wides on press/technichal cameras

hello. i am an archaeologist by proffesion, and after a couple of

years of using 35mm/6x6 slrs i am considering a large format camera

largley for the movements available when photographing buildings

etc. because i a have to provide my own equipment, and travel with

it an expensive camera such as a linhof, or a bulky monorail like a

sinar is not really an option.

 

therefore i have been tending to favour the MPP MK VII and graflex

type cameras.

 

the problem is, as far as i understand that due to the bellows in

these cameras the use of wide wide angles is impossible, such as

65mm, 75mm lenses and so on. this is important because my the lens

i use the most is 20mm nikkor in 35mm .

 

what is the widest wide i can use on these cameras, and is it

possible to use recessed lensboards or suchlike and get away with it?

 

also, due to the prohibitive cost of buying and processing 5x4 (and

scanning) tranny film i would also like to know the coverage of

these lenses with a 6X9 and 6X12 roll film back.

You may have several problems in front of you.

1) Compression of the bellows will make it harder to focus and harder to use the rise or shift movements

 

2) For 4x5, a 58mm lens = 17mm on 35mm film, likewise:

65mm is equivalent to 18mm on 35mm film and

75mm is about 21mm on 35mm film.

 

3) Vertical alignment will become increasingly more difficult for you is you use the shorter focal length lenses. It is more critical and you have a harder time seeing the corners due to the "hot spot" in the center of the frame.

 

4) Using any camera with a folding down bed means there is potential for the bed to show up in your picture, unless there are controls to move it out of the way. Bottom line is it's more work for you.

 

If I were you, I'd look at any of the 4x5 monorail cameras. There's a lot of used equipment available that you can get for a fraction of the price (new).

 

Another possible alternative: Investigate and/or invest in a Cambo Wide or a similar camera from GranView or maybe even a custom Hobo. The Cambo comes with a graflock back, so 6x12 is possible, besides 4x5 of course. Parallel alignment of the lens and negative plane is permanent, but you do have shift and rise movements available to you. The Cambo used, with lens, will cost you more than a monorail, but it is small and convenient and very quick to use. More info can be found at Calumet.

David, at the risk of appearing to be dis-loyal to my fellow large format photographers, I am going to recommend that you look into the possibility of using a Mamiya or a Pentax 6X7 medium format camera for your archeological work. Either type of camera would be an easier step-up from the 35mm camera you are now using. They would be more convenient for airline travel, especially since the Sept.11th security restrictions went into effect. There is a wide choice of lens types and focal lengths for those cameras. Perspective control and macro lenses are available. Film and processing costs for rollfilm cameras is much more economical, especially if you are using color materials. The cost of a medium format outfit would be comparable to a LF outfit when you include the accessories needed to put a decent LF outfit together.

David: I have been a professional for 40 years, and I shoot LF with A Linhof Super Technika V. I use a 75mm Zeiss Biogon (last generation) and a modern Rodenstock Grandigon-N f-4.5. Both work great and deliver outstanding results. You will need, however, the recent Linhof VF to get the best results...especially for the 75mm focal length. No sweat...both work like a champ, are razor sharp, and deliver outstanding images....even hand held. Richard Boulware - Denver.

a field camera is a much better choice for you than a monorail. a

metal field is far more rugged, packs more compactly, and is

more easily protected from dust, etc. than a 'rail. also, you do not

need the wide range of movements a rail offers. little movement

is required for wideangle work. now to use a 65mm easily on a

field (or technical or whatever term you like) you have to look for a

camera with some special features: (1) a drop bed to keep the

bed out of the way when you shoot, (2) a compressible bellows,

(3) ability to make some movements with such little room

between standards. the obvious choice for you is a beater linhof

technika IV. it has all of these features. plus linhof made a cool

gizmo called the "wide angle focusing device." it is a mini view

camera that clips into the regular board mount. it allows very

precise focus with a wide. they are cheap and easy to find. you

can leave your 65mm (or whatever) mounted on it all the time

instead of a regular board. so equipped the tech iv will suit your

needs to a tee. you can acquire lots of tinu cheap lenses for the

camera as the need arises (a 65mm angulon can be had for

$200 and twenty of them weigh less than a single MF SLR lens).

you can also use the tech iv hanheld quite easily with the rf. you

will love using it. market price is less than $1000 on ebay.

