Why the M7 is garbage in the hands of a good photographer

First of all, excuse the title; just trying to get your attention.

 

Am I missing something, or is it true that the M7 lacks exposure

compensation for its AE? If so, then the AE is useless when the user

sees an image that requires something other than the meter's

reading. She can switch to manual, but then isn't that a waste of

time, having to turn the shutter speed dial and possibly the aperture

ring again, in order to over/under? ANY decent 'pro' camera

(perjoratively described) has exposure compensation in addition to AE.

 

-m6 user

Where did you get that idea? You ARE missing something. Of course, the M7 has exposure

compensation. It's at the back, around the same dial as the DX and ISO wheel. The M7 also has

AE lock, if you want to meter elsewhere in the frame and then reframe. Garbage? Think twice. ;-)

Relax. The M7 has exposure compensation in the way of a nice, convenient dial with locking button, on the back. Even if it didn't, you could use the ISO dial to apply compensation. That all said, the way I do it is to shift the finder around until the shutter speed goes to wherever the right compensation would be, lock the reading, recompose and shoot. Unless you're shooting at the beach or snow, I find it more trouble to set and un-set compensation.

Thank you. I was not aware.

I'll preface this by saying that I don't have, nor have I ever used an M7.

 

It seems to me that the issue of Metering and Auto-focus are are the two things that most people attribute to Leicas in general, as design flaws.

 

I could not disagree more. Auto-Metering, no mater how sophisticated, does not ensure a "perfect photo". It may give the photographer a false sense of security making them think that anything they point their camera at will come out perfectly exposed. It won't. Meters, are not perfect, no mater how advanced they are. Unless I missed some new generation mind-link metering system, the camera will NEVER know what it is you want to render as a mid tone. It can make some assumptions, run some algorythms etc, but My brain is better at that than a $5 mircro-chip.

 

Same goes for Auto Focus. How would a camera know what I want to be perfectly in focus?

 

I don't consider a camera that requires the user to think for himself, a liability. I don't need a machine to tell me how to take a photo. All I need is my machine to do what it's told and leave the thinking up to me. I am the photographer. The machine is just there to hold the film and let the light in.

 

I wonder if painters ever wished their brushes would pick their colors, make their strokes, decide on composition for them...?

 

So far as a "pro" camera goes... if "Pros" need everything automated, packaged and done for them... what makes them a "pro"? Seems to me, if your camera does everything for you.. then a pro is just someone who "shows up".

>Auto-Metering, no mater how sophisticated, does not ensure a "perfect photo".<

 

Absolutely agree. And this is the main reason I jumped on the M7's AE. Like Bob stated, it allows ME to make the decision as to what I want rendered as medium-toned in the image, and as Jay stated I can now do it by pointing at that object, pressing the shutter button half-way down, recomposing and firing. All of which takes less time than it did for you to read that last sentence -- far faster than with the M6. And of course when the light isn't changing, I can "lock" in my exposure just like I did with the M6's by going into manual mode on the M7.

 

Cheers,

I never had any problem geitting good exposures with my M2/M3/M4 bodies. It's really easy to upgrade the metering system with the latest technology. I can choose narrow angle spot or my favorite, incident light metering. No distracting arrows, needles, or blinking lights in the viewfinder to distract from my subject. When the last battery dies my back-up meter, a Weston Master V, still tells me the correct exposure. Perhaps instead of wishing for smarter cameras we'd be better off learning how to use reliable meterless cameras that do what we tell them to do. It's easier to just set a manual camera than to figure out how to over ride the automation.

"So far as a "pro" camera goes... if "Pros" need everything automated, packaged and done for them... what makes them a "pro"? Seems to me, if your camera does everything for you.. then a pro is just someone who "shows up"."

 

Well, different people have different needs. I regularly shoot performing musicians under stage lighting that is constantly changing -- lights come on, lights go off, performers move around on stage from brighter to darker areas. In these situations, AE is a Godsend -- I dial in appropriate compensation (e.g., musicians in black clothing require minus compensation), set the camera to aperture priority and go wide open (the light is usually low), and let the camera worry about the rest. I not only do NOT have to be constantly tweaking the settings, and hence instead can focus on capturing the right moments, but I also get all the lens speed possible -- which does not often occur when in manual mode, as I may end up at, say, 1/125th and f2.5 with an f2 lens, and without intermediate shutter speeds I am unable to exploit that extra half-stop of lens speed, for which I paid dearly. Note that this method requires just as much knowledge of correct exposure as using manual settings, but takes intelligent advantage of AE.

 

By the way, this method results in exposures which are as accurate as any I get by manual metering, it is easier, and many of the resulting pics are sold and published -- so there's a "pro" use of AE. And motor drives help too, and some folks find AF beneficial in these circumstances.

bob, the pro is the camera, hence, professional camera! 8^)

Jack, Hate to disagree with you. If you turn your M7 to the area to be

AE metered, lock, then recompose and shoot, you have to do it again

exactly the same way for each successive shot. Meanwhile, my M6

stayed where I originally set it and I keep shooting until the light

significantly changes. I love my M7, but let's be fair to the strengths of

the M6.

