N 80 question..(focus and such)

Hi everyone.

 

I did a search for the answers to my questions and found some

answers. So I'll start there.

 

I'm going to shoot a family (6 of them) indoor around a fire place.

They are going to have this blown up and put on canvas.

 

To get these people in the picture and in focus and filling out the

frame is a concern for me. I did a test with the N 80 and was not

happy at all. While some of the faces are in focus and sharp, others

are not. If I am reading the results of my search right, I really

need to set the camera to f22ish. I know that I want to get in as

close as I can, and that should not be a problem.. it's the focus.

 

ANY... any help on this is greatly appreciated..

 

I think that will cover it for now....

 

Thanks to all

Hi Thomas,<P>

 

What focal length are you using? Let's say you're using a 24mm lens. If you set the aperture to F/11 and the focus to roughly seven feet; everything from half that distance (3.5 feet) to the horizon will be in focus. This is called <I>hyperfocal distance</I> focusing, and it's very useful. <P>

 

Hyperfocal distance changes according to focal length and aperture. The best way - for all intents and purposes, the <I>only</I> way - to determine hyperfocal distance is with a <a href=http://www.nikonians.org/html/resources/guides/dof/hyperfocal1.html>chart</a>. When you have the hyperfocal distance set, things might look blurry in your viewfinder - but you can safely ignore that; trust the chart. (If you use your depth of field preview, however, you will see that everything is in focus.)

Which faces are not in focus? How are the 6 people arranged? All in a row or some behind the other? What lens are you using? If they are all in a row it might not be a DOF problem as it would be if they were some behind the other. What are you using for a flash? What film are you using? f/22 is a bit much and can cause other problems. 6 people is not alot. Give us some more information...

Hi.. Thanks a lot for your replies... I really did not expect a response so soon...

 

HAL..

 

I did several different takes, none are in a row so, so to speak. I just put it online for you to view. As for film, I used Kodak Select 100 speed (I think..). I used the nikkor lens.. 28mm is as wide as I can go. I did not use a flash all of the time, but when I did, it was the one built into the N80. I used AUTOFOCUS..

 

LINK: http://www.thomasgriffin.home.dixie-net.com/Rylee.jpg

 

 

Doug..

 

I'll look at the chart and give it a try. I know that if you look at the link you'll see that there is noway I can have that blown up...

 

 

TO BOTH OF YOU..

 

Thanks... really.

I wouldn't worry about hyperfocal focusing, because there's

no need to have everything sharp out to infinity on an indoor

portrait. If you're worried about limited depth of field, you

might as well have the rear limit of DoF be somewhere near the

back wall of the room -- maybe even closer.

<p>

Also, a 24mm lens isn't suitable for group pictures,

unless you want to put much-disliked in-laws at the corners of the

photo!

<p>

If your lens doesn't have a usable DoF scale (and since you're

using an N80, it's probably an autofocus lens that doesn't have

a good scale), use one of the many depth of field calculators

you can find via a web search. Set the aperture at around

f11 or f22, and make sure everyone is well within the DoF

limits you calculated. It help to arrange your subjects

so they're all relatively equidistant from the camera, though

the DoF at f11 to f22 should give you some flexibility in

the arrangement. Notice that the point where you focus is

a bit closer than the midpoint between front and rear

limits of DoF (a rule of thumb is to focus 1/3 of the way

into the DoF, but that rule can sometimes be quite wrong -- look up

the precise focus point using the DoF scale or DoF calculator).

<p>

Don't stop down much further than you have to -- you lose

sharpness due to diffraction at very small apertures.

<I>I wouldn't worry about hyperfocal focusing, because there's no need to have everything sharp out to infinity on

an indoor portrait. If you're worried about limited depth of field, you might as well have the rear limit of DoF be

somewhere near the back wall of the room -- maybe even closer.<P>

 

Also, a 24mm lens isn't suitable for group pictures, unless you want to put much-disliked in-laws at the corners

of the photo!</I><P>

 

The suggestion that hyperfocal distance focusing is restricted to outdoor use shows a grasp of the concept that is less than complete. The point is not, obviously, to have everything in focus at a distance - the point is to get as close as possible to his subjects and still have them be in focus. The reason I suggested this - and the reason I postulated a 24mm lens - is that, at the time I gave my answer, we didn't know what space he was trying to work in, or how close to his subjects he was forced to be. (And in fact many excellent group portraits have been taken with 24mm.) <P>

 

While a depth of field calculator could be helpful, it's doubtful he'll have one readily at hand in this and other situations where he needs to maximize depth of field. Nor would it be of any help when he needs to be closer than the minimum markings on the focus scale.<P>

 

Thomas, this situation is one where it would be good to turn off the autofocus and practice your manual focus technique. I suggest becoming familiar with both, depth of field calculation (in connection with which, you might also look into "zone" focusing), and, hyperfocal distance focusing. Let us know (or, better, see) how the portrait turns out.

OK..

 

I can do this angle... go to the link above.. I changed the pic..

 

Again, I really thank you all for your help..

Can't tell a damn thing from your scans. They are so soft I can't really tell what is in focus and what is not. (The boy on the left in the white sweater is out of focus??) Also, where did the "stars" come from? How much was done in PS?<p>

I usually shoot something like this at f/11. With a focal length of 50mm the focal length is over 9 feet, much more than enough for a shot like this. Again, where is the focus problem? Is the fireplace in focus? Is the candle in front in focus? If so it's not a DOF problem. If it's at the edges it's a crummy lens. Another thing comes to mind also. Since you were using available light(predominately)what was your shutter speed? Hopefully you were using a sturdy tripod since camera shake can come into play here. Subject movement can also be a problem. Like I said, I really can't tell very well but if only that one subject seems out of focus that's probably your problem.