$1500 or so for a kit with a roll back. stay away from the tech iii

for reasons you can read about in archived threads. i should

also add that 6x9 and 6x12 backs are redaily available for the

technika.

The Master Technika 2000 takes lenses down to a 35mm. The Master

Technika takes lenses down to 55mm.

There is no need to switch to LF (or MF) systems to avail yourself of the benefits of lens movements. The Canon line of lenses for their 35mm cameras includes three which provide shift and tilt movements. They are 24mm, 45mm, and 90mm.

On a Supergraphics, you can use 65mm and 47mm lenses without a recessed board, but will not be able to use movements

David,

 

I have an MPP mk7 and use a 90mm f/6.8 Angulon and a 65mm f/8 Super Angulon as my current wide lenses. Neither of these lenses have much by way of movements on to 4x5 so i am looking at alternatives. Having studied the options i think a Super Angulon 90mm f/8 and the Grandagon 75 f/6.8 are my best options as reasonable movements are possible.

 

On to roll film my current lenses give quite a bit of movement but of course the effective focal length is increased.

 

There are ways of significantly improving the MPP's wide angle performance. Camera Bellows do a wide angle bellows for the MPP series which restrict movements less than the standard bellows. And for the manic mechanics making an opening flap at the top of the body allows a good deal more rise. I have made sliding panel lensboards which also help.

If a T/S is not going to do it for you on your 35mm / 6x6, I think I'd

agree with the Tech IV suggestion. The only matter you'll have to

figure out is approx what degree of back movements is going to

work for you to get correct perspectives. A good alternative

choice I'd recommend is the Shen Hao. A very nice little camera,

if but slightly weighty, but seemingly strong.

Although some back movements are available on the Technika, I find it rather inconvenient in practice, and considered it suitable only for occasional, and not routine use. I believe that MPP and Gandolfi Traditional cameras have a similar arrangement.

I really like my MPP VII for most things but if I wanted to use superwide lenses such as the recent Schieder 47mm and 58mm I would recommend buying a cheap used Cambo. These are inexpensive and they will offer more movements and more flexibility for wideangles.

 

The MPP was designed to use a cone lenseboard with lenses such as 75 and 90mm and to operate on the track inside the bodies with the fron dropped but there is little scope for movements and these cones are not easy to find. I have 2, one centred for normal use and one with an offset cone that gives a rise of about 20mm.

 

In contrast even the most basic monorail with a bag bellows and a recessed lens board will offer more movements. At current prices a used Cambo with the necessary accessories will be far cheaper than a Mamiya 6x7

I use to have a technika V 4x5, i've sold it, because i prefer tu use roll film when i'm travelling ( how to carry a box of 4x5 thrue the airport custom...the weight of holders...price of film and processing...10 exp. on a 120 using 6x7 back).

Now i'm using a technikardan S 4x5, and i'm able to use a 47xl with a 6x7 back without restriction, you need this kind of product ! The best alternative for you is a second hand arca swiss F line 6x9 with a 47xl and a 75 or 80...check all good comments in the archive about this camera. You can also buy an arca discovery 4x5 and a horseman 6x9 back, it's cheaper, but bigger !

Anyway don't go with a press style camera if you need real MOVEMENTS, especially with roll film.

What's the point of using a press camera with a special camera device (linhof), to be able to use a 65, if you loose all movements facilities ?

The Technikardan 45S also accepts lenses as short as 35mm.

David, if you want to shoot rail film and need a really wide angle, get a Century or 2x3 Pacemaker Crown Graphic. Both will accept the 35/I forget what Apo Grandagon. The bellows does not compress completely, so, although the front standard will be on the inner rails minimal movements (rise, a little shift) are available. Rise is limited by the wire frame finder, but it can be extracted from the front standard. Takes dissasembly, but.