First I think that Leica has a website at http://www.leica.com/ and they have a page there with the technical details for the M7, here I'll ehlp with that to: http://www.leica-camera.com/produkte/msystem/m7/tecdat/index_e.html. Now I am not sure why I needed to do that. Obviously you are online. I mean you did manage to post that horribly unfair title. Oh, something that I know nothing about, I will call it "garbage".

 

You all wonder why some people get on here questioning the occasional snobbery of this group.

 

My understanding is that the M7, yes with a battery for all speeds except 1/60 and 1/125, can be used identically to an M3. You know you set the aperture on the lens and then you turn the shutter speed dial. Now you still get to use your Pilot 2 (also no battery, a digital light meter would be a bit hypocritical right). For those who want to get very nicely exposed images faster you can opt to use the AE mode. Something the other M's can't do.

 

So if you are deciding, I believe it goes like this. Which is more important to you. Non-battery manual operation, battery required for the meter but not for the shutter or battery required for the meter and the shutter (except 1/60 and 1/125).

 

Personally when I use my M6 non ttl I miss the shutter speed in the display. I like seeing it. My regret is that in their effort to maintain backward compatibility they couldnot show the aperture in the viewfinder, maybe on the M8.

I dunno...all I know is that today at lunch my local shop had a black M7 on the counter next to literally two dozen lovely screwmount and a couple of early M cameras that were being appraised. One of the screwmounts had a perfect Midland-made Stemar on it - lovely machines. And I took note that not a soul was looking at the M7, but were completely engrossed by the collection of screwmounts. I know I was.

<b>A title with a strong emotion producing hook will win

attention.<br><br></b>

Al made an interesting point that it is easier to use an external

meter and set the camera directly from interpreting that, than to

make the effort to overcome automation to get to manual or

compensated settings, and as added further down, to have to

keep re-overcoming it. <br><br>

I have been learning to use my IIIf and using a new incident and

spot meter over the last week or so. I have also been going

through my "backlog" of equipment and shooting some of my

"semi-discarded" gear. I did find a classic moment of being

blocked by automation with a Pentax PZ-1 with a Viviatar Series

1 MF 19-35 lens. Having sat down the night before and read that

whole user manual through for the first time in at least ten years,

I got stuck. That camera has some favourable comments on its

ease for compensation of either speed or aperture. I forgot one

simple step - turning body to manual from single focus. It would

not let me fire the shutter since it did not believe I was in focus. It

hadn't got feisty when I was aimed at the horizon, but tilted down

at f11 at 19mm it grew attitude. Much new vocabulary could have

been learned by young sailors at that moment. In its defense, it

has a custom function to set shutter speed increments from 1/3

speed intermediate increments to 1/2 speed increments. It

also has about the loudest shutter on the planet. <br><br><b>

Back to Leica and manual RF in general. </b> - You use your

meter and your brain and set the camera, then you can relax and

focus and compose until what you are aiming at has different

incident light level. Which is mighty nice. I have noticed a true zen

state of shooting with the IIIf, relaxed but alert and paying

attention to the composition after having easily settled the

technical question of exposure.<br><br>regards BG

my soul claim to fame as a Leica user is I live about ten miles

from the old Leitz plant in Midland, Ontario, Canada

sorry, the M7 metering mode and methodology is paleolithic compared to anything offered by Canon (or Nikon, or Contax ...) in their SLR offering. should you want to get serious about metering, you must provide several metering options (including spot-metering) and a convenient way to bias the exposure. the M7 affords an averaged guesstimate at best, and any compensation required erodes its value at being 'fast and accurate'. I take the Canon EOS quick-command dial as offering the ultimate solution, and I don't have to recompose and re-meter within multiple frame exposures.

 

yes, the M7 has exposure compensation, but it is poorly implemented. just like my $7k Hasselblads.

Marc: You are welcome to disagree all you want! If I'm doing that kind of repetitive shooting, I can always put my M7 in match-arrow manual mode, and shoot just like I did with the M6. At least I have the option with my M7 ;>)

dan -- putting a sophisticated metering system in the m7 would be like installing tiptronic in my john deere. the m7 is not the tool to use for making chromes off a tripod (although people can use it that way -- i suppose people go to proms in their dad's john deere too). it, like all leica RFs snce the null, is designed for quick, unobtrusive reportage style photography. sure you can use it for other things, but inevitably there are better cameras for other kinds of photographic tasks -- usually involving formats larger than 9 sqare mm!!! the meter in the 7 is perfect for getting a quick read before snapping a shot. anything fancier would slow you down, and that is not what the m is about. and on the general topic of spot meters in cameras -- always a bad idea i think. the spots are never narrow enough, always bleed, and necessarily vary in size depending on focal length of lens mounted. if you really need a spotmeter, you need a handheld meter.

roger,

 

I generally agree with your comments excepting the spot-meter personal opinion. the spot metering on my EOS-1v is grand and exacting. my comments regarding the M7 metering are only to say the implementation, in its form, is limiting.

 

> if you really need a spotmeter, you need a handheld meter

 

hogwash

Well - What almost everyone else who posted have overlooked is:

 

(a) The M7 can work in an AE role, with excellent shutter speed capability.

