

He is offering the 600mm Apo Ronar CL process lens. The CL series had a

linear aperature scale. The Apo Ronar series did not. The 600, 800 and

1200mm Apo Ronar CL lenses are 6 element designs. The shorter ones were

4 element.

Thanks Bob.

But what does that really mean? Are the Ronar CL lenses better or worse than the "regular" Apo-Ronar? And being a six element design, how would that play a role in the over all quality of the lens and the resulting image?

 

All of your expertise is really appreciated. I was never a real wiz when it comes to optics. I know what a sharp negative looks like, but that's where my knowlegde begins to "slow down".

All it means is that a linear aperture scale is only on the CL and to deliver the

expected results for copying they made the lens 6 elements.

 

It doesn't mean much for landscape work as it was never designed for that

application. It was made to only be used at f32 however since it is 600mm and

longer. Shorter they were only designed to be used at f22.

One more comment, question .... and Arne I hope you are still reading since

you know a goo dbit more about these lenses than I do.

 

William, you said in your original post that it was a "Zeiss" Apo Germinar NOT

a DOCTER Apo Germinar. While the two lenses are mechanically and

potically the same I only mention it as aquestion of age. Docter bought the

East German Zeiss LF manufacturing facility right after unification and, thus, if

it were manufactured in the past decade yoru lens would be marked Docteror

Docter, Wetzler not Zeiss. IF the lens is new old stock dating back to the Zeiss

days what the selle ris eeeing could be a deterioration of the cement between

two elements, easy enough for a professional to fix.

 

FYI the image circle of the Apo Germinar, from an email from Arne to me, from

a typed chart he got from the factory is: 9/600mm: 585mm (at f22).

 

Luck,

 

Ted

If the Apo-Germinar is not coated at all, as William indicated, and is marked Zeiss, it sure is an old version of the lens, even old for GDR standards. As far as I know, the elements are NOT cemented (AFAIK, this is also true for the 6-element Apo-Ronars - Bob may correct me there if I am wrong), so the "Schleier" should not be cement gone bad. If the lenses are really not coated at all, 6 elements mean 12 air-glass surfaces, which would result in considerable flare. I'd go for the Ronar in that case.

Well now it's getting interesting. The lens is definatly marked as Zeiss, and is NOS. I saw a picture of the identical lens, which the seller was selling on the German Ebay a few weeks back. It looked juicy enough to make me want to choose it over the Apo-Ronar CL.

 

But I will be wanting to use this lens for landscape and architectural work with my 12X15" Thornton Pickard camera. I will of course only be contact printing. So the question is, if the Ronar CL top out at f32, what kind of results can I expect from the lens if I stop down to f64 or f90?

 

I suppose at the price I'll be getting the lens at, I'm sure making a big fuss, but now that a few optic experts have shown an interest in this thread, I might as well pick their brains.

 

Thanks to all who have contributed their knowledge!

Hi,

 

as said before, the 6-element is all-air spaced, there is no cement. The elns is as well coated, and shooting the Apo Ronar and the Apo Germinar side by side you may recognize that the Apo Germinar is very, very good. There were two versions though, one all-brass and HEAVY and the last one with aluminum body, thus lighter.

 

There also was a special Apo Germinar S 9/600, very rare 6-element four cell multi-coated version.

 

Best

 

Joerg

Hi again,

 

you can take the Apo Germinar 9/600 apart from the rear cell, loosen the rear screws, and slide away the rear element and thus clean from any haze or dust between the cells. When putting back make sure you set into the same orientation.

 

The Apo Ronars were made as four element dialyte (Artar type) lenses from 150mm through 1200 mm. As of 600 mm through 1200mm the Apo Ronars were as well offered as 6-element all-air-spaced versions. These were made for the most demanding jobs, and prices were accordingly. The 9/800 is of an older, also 6-element design.

 

There were 3 barrel versions: one with non-linear f-stop scale, one with linear scale (e.g. Apo Ronar 9/600 L) and then the CL-versions.

 

Interestingly the 6-element all-air-spaced versions of the Apo Germinars and the Apo Ronars are very similar in design.

 

Just to complete this: There were also 8-element Apo Ronars e.g. Apo Ronar 16/1000.

 

Al above lenses were made to very tight tolerances, and are able to offer very acceptable infinity performance when stopped down a bit.

 

Best

 

Joerg

I just checked my 300mm Apo-Germinar, and both the front and the back lens of each cell are held in place by the usual slotted retaining ring, so if you have a tool for those, its possible to open them.

 

Re coating: The single coating on my Apo-G. does not have a very distinct reflection color, as opposed to the common blue-magenta single coating. They are coated, however, and its obvious when compared to a really uncoated lens, but may not be so obvious on its own.

 

Jörg, interesting infomation on the Apo-Ronars. I have a German pocess lens brochure from Rodenstock, printed in 1982. That one lists only the 1000mm and 1200mm as 6 element lenses, both as "regular" Ronars and as CL versions. That was the base for my comment that the 600mm is 4 elements (and it means that a "600mm CL" can be either 4 or 6 elements). I guess they changed their product line with time, even for the same focal length. Do you know when they made the 6-element ones?

 

Oh, my 4-Element 600mm f/9 Apo Ronar is about 1700g with the Compound shutter...

Thanks Arne. I get the feeling I'm going to be taking my chances with the Germinar after all. It sounds like a cleaning job that either I, or atleast my lens/shutter guy can tackle.