 

If you need more even illumination than the ApoGrandagon will give and can live with some vignetting (as I measure it, the image circle is 84 mm), I'll be putting a 38/4.5 Biogon in an inoperable solenoid-actuated shutter on eBay this Sunday. Steve Grimes remounted one of these in a Copal 0 for me, I use it on a Century Graphic. Works very well. The propaganda and hyperbolic statements by users are true.

 

The Apo-Grandagon covers a ~125 mm circle, and will give you a larger angle of view than your 20mm lens on 35 mm. The largest 2:3 rectangle the Biogon will cover is ~ 46 x 70 mm, roughly equivalent to what your 20mm gives you on 35.

 

Cheers,

 

Dan

Would it be possibe to adapt an MPP or graflex to take a bag bellows? would this have much of an advantage?

I use a 90mm Ilex-Caltar on my Crown, and get great results with full movements. Supposedly, both the Speed and Crown Graphic will focus a 65mm lens, and the Crown can focus an even shorter lens. The focal plane shutter on a Speed takes up the room you need to use a lens wider than 65mm. So, no need for a bag bellows. Coverage is another story -- I don't think most 65mm lenses would completely cover 4x5, but if you want to use a roll film back you'd be all set. It would be a low-cost alternative -- I'm an archaeologist too, and I couldn't afford a Linhof either! See www.graflex.org for more info.

Daniel, according to Graphic Graflex Photography, 9th ed, only the 2x3 Crown/Century will focus a 65. FWIW, I have a 65 Raptar that works fine on my Century, won't make infinity on my 2x3 Pacemaker Speed. I also have a bizarre 65 SA clone (maybe) from an unnamed manufacturer in Rochester. It makes infinity on my Speed, but with it in place the camera won't close. There are 65s and 65s.

 

Cheers,

 

Dan

I use one of the older 5x7 Toyo Field cameras that was factory configured to be a 4x5, and I routinely use a 65 mm f8 Super Angulon on it.

 

That lens lacks much image circle and the bellows is bound up pretty good when it's in the shooting position, but it does work. If you were to get a 75 and perhaps a recessed lens board you would get more coverage and a freer bellows, although with a longer lens.

 

The other trick that I've considered for the 65 is to get an extra lens board and have it drilled with the lens mount off centre. The hole would be a few mm higher than normal. Then when I mount the lens I'd get a little bit of "free" rise, without binding the bellows any more than when it was in the neutral position. If I inverted the lens I'd reverse this effect and get "free" fall. With the lens mounted side ways I'd get shift, and so on.

 

Anyway this camera is cheap, well made and can use WA's. Since it is "really" a 5x7 Toyo made it with a long (for its time) 16" bellows so lenses like a 300 mm can be used easily, on the chance that you want to do some closer shots.

Based on your post, the critical test for any camera is whether or not one can use a 47mm wide-angle lens with movements. This lens corresponds to a 20mm in a 35mm camera, which you indicate is your most used lens. For 6x9 architectural photography, it would be your 2nd most used lens. Using this lens on a Technika, Graflex, or MPP would be a nightmare.

 

Since it corresponds to your most used lens, consider going the max and getting the 47mm XL Super Angulon. Expensive, but it has fantastic movements, and it would cover 6x12 with movements. However, I think the f5.6 would do the job for 6x9, but it would not cover 6x12. The f8 version would have insufficient movements. I would also obtain a 58mm, 75mm Super Angulon lenses, and other lenses plasmat lenses that you would need (e.g. 100 Apo-Symmar?) You could get a 65mm lens, but due to it's wider coverage, a 58mm would be better. The 58mm would be about your most used lens, and the 75mm would be your least used lens for architecture. The 75mm could be in the f8 aperture, but the f5.6 would be better if you ever want to do architecture in 4x5. I like Schneider lenses personally, but Rodenstock and Nikon have their equivalents. They are all fine lenses.