 

(b) The M7 can work in a shutter speed preferred role, with excellent shutter speed control and exposure accuracy.

 

© The M7 can be used in a completely manual mode (a la M4) with shutter speeds thatare clearly beyond the accuracy of the M2-3-4 cameras.

 

So - what is everyone griping about with respect to the M7? You can use the doggone thing any way you like, but with much better shutter speed accuracy. For chrome shooters, that's a very good plus!

"a convenient way to bias the exposure"<br>

Yes, this is one of my (minor) complaints with my M7. The exposure compenstation wheel on the back is useless when the camera is at eye level.

I got an M7 recently, and I think it's fantastic ... as such, I do not see where the "crisis" over AE versus manual comes from when many people discuss the M7 and M6. If you fail to use a handheld lightmeter, and you're using manual metering on an M6, or manual or AE on an M7, you are still putting your trust in an electronic metering device to evaluate the aperture/shutter combination. Obviously, you need to think about what light source seen through the viewfinder which you want the spot meter to measure in manual mode. This is no different in AE in the M7 ..... you STILL need to carefully THINK what part of your final picture you need to meter, and you select a shutter/aperture combo ((ie, via help from the same sort of Leica "electronic" light meter which would help you in manual mode in the M6) and then recompose with a touch on the shutter prior to taking the picture. My conclusion: We've been reliant on "trusting" the meter in the "oh so manual" M6 for years, and it gives identical readings (of course) as the M7 in AE when we apply the same thought to the picture taking process. I thrashed the camera around recently in Peru for a few weeks, it got rained and snowed on (and no, the camera didn't pack up because it's a bit more electronic than the M6, and no, I wasn't stranded in the Andes with no operable camera because the batteries failed - I always thought that was a ridiculous argument against the M7: after all, if you don't have spare batteries with an M6 and you forget your handheld meter, you're hardly gonna be able to get good pictures when it's difficult lighting, unless you're brilliant in assessing exposure by eye) ... but when I only had time to "point and shoot" at some amazing event unfolding in front of me in neutral light, the exposure was bang on on slide film ..... yeah, i would have needed to expose in manual mode on the M7 and M6, or better still used a hand-held meter, if the light in the viewfinder was tricky, but then I would probably have missed the unique shot altogether. My 2 cents worth! :)

Nonsense... you don't have to be brilliant at anything to figure out the proper exposure without a meter.

 

Look at this link...

http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm

 

Most people think that the Sunny 16 rule is for beginners, but it's actually just the opposite. If you can remember a couple of simple starting points for ANY exposure ( sunny sixteen outside and 10 ev lower for indoor lighting) you can take any picture you want.

 

One would think there was never a decent photo taken in all of history until the built in camera meter was invented.

 

Well, it ain't true. Ansel Adams literally "snapped" the photo later entitled "Moon Over Hernandez" in about 3 mintues with a field camera and no meter whatsoever. He remembered that the proper exposure for a full moon was EV 14, knew he was going to manipulate the neg later and exposed at EV 12. No meter, no tables in hand, nothing but a camera, a piece of un-exposed emulsion and a brain.

 

An onboard computer is going to give you the same results as you own intellect will ( they were, afterall, man made, and based on the same exposure tables, concept and standards etched in stone a bajillion years ago when photographic emulsions were first produced). Spot metering, Martix metering, Averaging, Pre-Programmed modes are all based on the same fundamental rules that it takes a certain amount of light to expose a particular speed of film.

 

Color and Black and White negative film have such enourmous latitude, that so long as you're in the ballpark, who cares? Color slide film admittedly requires more precision, but a camera meter is going to lie to you at every opportunity. Why not take the photo once, correctly, instead of choosing a three stop expusure auto bracket?

 

To say that a Multi-Matrix eye movement tracking metering system with automatic compensation, neural network interface is required to take a great photo is just silly. Most people interested in Leica intentionally avoid that kind of thing. I personally have not touched my N90S since getting an M6. The one time I THOUGHT it might be usefull to take some quick and dirty portraits for a friend in urgent need, the darn thing felt like a borg implant, buzzing, beeping, blinking, overriding everything I did. I set it aside, took the batteries out and used my M6 (which incedentally had no usable battery in it ) and finished the shoot.

 

I don't buy the "it's faster" arguement either. It takes no more time turn the aperture ring or shutter speed dial from a single exposure than it does to compose, change composition, meter, then recompose using AE.

 

Sorry about the rant, but I believe people get soft in the head when they leave all the thinking up to machines.

 

good light to you all.... however you may measure it.

dan -- the facts remain: (1) there is no such thing as a well baffled in-camera 1 degree spot; (2) anything larger than 1 degree starts looking like an averaging meter in many applications. indeed a wide angle spot meter is of very little use in almost any application (3) the angle of view in an in camera spot necesarily varies with focal length of viewing lens; and (4) it is rare to take spot meter readings in situations where you are shooting quickly -- typically a spot meter is deployed in conjunction with zone system work, etc. in these situations you have time to use a separate meter.