Sorry about the softness, but that's the light in the room.. nothing I did. The stars are from a lens.. nothing has been done in PS.

 

I used the auto functions of the N80. I'm new to the camera.. I shoot more with manual cameras... In fact I just got the n80 7 days ago..

 

I'll tie a sand bag to the stand...

I agree with Hal - it's hard to tell anything from your posted image. Maybe it could use some sharpening in PS? Does the original look like this? If so, then I'd say you have a problem with your lens, with the camera body, with your technique, or with all three. <P>

 

Your statement that 28mm is as wide as you can go tells me that you are using a zoom, probably. The problem might very well be found there. If you can eliminate camera and technique as sources of the problem, that leaves only the optics. Have you tested this lens? <P>

 

If you set the camera on aperture priority, and set the aperture at, say, F8, what shutter speed does the camera indicate? If the body seems to be functioning okay, you need to look at technique.<P>

 

Obviously, you need a shutter speed that is sufficiently fast to handle some movement from these older children - I'd suggest 1/125, maybe 1/60, minimum -; while you also need a small enough aperture to provide sufficient depth of field. As Hal mentioned, a sturdy tripod wouldn't hurt, and depending on circumstances might be required.<P>

 

(If the lens and the body check out, that takes you back to technique - shutter speed and aperture and camera stability. To optimize all of them, you might try 400 speed film; or, using flash.)

<i>Sorry about the softness, but that's the light in the room.. nothing I did. The stars are from a lens.. nothing has been done in PS. </i>

<p>

You're using a 'star filter' aren't you? Take it off. These things can act like a 'soft focus' filter, and I'm sure that's at least part of your problem.

Todd..

 

Yes I used a star filter on THAT shot... but not for all of them... not for most. The softness is from that room.

 

 

Doug and Hal..

 

I did not use aperture priority.. I should have.. and will.

 

The image is soft.. All of them are soft.

I think part of the problem is the aperture. I let the camera decide.. I think it was at about 4.5 or 5.6. The sharpness and the focus on some of the faces is what I need to rid myself of..

 

I'll do some test to see if f22/flash will give the sharpness and do a self timer to check if it's me and the stand.

I think you may be asking a bit much from the ambient lighting and that puny built-in flash for f/22 and ISO 100 film. It's not necessary anyway. Yes, you should be shooting in aperture priority BUT what does the ambient lighting meter at? If the camera in auto chose f/4.5 @1/60 don't expect to use a smaller aperture without a corresponding longer shutter time. Less than 1/30 your subjects have to stay real still.

Thomas,

You've gotten a few good suggestions albeit the whole thing is getting a bit confusing. I think there are still some unanswered questions and several problems.

 

First, you said something like "I know I need to get as close as possible"--I have no idea why that would be. I'd suggest getting as far away as possible, get your back up against the farthest wall. Close-up forces you to use a wide angle lens which will distort the proportions depending on your camera position. Remember to think about a focal length in the 75-135mm range for portraits (that's not chisled in stone, but a good rule of thumb).

 

Next, did you use a tripod? Some of the softness may be due to trying to hand hold...that will only get worse at f22--which, BTW you really shouldn't need to use. The only advantage there is a longer exposure to allow you to see the fire better.

 

Next, camera angle...you're shooting up the chins and noses of everyone in the photo. Raise the camera height to at least the height of the mom's nose. Get mom to sit forward with a straight back. Rearrange the family to create a more pleasing pattern by their height-- a "check-mark" configuration is popular and effective.

 

Next, I think you're just gonna struggle and struggle if you don't get (borrow, buy, whatever) a strobe of some kind. Ideally studio strobes, at least a mono-light or an TTL dedicated flash you can take off camera to give some fill and try to overcome the nasty yellow color from the incandesent lights. The puny on-camera flash on the N-80 is worthless in this situation--I use it almost exclusively for outdoor fill-in on close-up subjects. You might try the shot in daylight if there is a window with good light (North facing?), a few sheets of foam-core could help fill-in as well.

 

Turn off the AF--period. You're shooting stationary subjects in low light apparently with a fairly slow lens--you have no clue where the focus will be when you take the shot. Focus very carefully on the eyes of the forwardmost person with an f/8 or f/11 aperture and you will have good DOF to the back person and a nice sharp focus. Make slight adjustments as needed, but with the family in the same spot and your camera on a tripod in the same spot you should not need to adjust more than very very slightly and you won't have to worry about whether the shot is in focus or not. You won't have to worry about slow shutter speeds, you won't have to worry about camera shake. You CAN worry about posing, lighting, and getting an accurate exposure (which should also be manually set BTW, making sure the bright fire doesn't affect your exposure--use that spot meter in the N80 and meter on some middle tone feature such as a gray or green shirt).

 

If you do all that, even with a fairly cheap lens I can definately assure you that you will have some very nice acceptable photos.

--evan

You mentioed that you were using the built-in Speedlight. That will add to your problems if you use a 28mm lens or wider.

 

Nikon claims that the built-in speedlight on the N80 will cover the area seen in a 28mm lens, but my experience indicates that the area of the flash is narrower--more like 35mm. Beg, borrow, or buy a full Speedlight like an SB-28 with variable-coverage area and you'll find that the results are more even.

 

Also, let me reiterate that you will probably want to back up and use a noraml lens or short telephoto. Other photogs have explained why, but they're correct. Pack a 28, 50, and 85 and shoot with all three lenses. When the film comes back, you'll see a qualitative difference and then you'll know how to achieve desired effects with each lens.