 

Comparing 35mm to 6x9, multiply the 35mm lens focal length by 2.38 to obtain the equivalent in 6x9. So, a 47mm lens on 6x9 would be 20mm on a 35mm camera, 58mm on 6x9 like a 24mm, a 75mm on 6x9 to about a 35mm, and so on.

 

As to cameras, one has a more difficult choice. There are definitely cameras that will work, but you may need to find middle ground between expense and bulk. For example, a Cambo SF23 would work w/the 4x5 conversion. You could use the 6x9 most of the time and swap to the 4x5 on those occassions where you need the 6x12. Or, just purchase the 4x5. This outfit is bulky, but it's comparatively reasonable in price. A Calumet 45NXII is very reasonable in price, but bulky. (See www.calumetphoto.com.) A new Classic-F Arca would be excellent, but while it can be relatively compact, it's expensive. A possibility is an Arca Discovery (for expense) purchased with the wide-angle bellows and either a collapsable or the 300mm telescoping rail. With the telescoping rail, one removes the camera and 15cm rail and stores the remainder of the base elsewhere. (i.e. relatively compact.) (See www.thefstop.com.) I have an Arca and love it. The Technikardon with a wide-angle bellows would pack well. These sell used at approximately $2000 w/out the additional bellows. Another possibility is the Wisner 4x5 Pocket View. (See www.wisner.com.) Expensive, but compact. Whatever camera you get, the critical test is whether it can use a 47mm with movements. You will also need a wide-angle bellows. With some cameras, like the Arca, that's possibly the only bellows you would need.

 

Check reviews at www.lfphoto.info or www.camerareview.com. For example, it would appear that a Shen-Hao would work. But, a review at the latter site indicated that 55mm is about the shortest lens that one can practicably use, even with the wide-angle bellows.

As an added thought, consider the lensboard size. Since your are traveling, you don't want to get a camera who's only option is to use huge lensboards. In many cases, you can get a reduction lensboard that adapts to a smaller lensboard.

David,

 

Although a socio-cultural anthropologist, I have done a fair amount of archaeological photography. I found, and of course your sites will determine what you need, that I used quite a bit of movement, particularly front drop in the sites I worked in. If this is the case, and you are a 'digger' I would suggest that you do not buy a technical cameras like the MPP or the Graflex. These cameras do not have any built-in front standard drop, rather you must drop the bed, and then tilt the lens. A real pain. My suggestion is to look for a portable 'rail' camera, such as the metal 4x5 Canham, or the Linhof Technikardan. However, these are not cheap.

David, I own two graflex cameras, a super graphic with front tilt, shift, rise and fall. It's built like a tank but you will be limited to 5x4 sheet film, unless you buy an adapter. The other is a speed graphic. Both are a little to heave for easy travel.

 

Lately I have been using a

Gowland monorail 4x5 view (1.2 Lbs!!) that accepts lenses all the way down to 58mm without a recessed board. If I used a lot of movements though, I would make the recessed board as the bellows does bind.

 

I think the best option for you might be a Galvin view camera. It is a monorail, made to take 2x3 graflex roll film backs. It has all movements and takes lenses for some extreem wide angle photography in this format. Check ebay. I can't remember if Jim Galvin has his own website but it wouldn't hurt to do a search there as well.

 

Good Luck

PS The galvin is also ultralight, like the gowland. I believe it also has positive detents to zero out all the settings for straight on shooting.

cheers for the advice guys

 

have been looking at cambo wides- not enough movement really-and i am not sure i can afford one.

 

how heavy is a monorail? how easy are they to fly with?

 

is it possible to fit/ adapt a flat bed tech/press camera to accept bag bellows and maybe even slightly more movements?

 

those of you that have said you have done this kind of photography before will understand the issues- trying to take pictures of a vertical elavation looking down a small hole - converging verticals, taking pictures at the bottom of a small hole and not being able to move far enough back.... its a nightmare and movements would be groovy.