 

BTW, I'm pretty sure the housing is aluminum and not brass, but with a camera the size of this 12X15, a few hundred grams won't make much of a difference one way or another.

Ok, the Docter version of the 600mm Apo-Germinar in barrel is listed with 2.35kg...

Hi,

 

my Apo Germinar 9/600 (6-element/aluminum) weighs 1900 grams and the Apo Ronar CL 9/600 (4-element/aluminum) has 1560 grams.

 

Best

 

Joerg

Hi Arne,

 

I tried to see you at Freiberg yesterday, you were on a business trip.

Will come back top you with info on the "Germinar W" line.

 

Best

 

Joerg

The Germinar has an Aluminum housing and the Ronar is an "L" design.

 

The seller can not say for sure if the haze is a fungus or not. If so, it's probably fit to be recycled.

The seller has made the offer to let me check out the lens and attempt a cleaning. If it doesn't do the trick, I can have the Apo Ronar L instead. All I have to cover is the additional postage cowsts.

 

Any last comments? Thanks again!

William,

 

let us know how the project works out once you have the lens in hand.

For all of you guys in the know, what is an Apo Ronar S then. I have one in 800 MM/32 inch that is marked Klimsch, and also 24 inch Klimsch that doesn't have any letter designation or millimeter designation.

Kevin,

 

your Apo Ronar S 9/800 is definitely a six-element four-cell design,

therefore different from the late 6-element all-air spaced Apo Ronars (600/1000/1200), and may be also different from the standard 9/800 they made. It may be a somewhat older version, literature at least describes such a design. "Klimsch" was the leading repro-supplier in Europe, shut down ten to fifteen years ago.

 

Hope this helps a bit.

 

Best regards

 

Joerg

Re :<i>"Well he is not offering you a 600 mm APO Ronar. There are none with a linearized scale.

 

He is offering the 600mm Apo Ronar CL process lens. The CL series had a linear aperature scale. The Apo Ronar series did not. The 600, 800 and 1200mm Apo Ronar CL lenses are 6 element designs. The shorter ones were 4 element."</i> - - BOB Salomon-- <BR><br>Our 600mm F9 Apo Ronar on our process camera has a non linear scale; just like Bob said. It is serial 88xxxxx; an was bought new in 1979. It is marked 600mm / 24 inch. many process lenses are also marked in inches also on their barrels. Our longer lens is a 890mm F14 / 35 inch Apo Ronar; and shortest is a 360mm F9 Apo Ronar; marked with "14 inch" on barrel. Our lenses work best @f22; and F32 for the longest one. <BR><BR>For extremely detailed map making; some firms used the 6 element Apo-Ronars for process cameras. I have rarely seen these surplus; while the Apo-Ronars pop up all the time; and go cheap; because process cameras are rarely used today. Most all of the cameras

have been scraped; but the lenses make it to Ebay to probably drive Bob alittle batty with all the goofy questions. Process cameras such as ours use high contrast films; and studio lighting. Contrast is bloody high; because of these conditions. For usage outdoors; the ronar needs a BIG hood; and isnt going to win any sharpness awards. But they are dirt cheap; and are usefull as a start.

To test my 600mm or 890mm APO Ronar at infinity; I would have to cut a huge wall to the outside; in our darkroom. The rail length is 17 feet. Maybe I could cut the rail in half or a third; and mount the Process camera in the bed of a pickup truck. :) There is a rotor sector shutter behind the lens. The electical breaker to the camera,lights,vacuum plate is 240 Vac 60 amps.....Biggest draw is the Pulsed Xenon lamps; 6000W total. <A HREF="http://www.ezshots.com/members/tripods/images/tripods-306.jpg" target = "_blank">

<IMG SRC="http://www.ezshots.com/members/tripods/thumbs/tripods-306-thumb.jpg" BORDER=0></A>

We're getting off topic here, but I'm not sure it's true that all 600mm APO-Ronar-CLs have 6 elements. I've got a 600mm/9 APO-Ronar-CL with serial # 10,342,467 (circa <A HREF="http://www.bigshotz.co.nz/schneider.html">1979 - 1984</A>) which, I think, has only 4 elements. It weighs 1563 grams and is 85mm long. I don't think this is enough weight or bulk for a 6 element version. (You'd think one could count the elements by looking carefully, but all this does is make me dizzy.)

<P>

Here's what <A TARGET="_new" HREF="http://www.rodenstockoptics.com/process_1.htm">Rodenstock has to say</A> about the current/last incarnation of the APO-Ronar-CL. It's not much.

Ok I'll throw out a guess here; maybe I am all wet.....<BR><BR>Our Big Process camera was purchased in the late 1970's. I dont remember a APO-RONAR in "CL" version being available; or marketed at ttah time... BUT I remember that a few of the longer APO RONAR's were available in 6 element design; for "super mapping" Process cameras...<BR><BR>Does the "CL" just mean a fancy lens coating? All our 1970's vintage Apo Ronar Process lens are coated; but they are single coated that doesnt really "jump out as being a coated lens". They must be inspected to catch a reflection; to see the coating..Could it be these Process camera lenses had a coating for blue light; because alot of the time they are used with ortho film? Regular view camera single coated lenses have more "vivid appearing" coatings. This is only a wild guess.............Maybe the CL means multicoating; or iso 900X?